Why isnt Hayley popular in the US?

[stevemacdonald]

Another possibility occurs to me: Since Hayley's success in the UK was already assured before her stint in the states, perhaps her style was unwittingly skewed toward British tastes. The British media embraced her unassuming and modest ways, playing up the pureness of both her voice and her behaviour. The early media buzz in America came from that perception -- in fact the major NY Times article about her was penned in England. As we later realised, an image of innocence that worked flawlessly on British soil could never take root this side of the pond.

[martindn]

Hi Steve,

You have me wondering what makes you think that. I'm not convinced that innocence doesn't work of there, you have a long tradition of child stars, particularly female ones. Jackie Evancho is simply the latest of many.
And I'm not convinvced it works flawlessly here either.
After all, Hayley's VOICE is what won me over, long before I know anything about her image.
Of course, for that to work, you need to appeciate music for its own sake. I'm not convinced that the majority of people on either side of the pond do that.
I think Hayley appeals to people, wherever they are, who love to hear a great voice. Yes, I admit I love her image too, but that for me came long after I had been convinced by her voice. To me the voice is simply a beautiful manifestation of a beautiful person.
So Americans who love a great voice will love her too. Those who look for other things in a singer, probably the majority in this visually oeriented age, might not. The question is simply whether there are enough of them within striking distance of a concert venue to make it worth her while performing there.
I think is is difficult for a foreign artist to break into America. Few manage it, but since Hayley has something that no other artist, either American or otherwise has (to my ears at least), she stands a chance.

Martin D

[chantelle]

Randomly jumping in with my two cents-- as I am prone to do.

You all seem to be arguing back and forth in a vicious circle regarding TWO points. 1) Hayley's voice, and 2) Hayley's image.

So far I haven't seen anyone give much thought to Hayley's *music*. Not her voice / musical ability / talent, but her actual style of music and her *musical* image (as opposed to her "personality" image.)

I don't know where Hayley gets shelved in UK stores, but you know where she is in US stores-- if anywhere? Easy listening. Yep, right next to the hodge-podge mix of Sinatra and Barry Manilow and Streisand and Donny Osmond and all of those quote-unquote "boring" artists that the MAJORITY of the young, record-buying populace is not interested in. Personally I love Sinatra and Streisand, but I am in a minority. Obviously it's important that that minority does exist-- but our few numbers aren't going to knock Lady Gaga or Katy Perry off the charts-- neither is the "minority" of Hayley fans in the US going to put her at #1 on the charts.

And why? Not because people don't appreciate her voice, and not because people think her image is boring. But it's because THE STYLE OF MUSIC HAYLEY CHOOSES TO PERFORM (pardon the all-caps) is considering boring to the majority of American audiences-- particularly the age group that is most likely to shell out their hard-earned cash for music.

[mihizawi]

If that's the case, Steve, and that's one of the reasons why she didn't made it, then I don't think Hayley would ever want to change that image of modest and down to earth artist... But Jackie seems to be projecting the same image, maybe less shy and more charming than Hayley, but in many aspects very similar... Let's see how it works.

Also, even among the most successful teen-stars in the US there are examples of relative modesty... I have an example: Selena Gomez... Well, both on artistical and personal level, you can't really compare her to Hayley, Hayley is at a much higher level. Selena has a nice (at least to me) pop voice, but there's no need to say how low she would end if I even tried to compare her to Hayley... Also, while Selena, from what I have seen, is relatively modest for the kind of stardom she has achieved, Hayley has always been perfectly humble and down to earth, to a very rare level. I think Selena is 18 or 19 now, and seeing her talk and act, I realize how mature Hayley was at that age. Hayley, although discrately, has always looked, talked and behaved as if she was several years older compared to the standards of her age. Anyway, as far as my limited following of all the Disney Channel and other teen-hollywood starrs allows me I consider that Selena is the most worth my attention (in all aspects: music, acting and personality)... And I thought I would share a couple of videos that I think can be relevannt here, as they touch some points we have discussed. Both of them are a part of a interview-documentary about Selena's experiences in her tours through Europe.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0frdSqCLRXg - Here is an example of that modesty... I think the way she talks about her fans is a little bit Hayleyish (but somehow I can't imagine Hayley ending up in tears in an interview)... So, if we see that kind of modesty and consideration for fans in such a famous star, there's no reason to think Hayley's humility could have been a negative thing in the US... But I think Hayley's discretion could be much more the reason...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpvfpLjjcIE&feature=channel - And discretion leads me to the second video, the next part of the documentary... Here Selena makes a statement on something that was already mentioned here, and I think is one of the most relevant points on Hayley's popularuty in the US. Selena says "But I do find the US is more into the pop culture stuff, more into what I am wearing and, you know, who who I am seeing with and things like that, which can be frustrating but understandable at the same time"... It has been stated and agreed that US fans are more obsessive... Here, we talk about what Hayley is wearing, and even we mentioned her boyfriend a few times, but we've never done so in an intrusive way... I am not sure if Hayley would find the US "pop culture" as understandable as Selena... But, oh, well, it will be her decision, and maybe she will be able to make it to the US without sacrificing her discretion, although I think certainly it is hard.

Michal

[martindn]

Hi Chantelle,

Yes, I can see were you are coming from. There needs to be some sort of hook at least perhaps.

The reason I think I and I suspect other fans don't say too much about the music is that with a voice like Hayley's, it doesn't matter what she sings. With her it is the singer, not the song that matters.

The problem might often be that a lot of people can't get their brain round that. They think they won't enjoy Hayley because of genre descrimination, something that I must say again, at the risk of annoying Nicola, does Hayley and other versatile artists more harm than good.

There are people out there that think "Hayley = Opera Singer", and "I don't like opera". So they think they don't like Hayley.

I too like Sinatra and Streisand, although I don't really care for their style of music or Streisands NY accent - I just recognise that they are both very good at what they do, and that trancends their material. Hayley is far more versatile than either and can and sing anything just about, it is just that a lot of people have never looked at her enough to know that. In some ways she is a lot like Eva Cassidy, another versatile singer who refused to specialise in a particular genre and never achieved her potential because of it.

In fact Hayley is quite radical, if you really do want to concentrate on her material. Her music a celebration of love and life, not a tale of darkness and despair. She celebrates life, rather than complains about injustice. For some people I know that is not "edgy" enough, but they fail to realise that a sufficiently positive outlook can overcome those negative things. That's what Hayley has, and it is the key to enjoying life. Yes, that's a bit philosophical I know, but wouldn't you rather enjoy your life that drown in self-pity over the injustices you think you have suffered? That's what so many seem to miss.

And there ARE young people who like easy listening artists like Sinatra and Streisand. Those two sell (or sold) quite well enough to make touring in America worthwhile. So why not Hayley too, who in comparison suffers only from the effect of not being American.

I agree that the die hard Gangsta Rap fans probably won't like Hayley. But some people will, and in a country as large as America there would probably be enough if they knew about her.

Martin D

[mihizawi]

Oh, and by the way, while I was writing about Selena, you, Chantelle have hit a very important point... However, in Europe or even in the UK itself, Hayley's music is also minoritary, but, yet, she has an established career in the UK... I think it is the proportion: the american minority that would listen to Hayley's style of music compared to the total population of the USA is much more insignificant than in the UK or in most European countries... So, in the UK that minority is more profitable than in the USA... However, I don't think it is impossible for Hayley to tour the US every now and then with limited success appealing to that minority.

And, yes, I think MartinD's point on that US market is much harder for foreigners than in any other country... Afterall, it is mostly you, Americans, who tell the world who is a star and who is not...

Michal

[chantelle]

Martin,

Okay, I can understand enjoying Hayley purely (no pun intended!) based on the quality of her voice-- I used to be a real stickler for a "pretty" voice as well-- but as time goes by I am more and more forgiving of vocal imperfections as long as the music/message speaks to me.

Not only do I love Sinatra & Streisand's voices-- it's their style that I TRULY love. And the same goes for someone like Billie Holiday-- her voice is honestly atrocious, but her *music* and passion is so exquisitely beautiful that I love it.

Maybe that's a unique American aesthetic. We in America have our blues and our original "rock & roll" and our gospel and our rhythm & blues (not to be confused with modern R&B!) and our folk singers (Bob Dylan, anyone!?) where it wasn't so much the voice, but the music being performed that mattered.

Just a thought. As I said, I completely see your point but from where I sit in America... it takes more than just a pretty voice.

I agree, Hayley has many qualities of the lovely songstresses of the 60s & 70s-- we've seen this in her love for Joni Mitchell. Which is why I would love to see Hayley pursue her own original music-- I think that would afford her much more success in the "commercial" mainstream.

Regarding considering Hayley "radical" in her material... Um, maybe I'm of this opinion because the US gets the dumbed-down versions of her albums, but really, how is the 1 millionth cover of "Danny Boy" radical at all? Sorry, but that's just not something I'm interested in paying money to see in concert, no matter HOW brilliant the singer!

And Michael, yes, I think in any comparison of the US vs. the UK it's the HUGE difference in population / proportion that throws all the calculations off. And I've always said that Hayley's best bet in the US would be to tour "specialty" circuits rather than trying to fill arenas.

[milewalker]

I note a couple of you have mentioned Jackie Evancho in this context. One obvious point seems simple to me, and may be getting missed here. When you are 10 years old, there is a natural expectation of innocence - in fact Charlotte Church traded off of that image until she was about 15. At some point around there it stops working in most cases. Not that it becomes a negative - it just becomes less and less relevant.

There are some partial exceptions. Country and Western music has a fan base which may still be a little more culturally conservative than the rest of the country - which may help someone like Taylor Swift. There is also the Disney stable which markets a mass produced kind of innocence to little girls and their mothers.... Unfortunately, people like Selena come and go pretty regularly as Disney will only be interested in them while their demographic holds. Hayley btw was associated with Radio Disney for a time in 2004. It didn't work for her any better than anything else.

Chantelle is largely correct, I think. Most Americans would think that Hayley's music was boring. I had some direct evidence of this when her New Zealand concert was playing during a pledge drive on our local PBS station. The hosts just weren't connecting - one of them kept calling her Kelly Westenra, and sadly, the phones weren't ringing either.

[Libby]

Oct 3, 2010 15:12:51 GMT Elliot Kane said:

He's also right that Hayley was already a known and successful solo artist before CW. Don't forget that Pure was the fastest selling Classical debut in the UK in the last century and that was long before CW.

Not saying CW did nothing to help boost her career, but I don't think any positive effect it did have could really be considered major, be it in the US or anywhere else.

Yes, I think most of us are aware of her success before she joined CW. That's what I meant when I said she was already a breakout star. Maybe she wasn't a breakout star here, but she certainly got some attention for a while. She even won an award here that Josh Groban won when he first became successful.

As for the fans gained by her joining CW:

Remember, Hayley was in the New Journey show for PBS, not to mention the DVD! PBS is how people discovered Celtic Woman, is it not? Where else would they hear about them? And then think of all the people who go to the shows. If you've never been to one, I guess you can't. But believe me, it's a lot. Of course now they occasionally appear on American TV shows. Even Hayley was on the Martha Stewart show with them! I posted the video on the CW with Hayley thread several months ago.
The CW forum even has a special section for Hayley. So there are plenty of fans of CW who also love Hayley. They also adore Lisa, Chloe, Mairead, and the others, and I'm sure many of them have their solo albums, too. Just because Hayley's popularity didn't really soar with CW, there are lots of fans who did become a fan from this. Most seem to be just as amazed at her singing as they are when they discover her other ways. At the very least, most CW fans know who she is because of CW, even if they don't pay attention to her every move. They don't all treat her as just another member of CW.

[milewalker]

Libby,

If Hayley got any tangible benefits from her involvement with Celtic Woman, why were the US sales of Celtic Treasure so poor?

[Elliot Kane]

Libby,

I'm still agreeing with Jon. If CW raised Hayley's profile as spectacularly as you seem to think, why isn't she noticeably more successful now than she was before CW?

I'm not knocking CW or Hayley in any way, here, but I think you are over-estimating any advantage Hayley may have gained from working with CW.

[Libby]

Oct 3, 2010 20:47:27 GMT chantelle said:

But it's because THE STYLE OF MUSIC HAYLEY CHOOSES TO PERFORM (pardon the all-caps) is considering boring to the majority of American audiences-- particularly the age group that is most likely to shell out their hard-earned cash for music.

I don't really agree with this. You make it sound as though because her CDs are put with "boring" music, that means her music is every bit as boring as theirs is thought to be. Her songs are not the style of music that those artists sing. What about Michael Buble and Josh Groban's CDs? Where do they put those? Couldn't they put Hayley's with theirs? Even if they're in the same section, if they'd just put hers next to theirs, that would at least guarantee younger ladies would see it. I usually don't go to music stores, so I don't really know.

I admit I used to think some operatic arias like In Trutina were kind of boring. I didn't even care for Hayley's version that much at first. So I can see what you mean there. Some people are bored by classical songs.

The age group you seem to be referring to are not always old enough to have "hard-earned" cash. There are many younger people who don't even pay for their music! Middle-aged people usually make money, and they're the ones who are more likely to listen to Hayley's music.

Hayley's songs are not boring!

I'm not sure why you say that Hayley's U.S. releases are "dumbed-down". What is so bad about them? Sure, I like Treasure better than Celtic Treasure, but I still enjoy the songs that are on CT. What about Pure? Because it doesn't have "My Heart and I", it's dumb? And Odyssey had You Are Water, a song no other version has, and it's one of the best songs on Odyssey.

I don't expect her to fill arenas, but small theaters might be nice.

[Libby]

I never said Hayley's success here was spectacular. I don't know where you got that from. I just think she would've missed out on a lot of U.S. fans she wouldn't have had otherwise. I didn't expect her to make the charts, or to sell as many albums as she did with Pure. The number of fans she did get might not be significant by music industry standards, or apparently not any of your standards, but it's significant to me. Every little thing helps! I am happy with any little thing that brings Hayley to people's attention.

[Elliot Kane]

Libby,

That's several times now you've mentioned 'a lot' of new fans gained for Hayley through CW. Personally, I would say that any artist who gained 'a lot' of new fans from one tour had gained a pretty spectacular success thereby, wouldn't you?

However, I see no evidence whatsoever that 'a lot' would be an accurate description. A few, yes, undoubtedly. But 'a lot' would have made a significant impact on her US sales. The fact that Celtic Treasure didn't even chart, despite being very much in the style of CW, leads me to conclude that while a lot of CW fans may indeed have loved hearing Hayley sing with CW, that didn't actually translate into being fans of solo Hayley, nor into buying her albums.

Again, not knocking CW or Hayley. I love the show and YouTubed the heck out of it until I got the DVD (And for me to buy music DVDs that are not Operetta is virtually unknown. I have three that did not come packaged with albums).

Nonetheless, I still can't see any reason to think that Hayley's solo career was helped to any significant degree by her time with CW.

[Libby]

Okay, so maybe it really isn't a lot. I guess I say that because "a lot" of the U.S. fans, especially newer members, on the official forum, say they found her because of CW.

So maybe her solo career wasn't helped that much, but at least "a few" more people at least know who she is because of CW, and therefore are more likely to check her out again in the future. As I said, every little bit helps.

Uggh, I'm getting a little weary of this discussion, so I think I'm done with this.. for now.