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Post by spiderman on Feb 3, 2011 7:13:54 GMT
Hi Spiderman I stand by my statement that people who don't live here may not understand the tastes of Americans. Obviously I don't share their tastes as I have made seven trips to the U k to see Hayley. the fact that you've made 7 trips to the UK is evidence you don't share the tastes of people who don't live in the USA? contradictory much?  . or you dont share your fellow americans tastes? Since you are american, it follows logically that you dont share your own taste... funny it isnt for you to presume to re-interpret my thoughts for me. i meant what i said. i dont think even the US needs another pop princess, so no i dont see pop as a long term career option for Hayley; country might be of some interest since its something new for her; but i dont believe it is as much as a showcase for her talents as it might be. There isnt that much talent in the US... . emily, the DCX, jewel, the cactus cuties; argueably connie talbot; there are alot of popular acts that flare up and disappear like the stars they want to be... i wouldnt use the word "talented" or "quality" to describe them though. Never confuse the popular with the talented. why [other than compassion] would she bother? on the basis of your arguement, i cant see any point in hayley wasting her talents trying to be popular in the US. unless she wants to save you from yourselves the spiderman |
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Post by xanadu66 on Feb 3, 2011 14:11:35 GMT
There is one major reason that I believe Hayley should stay in London rather than moving her base of operations to Japan: access to the markets. The US, Japan and UK are the three largest markets for albums, in that order (For singles, it's Japan, UK, US). If you are big in either the US or the UK, you will automatically gain the attention of the other two markets. Hello Elliot, I pretty much agree with the first part of that, or at least am prepared to take your word for it, but I wouldn’t say that gaining attention in the other two markets is guaranteed. Surely it still takes a concerted effort to really become established? The name may be known but little more than that IMO. If you are big in Japan, the other two markets will not even notice you. I know that sounds horrible, but it's true. That, I can totally believe but it wasn’t the reason why I feel it would benefit her to base herself in Japan for a while. My reason was to enable her to capitalise on her popularity there so she is almost guaranteed to have a very successful year financially. That would give her the means to tour the US during which time she would not be earning money in the UK or elsewhere. As to why she hasn't set the world ablaze, I blame that on very poor strategy by the people behind her. She has not been pushed anywhere near aggressively enough and her team's internet strategy is non-existent. Her official sites are universally appalling, she has no official link disallowed channel and anyone wanting up to date information on her is better off here at HWI Totally agree with you there. As for album strategy, I think you have named part of the problem: infrequent albums. The best gap between albums seems to be 1 1/2 to two years. Longer than that and people drift away, as you say (And no, Xmas albums don't count), while less than that means interest does not have time to build again. Some do get away with yearly releases, but it's rare for that to be a sustainable rate. Exactly. An artist is given a contact for x million pounds for y albums but I am not aware that any indication of timescale is agreed. It should be and everything else (like concert tours) should fit around it. I believe Hayley’s contract was originally for five albums which I expected would be produced in something like seven or eight years (from the release date of the first one). We are only a few months away from the eight year mark and there are still only three (I agree the Christmas one doesn’t count). It is taking way too long and, as I said yesterday, most fans will give up and move on. The OTHER part of the problem is the ridiculous number of different editions of every album, which must make it very confusing for anyone who has heard a specific track and wants to find the album that has it. Some of her best work not being released internationally (The HSJS albums) really doesn't help, either. I have all of Hayley's albums. I'm not sure I have even 2/3 of her songs. That's absurd. I am guessing there may be a contractual reason for that or perhaps copyrights issues about which my knowledge is limited so I won’t comment too much. But I don’t agree that the Japanese albums would have sold in sufficient quantity anywhere outside Japan to make their release worthwhile. Yes of course a few dedicated fans would have bought them but most probably did anyway (by importing them). I don’t think additional sales had they been released in the UK or US would have made any significant difference to her current status as an artist. So yeah, there are vast amounts of things that could be improved, but I don't think the failure is Hayley's. She simply needs a team around her who are not content with thinking of her as a niche artist and want to promote her properly on the world stage. Oh sure, I wasn’t suggesting that Hayley has done anything wrong. But I am sure it is time to re-think her position and to inject some new energy. Her new management team may well be exactly what she needs. |
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Post by xanadu66 on Feb 3, 2011 14:12:22 GMT
I have seen records on the Schedules pages that she was in the US on at least 8 separate occasions including three months with Celtic Woman. Why would she have done any of that if she wasn’t interested in breaking into the US market? A fair question. Hayley was much younger then. She was still finding her way in the world and did not have the very deep roots she has since put down in London. Fair comment Roger, but it still implies that she wanted to break into the US market at that time and I see no reason why that would have changed. Unless you have heard something that I haven’t! RogerG How could you possibly endeavor to know what Hayley wants or doesn't want to do with her career? I don’t suppose any of us know with any certainty. Again, the fact that she has been based so far from home (in NZ) for so long implies that she is determined to be as successful as possible internationally. She can only do that by breaking into new markets. RogerG How could you possibly endeavor to know what Hayley wants or doesn't want to do with her career? Larry Of course I can't Larry. None of us can. That's precisely why I was questioning the apparent assumption that she might want to move to the US or Asia. I don't think anyone is necessarily assuming that even though, for reasons I have just explained, it is not an unreasonable assumption. And by the same token, I don't understand why you are implying that she wouldn't. For any serious artist that, with respect, makes no sense. |
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Post by xanadu66 on Feb 3, 2011 14:13:02 GMT
Yes, we will have to disagree. I would never have bought any of Hayley's albums if I hadn't first heard her voice - live. Many of the songs on Pure I had never heard before - how would I know if I liked them or not? How do you ever get to buy an album that has songs on it you have never heard, if the music is paramount? I don’t. It is highly unlikely that I would be unfamiliar with any of the songs – I am not saying I have to know all of them. On the very rare occasions that I know none of them, I listen to sample clips online, I may hear a few tracks on radio or perhaps on a television appearance. The last album was purchased as a result of having seen a TV ad. Any of those means would be enough for me to make a judgement. But to buy an album without knowing I will like at least some of the tracks just because I like the singer would be like buying a car without test driving it just because I like the colour! Remember, Hayley has said over and over again, that she loves singing. And I am sure she loves her artistic freedom too. She is making a living doing what she is doing, so would she really want to go off in a direction that didn't appeal to her artistically to try to crack America or anywhere else? Somehow I doubt it. Of course we wouldn’t. I don’t think anyone has suggested otherwise. Nobody here is telling her what to do against her will. We are merely discussing our own opinions of what might be beneficial to her career as a singer. It's what fans do. However there are still plenty of people in America who love Hayley AS SHE IS. I repeat, she doesn't need to change, she can still be true to herself, she just needs proper promotion. I don’t know about “plenty”. There are quite a few as the membership of this site appears to confirm but there are not enough. If there was sufficient demand for her – in huge numbers - she would have been snapped up for a major tour or TV appearances several years ago. Yes, proper promotion is needed but, no matter where that is in the world, it can take a huge amount of her time – time when she is not earning money by giving concerts and that is the “risk” to which I was referring in my earlier posts. At the moment, she cannot afford to go to the US for a few months to make the tour that our US friends would like. I can't inagine that Hayley would want to move to Asia or even the US. As Roger_G said, she has put down roots in London, and she is a home loving girl. She is also at heart a quiet, modest and private person, I'm not even sure that she would welcome huge celebrity. Yes, she is a home-loving girl but she was prepared to leave her home to relocate to London. What is being discussed now is merely the possibilities that might enable her to progress within the music industry more than she has thus far. I have never thought in terms of huge celebrity status. I don’t believe she would want that any more than you do. But success in the US market (via Japan for reasons I have explained) is something from which I do not believe she would turn away. So you can't even pidgeonhole her into Classical Crossover. She is simply herself, and the product is Hayley, not any particular genre. She is bigger than any of them. I acknowledged yesterday that she has said she doesn’t wish to be pigeon-holed and that is fair enough. I don’t think anyone here would ever try to do such a thing. But no, she is not bigger than any genre. Her sales figures (4 million, is it?) prove that. If she was, she would be a huge megastar by now. As it is, she is a singer with an unusually pleasant voice who has a relatively small but loyal group of fans around the world and I am sure she is happy with that. But most fans are fickle. Not many of them stand by an artist forever come what may. As an example, since I registered here, I have only noticed 30 or 40 members logging in every day. In most cases, they are the same 30 or 40. That is great but there are supposed to be over 600 members so where is everyone else? I checked a few profiles at random, most of whom haven’t logged in for two or three years, some even longer. The implication is that those people, who once were supportive fans, are no longer interested. If that is a reflection of all her fans around the world, it is worrying but probably no different to any other artist. But it means that new fans need to be found all the time. If she has spent eight years in London with its relatively limited catchment area (geographically speaking) of potential fans, then it may be time to look elsewhere. |
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Post by martindn on Feb 3, 2011 21:09:24 GMT
MartinN Your analogy of rock and roll and Elvis to Hayley in the U S is quite a stitch. To go a little farther I'd have to say it's proof of my hypothesis that people who don't live in the states are woefully ignorant of our tastes. Larry My point is that that was a new fashion in music. It replaced the earlier Jazz and big band stuff. Fashions changed. And they can change again. I get a lot of hits from America on my YouTube Channel, which features exclusively my videos of Hayley's concert performances. I know there are people in America who love her music. You are one, you love it so much that you go to the expense of travelling to the UK to hear her perform live. I know you are not the only one whho does that. She has many American fans, they may even be a majority on her official forum. Hayley isn't mainstream taste for sure, not in America, not in the UK. Perhaps not anywhere. But those who appreciate fine singing and fine voices, perhaps not the majority anywhere, love her. She is the best I have ever heard without question. So, perhaps with better exposure, she could start a new fasion - quality music. Just as rock and roll was started, and big band music before it. The US don't understand what they are listening to with Jackie Evancho? They don't call it Classical Crossover? Well, they seem to like it whatever it is. And Jackie quotes Hayley as one of her major influences. I think mainstream taste, in whatever country, is never going to appreciate Hayley for what she is. You can't dance to most of her stuff, and for many that is the only use they have for music. I have always loved fine voices. I bet you have too. And Hayley is the best of them. But there are people all over the world who love fine voices too, even in America, probably more than you think. They would love Hayley too, if only they could get to hear her. She certainly should not try to mimic inferior artists. Very few songs are written for a voice like Hayley's simply because very few singers would be able to perform them. Most songs, pop songs, country songs, are written for average voices, not exceptional ones. Why should she limit herself to that to satisfy popular taste? I don't think she would do it, and I don't want her to do it. Please Hayley, continue to blow me away with your virtuosity. Thayt is what makes you special. If you just followed the herd, you would be just another sheep. Martin D |
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Post by martindn on Feb 3, 2011 22:21:54 GMT
Yes, we will have to disagree. I would never have bought any of Hayley's albums if I hadn't first heard her voice - live. Many of the songs on Pure I had never heard before - how would I know if I liked them or not? How do you ever get to buy an album that has songs on it you have never heard, if the music is paramount? I don’t. It is highly unlikely that I would be unfamiliar with any of the songs – I am not saying I have to know all of them. On the very rare occasions that I know none of them, I listen to sample clips online, I may hear a few tracks on radio or perhaps on a television appearance. The last album was purchased as a result of having seen a TV ad. Any of those means would be enough for me to make a judgement. But to buy an album without knowing I will like at least some of the tracks just because I like the singer would be like buying a car without test driving it just because I like the colour! I have often bought albums on the strength of liking the artist. Perhaps becuse I come from a time when the only way to hear before you buy was to go to a record shop and listen in one of those booths they used to have. Mostly I didn't bother. Or perhaps I heard some of it on the radio. But with artists I know I like, I just buy wahtever they produce, and am rarely disappointed. And as we have seem, things can be withdrawn from sale and you the regret not buying when you had the chance. I don’t know about “plenty”. There are quite a few as the membership of this site appears to confirm but there are not enough. If there was sufficient demand for her – in huge numbers - she would have been snapped up for a major tour or TV appearances several years ago. Yes, proper promotion is needed but, no matter where that is in the world, it can take a huge amount of her time – time when she is not earning money by giving concerts and that is the “risk” to which I was referring in my earlier posts. At the moment, she cannot afford to go to the US for a few months to make the tour that our US friends would like. I don't think we know what she can and can't afford. All we know is she hasn't done it. Perhaps she just doesn't fancy being on tour for months on end, away from her family and friends in both NZ and London. If you listen to her songs, you will know that she feels that deeply. And she did try it for a while with Celtic Woman. There are some people in the world, and I am one, who don't see becoming rich or famous as particularly desirable. But we do enjoy our work, and are happy if we can make a decent living at it. Me, I could have retired a year back, I chose not to do so although I could afford to. Why? I enjoy my job, and my employer still finds my contribution useful. I will never be hugely rich, but I have enough for my needs. And I am happy with that. Is it too much to believe that Hayley is too? Yes, she is a home-loving girl but she was prepared to leave her home to relocate to London. What is being discussed now is merely the possibilities that might enable her to progress within the music industry more than she has thus far. I have never thought in terms of huge celebrity status. I don’t believe she would want that any more than you do. But success in the US market (via Japan for reasons I have explained) is something from which I do not believe she would turn away. Of course she was very young, and had the support of her parents, one or other of whom was constantly with her for several years, helping her to establish herself in London. I know the support of Hayley's family was very important, and something we should all thank them for. They helped t make Hayley what se is today. No, I don't think she would turn success anywhere away if it were offered to her on a plate. But it is more a question of how hard she is prepared to work for it, and how much she thinks she needs it, and what sacrifices she is prepared to make. I can't answer those questions any more than you can. So you can't even pidgeonhole her into Classical Crossover. She is simply herself, and the product is Hayley, not any particular genre. She is bigger than any of them. I acknowledged yesterday that she has said she doesn’t wish to be pigeon-holed and that is fair enough. I don’t think anyone here would ever try to do such a thing. But no, she is not bigger than any genre. Her sales figures (4 million, is it?) prove that. If she was, she would be a huge megastar by now. As it is, she is a singer with an unusually pleasant voice who has a relatively small but loyal group of fans around the world and I am sure she is happy with that. But most fans are fickle. Not many of them stand by an artist forever come what may. As an example, since I registered here, I have only noticed 30 or 40 members logging in every day. In most cases, they are the same 30 or 40. That is great but there are supposed to be over 600 members so where is everyone else? I checked a few profiles at random, most of whom haven’t logged in for two or three years, some even longer. The implication is that those people, who once were supportive fans, are no longer interested. If that is a reflection of all her fans around the world, it is worrying but probably no different to any other artist. But it means that new fans need to be found all the time. If she has spent eight years in London with its relatively limited catchment area (geographically speaking) of potential fans, then it may be time to look elsewhere. Hayley's twitter followers continue to increase, nearly 5000 followers now. I think there were only just over 100 when I started following her, about a year and a half ago. Since she mostly communicates through Twitter, rather than here, I suspect that these days that is where people look first. It is clear to me that new fans ARE being found all the time. As for loyalty, well, some are loyal, some are not. I cannot imagine ever abandoning Hayley, the finest singer I have ever heard, someone I admire as a human being, and someone I consider a friend. I for one am not that fickle. I still follow artists I liked in the 1960s. Some are for life, and Hayley is one of those for me. And I know from experience too that, since Hayley has fans all over the world, we all have friends all over the world - fellow Hayley fans. Some are temporary, some have known her longer than I have and still come here every day, or follow her on Twitter or vote for her on Nicola's site. Perhaps where I differ from some of you is that I am immensely privileged to have seen Hayley perform live quite often - I have seen her live more often than any other singer or band, although there might be a few orchestras I have seen more of, since I have been attending orchestral concerts for well over 50 years, and my local concert hall have a few resident orchestras. So I still see Hayley primarily as a live rather than a recording artist. Perhaps that makes a difference. Some people think that she is worth travelling half way round the world to see perform live. I could even claim to have done so myself. That gives me hope. Martin D |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 4, 2011 1:29:59 GMT
Spidey, Respectfully, Sir, I must disagree with you utterly. Even in terms of current artists, America has huge amounts of talent in many musical genres, including some of the best up and comers. It may not all be artists you like, but the talent is surely undeniable. I think you should look again. *** Xanadu, There are no guarantees in music. But the first step is surely to be known. "Fastest selling British Classical debut of the 20th century" looks pretty good on anyone's CV. 'Big in Timbuktu' - not so much!  (And yes, I picked Timbuktu as a neutral place no-one is likely to be from!  You're forgetting the exchange rate (Currently £1 = 131 Yen) Hayley likely makes far more money from smaller tours in Britain than she would from medium sized tours in Japan. Because they're closer to home, her travel costs are far lower, too. If they were dumped on the market with absolutely no promotion, you'd be right. But they are beautiful and rather different and that would be hugely interesting to a lot of people. Don't forget, too, that both the UK & the US have a significant Asian population. If the HSJS albums appeal to them, many sales would likely accrue. Popularity is like a ball: it needs a kick to get it rolling. Never kick it and it'll never roll. On this we agree  |
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Post by Libby on Feb 4, 2011 3:57:06 GMT
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Post by xanadu66 on Feb 4, 2011 12:18:52 GMT
First of all, a huge thank you to Libby for finding that quote. It is very helpful in that it allays any doubt about which group of members is making assumptions. It is a very positive statement and knowing Hayley’s wishes justifies the existence of this discussion. Interestingly, she mentions Asia and doesn’t specify Japan or any other country. I wonder if she has her eyes set further afield. Singapore might make sense but, beyond that, I would not like to guess. You're forgetting the exchange rate (Currently £1 = 131 Yen) Hayley likely makes far more money from smaller tours in Britain than she would from medium sized tours in Japan. Because they're closer to home, her travel costs are far lower, too. No I'm not. Exchange rates are constantly applicable to anyone who travels as much as Hayley. To be based in Japan wouldn’t affect her any more than usual, at least for as long as she remained there. Anyway, by the time Hayley might end a spell in Japan, the exchange rate may have changed in her favour. I don’t think we need worry about it now. Internal travel (in Japan) might be slightly more than in the UK (but careful planning could negate that) but not nearly as much as in the US. I therefore still believe it would be beneficial to her and set her up to tackle the US later on. Don't forget, too, that both the UK & the US have a significant Asian population. If the HSJS albums appeal to them, many sales would likely accrue. Admittedly, the Asian community in the UK had not occurred to me. Nevertheless, I think I’m right in saying that Treasure didn’t exactly sell by the million. I still believe that the Japanese albums would sell even less than Treasure and would not justify the cost of releasing them here, always assuming that copyright and licensing laws permitted it. Hayley's twitter followers continue to increase… As I would fully expect but that does not mean they are all new fans which was the point I was trying to make. Like you, many of them are likely to have been fans for years but have only succumbed to the Twitter epidemic comparatively recently. The upward trend, I suggest, says more for Twitter's increased popularity than it does for Hayley's. …nearly 5000 followers now. I think there were only just over 100 when I started following her, about a year and a half ago. Only 5000? That seems to confirm my fears that she needs to gain a larger fanbase even more urgently than I thought. 5000 wouldn’t even fill the Albert Hall. Camilla Kerslake already has over 12000 followers and she hasn’t been around for a fraction of the time that Hayley has. What does that tell us? |
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Post by larryhauck on Feb 4, 2011 15:28:45 GMT
Hi Libby You're making an assumption and you know what happens when we make assumptions don.tt you. Larry |
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Joe
Administrator
Supporting Hayley since 2003!
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Post by Joe on Feb 4, 2011 21:38:45 GMT
Her sales figures (4 million, is it?) prove that. If she was, she would be a huge megastar by now. As it is, she is a singer with an unusually pleasant voice who has a relatively small but loyal group of fans around the world and I am sure she is happy with that. But most fans are fickle. Not many of them stand by an artist forever come what may. As an example, since I registered here, I have only noticed 30 or 40 members logging in every day. In most cases, they are the same 30 or 40. That is great but there are supposed to be over 600 members so where is everyone else? I checked a few profiles at random, most of whom haven’t logged in for two or three years, some even longer. The implication is that those people, who once were supportive fans, are no longer interested. If that is a reflection of all her fans around the world, it is worrying but probably no different to any other artist. But it means that new fans need to be found all the time. If she has spent eight years in London with its relatively limited catchment area (geographically speaking) of potential fans, then it may be time to look elsewhere. Hello xanadu66  First of all, I don't think I've had the pleasure of welcoming you to the forum! You really have given us all a most interesting point of discussion.  It's very true that Hayley is becoming less popular in the UK, as our stats tell us. Her fanbase has really grown in central Europe (eg. France, Spain, and Germany). The US continues to reflect its support for Hayley. If Hayley's management can get hold of a blockbuster movie soundtrack recording deal, that (in my eyes) would get the ball rolling for Hayley in America. Thanks again for joining us, xanadu66 i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifBest wishes from the USA, Joe |
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Post by martindn on Feb 4, 2011 22:46:20 GMT
…nearly 5000 followers now. I think there were only just over 100 when I started following her, about a year and a half ago. Only 5000? That seems to confirm my fears that she needs to gain a larger fanbase even more urgently than I thought. 5000 wouldn’t even fill the Albert Hall. Camilla Kerslake already has over 12000 followers and she hasn’t been around for a fraction of the time that Hayley has. What does that tell us? It tells us that Hayley hasn't been promoted properly. She is a vastly better singer than Camilla Kerslake. Martin D |
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Post by martindn on Feb 4, 2011 22:50:20 GMT
Hi Libby, That's good news. Perhaps she is listening the constant haranguing both you and I give her after all. I really do believe thare are a lot of people in the states who would enjoy her music, despite what Larry says. They deserve the chance to hear her. Let's hope she does a few shows over there this year to promote her new album. Martin D |
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Post by spiderman on Feb 4, 2011 23:55:49 GMT
It tells us that Hayley hasn't been promoted properly. She is a vastly better singer than Camilla Kerslake. Martin D Mr D is right.... unfortunately, talent and "being followed" [in the context of twitter] aren't necessarily mutually inclusive. Its about promotion and an obcure commodity called "buzz". how many movies/ actresses are promoted, not on their merits but on some supposed eccentricity. there was a cameron diaz movie solely promoted on a somewhat bizarre hairstyle. both the movie and her looked awful. but the movie sold well. People [other than me] have heard of CK...i dont know why, i havent quite got beyond "who?" yet... but thats the point. if you can promote it, or it promotes itself, it will be popular. and followed on twitter. if its private, and quiet, only people who have heard of, or like, it will follow it |
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Post by Libby on Feb 5, 2011 2:30:21 GMT
Larry, I was not making any assumptions. I was merely showing those who are discussing the matter what Hayley herself said. I only put this out there, so there is no question as to what Hayley thinks or feels about this. However, it is perfectly reasonable to assume she means what she says. In case you failed to read my entire post, I said that I doubt anything like that would happen anytime very soon, but that it is not impossible. So, Larry, you don't believe Hayley that she has an interest in coming here? Just because she hasn't been that successful so far, doesn't mean she never will be at all. It is understandable to feel discouraged about Hayley and the U.S., but I believe there is hope yet. Oh yes, I know what happens. You get mad at me and scold me, as you usually do.  |
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. or you dont share your fellow americans tastes? Since you are american, it follows logically that you dont share your own taste... funny 
