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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 2, 2011 7:14:39 GMT
Larry, Don't worry, I'm not offended  I think the one thing that tends to take many artists by surprise when they try to break the US is that it is NOT like most markets. I think that's what trips them up. They keep thinking they're in one country so that must mean one homogeneous market. What a mistake, eh? I think British acts especially think 'common language = common culture', then wonder how it is they've managed to offend everyone quite so badly. Interestingly, that doesn't work in reverse. US artists seem to be very good at charming British audiences. And I'm certainly not going to claim to know more about the US than an American does! What I will say is that I chose Andrea Bocelli, Susan Boyle and Josh Groban for a reason: all have charted very well recently in the US, riding very high in the Billboard Charts. Your point about Taylor Swift is an excellent one. There were about a billion Country artists out there before she came along and she still broke through to become one of the most successful artists in modern music. But, I think there is little doubt that Country was slowly dying until she came along and gave it a whole new lease of life. Taylor kicked the doors open not by copying others, but by being herself. And, lest we forget, by using her amazing internet social networking skills. Many other young artists are now copying her techniques there, and there's no reason Hayley cannot do the same. One thing I am FAIRLY sure of, though: Americans want to buy into a complete package, not just a voice or just music. They want to see a dream they can dream. That's why Susan Boyle took off so spectacularly (Everywoman), it's why Taylor Swift does so well (Girl Next Door as Superstar) and it's why any artist who doesn't fit into a neat box is doomed to fail. To conquer the US, Hayley must make her audience dream of angels. With that voice, it's her best narrative. That's my theory, anyway And she's going to have to talk. A lot. Because Americans like to know their dreams-made-real. |
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Post by spiderman on Feb 2, 2011 9:38:00 GMT
I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone with my posts tonight. But I think it's just not possible for anyone who doesn't live in the U S to make assumptions about what will fly and what won't. it seems a reasonable statement to make; however, the fact that popstars pop up like dandelions doesnt make them successful; it just means they popped up. The USA, and indeed most of the world is littered with singers who had an album, or a song; everyone remembers the song, but not the artist. are you only going to comment on aspects of hayleys career that pertain to the USA? i hardly think so since there wouldnt be anything to say and we would miss your input. Americans arent that unique that one cannot have a reasonable opinion on the country without living there. sorry. i made a perfectly reasonable statement, which you choose to disagree with. fine. im still entitled and you should come up with a more logical refutation than you dont understand us cos you dont live here. actually larry, im perfectly aware of how big and diverse your country is.. you have a big population, yes; and it supports every random person who gets to be famous for 15min or so... it doesnt make them successful just employed. does anyone here, in england, think they are in a homogenous society??? we actually dont, all 4.5m of us... but there are certain common trends amongst the populace... i gotta stop writing around here when im tired.. .too many words as too whether i can predict what americans want... i dont care. i do, however, want hayley to be sucessful. and if she tries to do what everyone else has done... it wont work. night all, the spiderman |
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Post by xanadu66 on Feb 2, 2011 12:08:28 GMT
Gosh, thanks for all the replies. I would respectfully clarify the question which was not “what should her manager be telling her” but “what direction would you like her to take, for the benefit of her career, if you were her manager”.
Okay, I strongly agree with Nicola that Hayley should be based in Asia (Japan, HK, Taiwan, etc) but with one proviso. I feel that no artist can afford to turn their back totally on an existing fanbase. She should therefore do a brief tour of the UK and NZ, perhaps for two or three weeks each, but otherwise be based in Japan for 12 to 18 months. She seems to have a greater following there than anywhere else and I feel it is important to capitalise on that. I imagine she could make really good money there from concerts and TV appearances. Yes, I know she is not materialistic but, if she made good money, she could then afford to take a few risks the following year, such as a serious attempt to break into the American market. If it works, she would be made for life. If it didn’t, at least she would have the resources from Japan so as not incur serious financial difficulties.
I would like to know the reason for her popularity in Japan in the hope that it can be applied elsewhere. Does anyone know? Yes Martin, I am aware of her appearance at the World Games in Taiwan but she was very popular throughout the region long before that. It was because of her popularity, I surmise, that she was invited to make that appearance.
I have long been concerned at the extraordinary length of time between albums. I know a number of people who have grown tired of waiting, found someone else to support and moved on. As a comparison, Katherine Jenkins released seven original albums in just over five years. I feel Hayley needs to release a totally new album about a year or so after the Morrecone one. Naturally, she would have no time to record it (in a London studio) if she is to be based in Japan as Nicola and I feel would be advantageous. But she doesn’t need to. Record a couple of UK or NZ concerts and release a CD called “Hayley Live”.
Elliot said that London is still the best base for a Kiwi who wants worldwide success. That may be true in theory but she has been based in London for nearly eight years (hasn’t she?) and hasn’t exactly set the world on fire in the way that some, including me, believed she might. Time then to try elsewhere. I am not saying she should leave London forever; just for the next year or so.
Larry tells us that Classical Crossover won’t make it in the States. I don’t think it will in the UK either – not to the degree that is needed to give Hayley the huge popularity that she deserves. Nevertheless, as several have commented, she must do her own thing whether that be largely Crossover or not. I think I remember her saying that she didn’t want to be pigeon-holed into one musical genre. Quite right too, but if her repertoire is eclectic, it will be difficult to market her albums.
Certainly, an appearance on BGT, AGT and those programmes suggested by Libby would help enormously. But who decides such things? Is it up to Hayley’s managers to “sell” her to those shows or does she have to be invited?
Spiderman feels that my question is a mistake and that the manager should ask her which direction she wants to take. Yes, of course he should but he should also advise what he believes is in her best interest. That, among other things, is his job. But ultimately, it is indeed a two-way thing. Discuss, develop an understanding, formulate a plan and put it into action.
Spiderman also feels she should have control over what she sings. I hope and assume she does. But a record company with whom she has a contract also has the right (and the need) to have some control otherwise an artist might struggle to get a contract in the first place. As the same member suggests, copyright is also essential but doesn’t help much unless she has a team of ever-vigilant legal boffins to ensure that copyright law is applied to all her material, constantly and worldwide. Unfortunately, that is all but impossible.
I quote martindn:
With respect, there we differ. Yes, of course the voice is important but, if I don’t like the songs, I won’t buy the album. It was the quality of her voice and the tracklisting in equal measure that caused me to buy Pure all those years ago. None of her subsequent albums have appealed to me to the same degree, even though the voice is the same (but maturing of course) because of the tracklisting. So for me, and I suspect for many – especially when marketability is considered – what she sings is paramount.
I talk too much so I will leave it there for now! My apologies to anyone whose posts I have not acknowledged – I read them all with interest.
Regards to all and in view of the current weather conditions, my particular good wishes to those of you in America and Australia. Keep safe.
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Post by Roger-G on Feb 2, 2011 12:15:12 GMT
I can understand that people here have many ideas about how Hayley could 'make a breakthrough' or 'make it big in the US'. But are you all correct in thinking that she should become, or wants to become, a world-class superstar?
Hayley clearly enjoys concerts and meeting her fans, but I believe she could have done more concerts last year if she had really wanted to.
I don't think Hayley will be tempted to spend long periods travelling the world if that will impact on her personal life that is so important to her. Neither should anyone expect it.
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Post by xanadu66 on Feb 2, 2011 13:35:20 GMT
Hello Roger,
No, we are not necessarily correct in thinking that but considering she chose to leave home at the age of fifteen to live on the opposite site of the world suggests that she is serious about her long-term career in music. The best way of achieving that in my view is to succeed in more than one major market which surely includes the US.
What has been said in this discussion would not require any more travelling than she is doing now. If she was based in the Far East for an extended period, it would actually involve significantly less.
I have seen records on the Schedules pages that she was in the US on at least 8 separate occasions including three months with Celtic Woman. Why would she have done any of that if she wasn’t interested in breaking into the US market? I may be wrong but the implications are that she is.
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 2, 2011 16:06:12 GMT
Xanadu, I agree with a number of your points, though not all. There is one major reason that I believe Hayley should stay in London rather than moving her base of operations to Japan: access to the markets. The US, Japan and UK are the three largest markets for albums, in that order (For singles, it's Japan, UK, US). If you are big in either the US or the UK, you will automatically gain the attention of the other two markets. If you are big in Japan, the other two markets will not even notice you. I know that sounds horrible, but it's true. If Hayley truly wishes to break into the big time worldwide (And I find your reasoning impeccable, there), she will not do it if she is based in any part of Asia. As to why she hasn't set the world ablaze, I blame that on very poor strategy by the people behind her. She has not been pushed anywhere near aggressively enough and her team's internet strategy is non-existent. Her official sites are universally appalling, she has no official YouTube channel and anyone wanting up to date information on her is better off here at HWI (The reason I originally joined myself, in fact. Every search I did on what Hayley was up to inevitably brought me here), which is a fan site. Decca's entire internet strategy (For all their artists, not just Hayley. Faryl's sites are arguably even worse, for example) would appear to be 'cover your eyes and hope it goes away'. What I think of that 'strategy' you can imagine...  As for album strategy, I think you have named part of the problem: infrequent albums. The best gap between albums seems to be 1 1/2 to two years. Longer than that and people drift away, as you say (And no, Xmas albums don't count), while less than that means interest does not have time to build again. Some do get away with yearly releases, but it's rare for that to be a sustainable rate. The OTHER part of the problem is the ridiculous number of different editions of every album, which must make it very confusing for anyone who has heard a specific track and wants to find the album that has it. Some of her best work not being released internationally (The HSJS albums) really doesn't help, either. I have all of Hayley's albums. I'm not sure I have even 2/3 of her songs. That's absurd. So yeah, there are vast amounts of things that could be improved, but I don't think the failure is Hayley's. She simply needs a team around her who are not content with thinking of her as a niche artist and want to promote her properly on the world stage. If any CC artist can bring the genre into the mainstream, it is surely Hayley. But for her to do that, the world has to hear her. |
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Post by Roger-G on Feb 2, 2011 16:07:11 GMT
I have seen records on the Schedules pages that she was in the US on at least 8 separate occasions including three months with Celtic Woman. Why would she have done any of that if she wasn’t interested in breaking into the US market? A fair question. Hayley was much younger then. She was still finding her way in the world and did not have the very deep roots she has since put down in London. |
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Post by larryhauck on Feb 2, 2011 18:48:37 GMT
I have seen records on the Schedules pages that she was in the US on at least 8 separate occasions including three months with Celtic Woman. Why would she have done any of that if she wasn’t interested in breaking into the US market? A fair question. Hayley was much younger then. She was still finding her way in the world and did not have the very deep roots she has since put down in London.[/quot RogerG How could you possibly endeavor to know what Hayley wants or doesn't want to do with her career? Larry |
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Post by Libby on Feb 2, 2011 18:51:03 GMT
Elliot, I agree with you about not basing herself in Japan/Asia. Sure, it would be nice since it's closer to NZ, but otherwise I don't see how it would be to her advantage. Yes, it would increase her popularity in Asia. But it seems to me that she's already quite popular there. She could be more so, of course. But as Elliot says, being popular in Asia doesn't seem to get you noticed anywhere else. As for the TV shows/appearances I mentioned, I've already set the wheels in motion on 2 of them. Last year, I wrote a letter to the Mormon Tabernacle choir. They informed me that Hayley was already in their future plans! I then e-mailed Bedlam (when it was still her management) about the Mormon Tabernacle choir and the Japanese ice show ideas. Her booking agent replied and told me these were great ideas. She even said she would tell the Japanese about it (the ice shows). Regarding the MTC idea, it was too late for last year's performance. But I'm going to write to Bandana too, very soon, in hopes that they will consider the ideas, too. Her schedule this year is probably too busy for any of that, but you never know. The MTC appearance could still be possible. It's all the way in December, after all. I'm hoping that Bedlam would have shared the ideas with Bandana, but if not I am perfectly willing to do that for them. In fact I'm sending the letter within the next couple of days. |
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Post by Roger-G on Feb 2, 2011 20:31:26 GMT
RogerG How could you possibly endeavor to know what Hayley wants or doesn't want to do with her career? Larry Of course I can't Larry. None of us can. That's precisely why I was questioning the apparent assumption that she might want to move to the US or Asia. |
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Post by martindn on Feb 2, 2011 21:29:49 GMT
Gosh, what a lot of stuff. Larry wrote Hi Martin
But what kind of music should she write. The classical-crossover that we like or music that is not just for a niche market.
She should write whatever she wants to write. Fashions come and go. She does not and should not try to copy other artists who have been successful in the US. Did the early rock and rollers do that? Did Elvis do that? Did the Beatles? Beach Boys? No they didn't, they did their own thing and enough people loved what they did to make them huge stars. Rock and Roll was new when it appeared, it relpaced earlier music styles. Before they came along, you could just as easily have said that there was no market for rock and roll in the USA. No reason at all why CC should not do the same. All it needs is the right exposure. Quote: With Hayley, it is her voice that sells the music, so what the music is isn't really that important. xanadu66 wrote With respect, there we differ. Yes, of course the voice is important but, if I don’t like the songs, I won’t buy the album. It was the quality of her voice and the tracklisting in equal measure that caused me to buy Pure all those years ago. None of her subsequent albums have appealed to me to the same degree, even though the voice is the same (but maturing of course) because of the tracklisting. So for me, and I suspect for many – especially when marketability is considered – what she sings is paramount.
Yes, we will have to disagree. I would never have bought any of Hayley's albums if I hadn't first heard her voice - live. Many of the songs on Pure I had never heard before - how would I know if I liked them or not? How do you ever get to buy an album that has songs on it you have never heard, if the music is paramount? But when you see a young girl walk onto a stage, and sing a song you have never heard before, and within 10 seconds you know it is the most beautiful thing you have ever heard... Some of Hayley's songs I have heard sung by other artists and hated them. Yet Hayley can make me love them. Why is that I wonder? Can't be the song can it? But for me, Hayley's choice of material and her songwriting are a part of who she is. If she went for a single genre like pop or country, she would not be true to herself and would not find songs that do justice to her wonderful voice. Is that what we want? Would Hayley consider that a price worth paying for huge stardom. Somehow I doubt it. Remember, Hayley has said over and over again, that she loves singing. And I am sure she loves her artistic freedom too. She is making a living doing what she is doing, so would she really want to go off in a direction that didn't appeal to her artistically to try to crack America or anywhere else? Somehow I doubt it. However there are still plenty of people in America who love Hayley AS SHE IS. I repeat, she doesn't need to change, she can still be true to herself, she just needs proper promotion. Elliott wrote As to why she hasn't set the world ablaze, I blame that on very poor strategy by the people behind her. She has not been pushed anywhere near aggressively enough and her team's internet strategy is non-existent. Her official sites are universally appalling, she has no official YouTube channel and anyone wanting up to date information on her is better off here at HWI (The reason I originally joined myself, in fact. Every search I did on what Hayley was up to inevitably brought me here), which is a fan site. Decca's entire internet strategy (For all their artists, not just Hayley. Faryl's sites are arguably even worse, for example) would appear to be 'cover your eyes and hope it goes away'. What I think of that 'strategy' you can imagine... I think you have hit the nail on the head. That really is the problem. The industry and media have always lagged behind popular tastes in music, for example back in the sixties the BBC broadcast about 2 hours a week of "popular music" until the offshore "pirate" radio ships came along and made them look silly. So in the end the BBC had to copy the pirates. If any CC artist can bring the genre into the mainstream, it is surely Hayley. But for her to do that, the world has to hear her. Absolutely agree Elliott. I can't inagine that Hayley would want to move to Asia or even the US. As Roger_G said, she has put down roots in London, and she is a home loving girl. She is also at heart a quiet, modest and private person, I'm not even sure that she would welcome huge celebrity. She just loves making music and performing, and perhaps she is happy that she can make a living at it, without actually wanting to set the world alight. She does not strike me as being the sort of person who would give up her life as she likes to live it for fame and fortune. I'm not convinced that she wants to be a celebrity, only to be a singer. I think she values being able to go on holiday and not be recognised wherever she goes. As for how she became popular in Japan and the Far East, before the World Games she had some successful albums in Japan, especially the two HSJS albums, and Amazing Grace, her theme song over there, which was used as a theme song for a popular TV drama. Those two albums were not Classical Crossover, they were Japanese pop. I had never heard most of those songs before either, they were something totally new to me, and I bought them, at something like three times the price I would pay for an album in the UK, simply because they were Hayley. And when I did hear them I was absolutelly delighted. And they are still my own two personal favourites among her albums. It is notable that she had more songwriting input into those two albums than any others that she has made. And it is also notable that she is very popular, perhaps most popular, in the countries where those albums were released. So you can't even pidgeonhole her into Classical Crossover. She is simply herself, and the product is Hayley, not any particular genre. She is bigger than any of them. Her albums don't do her justice anyway. So perhaps live performances and touring should be more important to her. To move in that direction, she would have to be prepared to play much larger venues than the 1000 to 2000ish seaters she goes for in the UK (and which she usually sells out). Of course she has played much larger venues in the Far East. Martin D |
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Post by larryhauck on Feb 3, 2011 2:05:23 GMT
Hi Spiderman
I stand by my statement that people who don't live here may not understand the tastes of Americans. Obviously I don't share their tastes as I have made seven trips to the U k to see Hayley.
Sure we have one hit wonders; but are you alluding to the fact that Hayley would fall into that category. I don't think so.
We like quality talent here but they must appeal to many to succeed. That's why I keep hammering on the fact that Hayley should sing pop and ballads here.
Larry
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Post by larryhauck on Feb 3, 2011 2:13:30 GMT
MartinN
Your analogy of rock and roll and Elvis to Hayley in the U S is quite a stitch. To go a little farther I'd have to say it's proof of my hypothesis that people who don't live in the states are woefully ignorant of our tastes.
Larry
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Post by tracy on Feb 3, 2011 6:13:23 GMT
Hi Spiderman That's why I keep hammering on the fact that Hayley should sing pop and ballads here. Larry WELL she could come out here and sing a few country and Westenra western songs, ill bet Hayley could knock out a pretty awesome yodel  much love Tracy |
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Post by spiderman on Feb 3, 2011 6:38:57 GMT
WELL she could come out here and sing a few country and Westenra western songs, ill bet Hayley could knock out a pretty awesome yodel much love Tracy Now that would be something. [side note: would the moron upstairs playing with his smoke-alarm please not] i can see that being an appropriately unique showcase for her talents the spiderman |
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I think the one thing that tends to take many artists by surprise when they try to break the US is that it is NOT like most markets. I think that's what trips them up. They keep thinking they're in one country so that must mean one homogeneous market. What a mistake, eh?
