CW and Hayley Tour..The Beginning of The End

[alcan1]

This is from the Celtic Woman website published today.........

As you know, Hayley Westenra joined Celtic Woman for the recording of our new DVD Celtic Woman, A New Journey in Slane Castle, Co Meath. The show worked so well that we have asked her to join us for our new North American Tour, and, she has accepted.

Hailing from New Zealand, with strong Irish ancestory, Hayley is a star in her own right. Both of her solo albums achieving to date, combined sales of over 3 million albums. She has also achieved a Top 10 position in the Pop Charts in 11 separate countries.

Celtic Woman, A New Journey tour will keep the same succesful format of our previous show, which consisted of 5 Star Soloists. This means that there will only ever be 5 Star Soloists performing. Meav and Hayley will alternate dates throughout our North American Tour. Meav will open the new show in Tampa Florida and then Hayley will join us in the month of March, and they will continue to alternate throughout the tour.

[alcan1]

I can tell you that Im just livid right now. Celtic Woman should have informed the fans of this news long ago as to what they were planning. If I had known that Celtic Woman was capable of misleading and flat out lying to us through their promotion of Slane on PBS as to the tour then I would never have gone through with the plans that I have made. I can tell you that Celtic Woman is no longer the group I first fell in love with. It is CLEAR beyond any shadow of a doubt that Celtic Woman management could care less about the fans. How they can lead us to belive that that we are getting the whole group when that is not the case is unbeliveable!!! Im sure the show is going to be good either way but the loss of MEAV or any of the original CW members is pathetic. The fans should have been told from the beginning exactly what was going on. Its too bad that CW thinks they need to fix what aint broken.

[alcan1]

Repost from Lisa Kelly's forum by me ........

Quote from: OldFatGuy on Today at 03:18:58 PM
Dani, I don't think anyone is blaming any of the CW ladies.


No by all means thats not the case. This is an issuse of timely information, deception etc. Like i said there are/were hundreds of PBS station all over the country pushing tickets touting that ALL the CW members would be on tour. All means all ....not some or most. This tour is going to gross over $25,000,000 and PBS and CW flat out decieved the hundreds of thousands of fans who bought tickets. Wait untill the tour starts and as you all attend shows listen closely to what people are saying around you. There are going to be thousands saying ...."wait....Where is Meav....Or I thought Hayley was going to be here....What the heck?" Mark my words. There are going to be thousands of unhappy fans. And once burned twice shy.

[roger]

Hi alcan1,

What can I say? I fully understand your disappointment and your anger. I know I would feel the same way in that situation. This was the first I had heard of Hayley alternating with Meav so thank you for relaying the information here. I trust many CW fans will have the opportunity to air their grievances to their management.

Roger

[stevemacdonald]

Not to diminish anyone's issues here, but I'm sure the vast majority who will attend these shows will be delighted with whatever they receive in the way of great singing and superb music making. I'd hate to see this tour scandalised by too much disgruntlement that not everyone shares. I'd feel lucky just to get a ticket, period.

[1littlegirl]

stevemacdonald said:

Not to diminish anyone's issues here, but I'm sure the vast majority who will attend these shows will be delighted with whatever they receive in the way of great singing and superb music making. I'd hate to see this tour scandalised by too much disgruntlement that not everyone shares. I'd feel lucky just to get a ticket, period.

Well, for those people who buy tickets just to see Hayley, it will be extremely disappointing if Meav is taking Hayley's place on the nights those people go. I have tickets for March 23 in NC and I'm really really hoping Hayley will be at that one. If she isn't there, it would have been mostly a waste because I could have gone to a CW concert without Hayley on February 21 that was much closer to where I live.

I wish we could know exactly which dates Hayley will be performing. I don't see why CW can only have 5 soloists at a time. It doesn't make sense.

[roger]

Yeah, you're right, Steve. The majority will enjoy the concert no matter who is appearing. But Hayley and Meav both have a lot of fans who will be extremely disappointed if their personal favourite is not there.

Cathleen, I know you have had disappointments in the past with cancelled concerts so I am really hoping that you will be lucky this time. From what have been said so far, I think you have a good chance of seeing Hayley.

Roger

[kmsmith8]

I would have to say I agree with alcan1 and stevemacdonald at the same time (the management's actions are not satifactory, but I feel as though I would still enjoy a show with or without Hayley or Meav). This is a great example of horrible marketing. Just basing this upon the orginal group, fans that consider Meav to be their favorite member will be sorely disapointed and may not look upon the group in the same way after showing up to a concert with the expectation of seeing Meav and then finding that she isn't there (especially if they paid a lot for tickets through PBS, something that Roger mentioned--he posted while I was writing this). If you consider the rule...it is more expensive to get new customers (in this class fans) then it is to keep the ones you have...than this could prove to be a very expensive mistake. It all depends on whether loyal fans would consider something like this to be a deal breaker.

However, if much of the audience purchased tickets after seeing the special on PBS, and is not familiar enough with the group to notice a difference then maybe Celtic Woman will be okay (I doubt this is the case). This is probably a bad comparison, but (using an example from one of my college classes) the loyal business people that fly on airplanes are what provide the majority of the profit (the tourists, families, etc. cover the high fixed costs). I would expect that fixed costs are high for a concert tour, so the loss of loyal fans (the fans that travel to more than one concert, by the high dollar tickets, and would consider Meav not showing up to a concert to big a deal) at concerts than what seems to be a small amount of money could equate to a big deal (going with the comparison the non loyal fans cover the fixed costs, if the loyal fans aren't stop going to concerts because of this profits--after subtracting gross income from the costs--are a lot smaller). They probably wouldn't be running at a loss (as an airplane would be), but it could significantly cut into their profits.

I would be interested to get PBS' take on all of this. In a way, their image will be affected as well. Since PBS was selling tickets, some people may blame them for false advertising (giving the impression that all group members would be there). I wouldn't blame PBS for questioning whether this could affect their future fundraising efforts. It would be interesting to see if this affects Celtic Woman's relationship with PBS (I would assume that if this relationship was affected it would be a serious problem for Celtic Woman management).

For me personally (a person that just started listening to Celtic Woman's music after Hayley became involved), this has certainly affected my perception of the group. I still consider all of the artists to be expectionally talented; however, in not trusting the management, I don't think I would consider seeing them in concert (beyond the ticket I have already purchased for Milwaukee, WI). I know that I will have a great time at the concert, but in going to more concerts I have trouble giving my hard earned money to a company that can't do something as simple as telling fans which artists will be at concerts (something that should have be done when the concert dates were first released). Not to mention, if I knew Hayley was going to be a certain concert dates I would make a point to get tickets.

Reading back over this post I think this may be my longest one ever.

Katie

[postscript]

Hi Alcan1.

I am not sure that anyone can post anything to assuage your obvious intense anger, so I am not going to try. I respond, initially out of a sense of companionship to any 'wounded' creature but also because out of your post can come some valid observations about Hayley and CW--which is why we are here on this site in the first place.

About the management of CW, or its history, I am not going to comment. I only know of them because of Hayley. I am aware of some 'problems' over Maev which may have opened the door for 'a replacement' and the timing was such that it was Hayley.

My immediate concerns were a repeat of what I felt was the wrong relationship with 'Il Divo' both in itself but most particularly in the public/performance manner in which they seemed to treat her. Secondhand knowledge of what CW was about spoke volumes of a reciprocal benefit of equal value to both--well covered elsewhere under a CW thread, so I won't go into it here.

As I understand the arrangement, all CW members were accomplished soloists, already established to different levels of recognition in their own right. It is therefore a fluid group of interchanging/interchangeable 'units'.

This means Hayley is able to run parallel threads: her own independent desire to grab US attention in which, so far, she appears to be lagging behind at this stage in her career; promote her new CD worldwide; and interact with CW.

You seem to view CW as a group of specific individuals. In that, I can understand your anger, particularly if you hold a candle for a particular member. To me, CW is a group concept, on a smaller scale than Riverdance, which I don't think could operate without a 'turnover of members' management facility.

The principle applies to: 'All Angels'--wonderful girls each of them but diverse in personality and interests but within which concept is provision for change, unless the genre runs out of music options; 'The Choirboys' is particularly time sensitive because of aging but likewise the concept can outrun the 'life-time' of its component members.

If I have got it right, being very much on the periphery, if CW made a management error in the way it treated Maev, it may now be being forced into making amends. In the mean time, Hayley had a door opened through which she chose to enter but into which room she may well have not wished to stay too long. It seems to me, however accidentally or deliberately it all came about, it all behoves well for Hayley, which is our main concern here.

Peter S.

[postscript]

It certainly appears, as has been an inherited history as far as my knowledge of CW is concerned, that CW is abysmally ineptly managed. Perhaps Bedlam Management should make a takeover bid--but NOT Steve! We don''t want him over-worked for Hayley, 'All Angels', Nicola Benedetti and one or two others' benefits!
Peter S.

[Dave]

Hello alcan1 and everyone,

Yes it is indeed sad when problems like these crop up and I well remember that last year, it took a long time to find out that Hayley would not in fact be appearing at every Il Divo show in their World Tour - in the end she did not go with them to Australia. Some people there had, I believe, already booked tickets on the basis of Hayley's expected presence, so they were of course disappointed.

There are often many and complex reasons for such decisions and I think it's true to say that we rarely find out the full story; I don't expect the Celtic Woman situation to be any different... annoying though it is for the fans. But the fact remains that for the Il Divo Tour, "Il Divo" was the main act... and for the Celtic Woman tour, "Celtic Woman" is the main act (but see below regarding the 'show' aspect). If David of Il Divo had to be replaced by say Josh Groban for part of the Il Divo tour there would have been many delighted fans - and just as many incensed fans but essentially, Il Divo would still have been performing so ticket buyers would not have been entitled to demand refunds. Sadly, it is the same with Hayley and Meav for the Celtic Woman tour, as it was for the Il Divo tour when Hayley could not join them in Australia last year.

It is still very annoying though, for the fans. It also reminds me of something that alcan1 explained a while ago... that Celtic Woman is, if i remember right, a show not a group. In which case, the producers would probably argue that just as the leading lady can be and often is replaced in a Broadway or West End show after tickets have been purchased, so individual members of the show Celtic Woman can be replaced. But if the producers take this too far, they will probably end up, eventually, with half empty concert halls and I am sure they are well aware of this constraint.

Cheers,

Dave

[roger]

Hi Dave,

Yes, the producers (and promoters) may well argue that it is still the Celtic Woma "show" no matter who is appearing. But, frankly, that is a cop-out. It was announced long ago that Hayely would be *joining* CW; not alternating with one of the existing members. I sympathise equally with fans of both Meav and Hayley who have booked tickets and I hope they will vent their displeasure to whoever is responsible for apparently withholding fundamental information until now.

Roger

[Dave]

Actually, Roger and all, I did mean to add to my original post that yes, the problem seems to be that people feel there has been misrepresentation.

I agree entirely that CW producers/promoters should have sorted out the tour details before tickets went on sale - which is when it should have been announced, not months later. I hope it doesn't look like I am defending the CW producers... far from it.

What amuses me about Celtic Woman is that judging by their official website main page, one of them is a man: "Composer & Musical Director, David Downes" who shares the limelight equally with the girls - except for Hayley whose photo isn't there at all (she's tucked away inside the bio pages). That strikes me as rather odd; perhaps the webmaster got mixed up between him and Hayley Or perhaps it explains a few other things; I wish someone would explain it to me.

Cheers, Dave

[comet]

Hi Dave
David Downes is the composer and arranger for CW, and I think for some other singers from the record label or company,
You will also see him conducting on the DVD.

If you get hold of their DVD there is an interview with all the members and David as well,

comet

[alcan1]

roger said:

Hi Dave,

Yes, the producers (and promoters) may well argue that it is still the Celtic Woman "show" no matter who is appearing. But, frankly, that is a cop-out. It was announced long ago that Hayley would be *joining* CW; not alternating with one of the existing members. I sympathies equally with fans of both Me av and Hayley who have booked tickets and I hope they will vent their displeasure to whoever is responsible for apparently withholding fundamental information until now.

Roger

Yes Roger...you hit the nail on the head. They waited until 12 days before the start of the tour to inform the fans and they still haven't told us and where Hayley and Meav will be when. They pulled the exact same thing last year when announcing MEAVs return after DEIRDRE was fired. They waited about a week before the start of the tour to issue a press release. We were all expecting Deirdre on that tour.

Now there has been this same topic on Lisas forum as well and I can tell you that this is not an issue of who will be performing. This is an issue in which without reservation their management deceived the fans. Katie put it right in her post above...."This is a great example of horrible marketing. Just basing this upon the original group, fans that consider Meav to be their favorite member will be sorely disappointed and may not look upon the group in the same way after showing up to a concert with the expectation of seeing Meav and then finding that she isn't there (especially if they paid a lot for tickets through PBS, something that Roger mentioned--he posted while I was writing this). If you consider the rule...it is more expensive to get new customers (in this class fans) then it is to keep the ones you have...than this could prove to be a very expensive mistake. It all depends on whether loyal fans would consider something like this to be a deal breaker". And "I would be interested to get PBS' take on all of this. In a way, their image will be affected as well. Since PBS was selling tickets, some people may blame them for false advertising (giving the impression that all group members would be there). I wouldn't blame PBS for questioning whether this could affect their future fund raising efforts. It would be interesting to see if this affects Celtic Woman's relationship with PBS (I would assume that if this relationship was affected it would be a serious problem for Celtic Woman management)."

For me this is the deal breaker and we have email evidence that at least 1 local PBS station had knowledge of this the night of the first airing of the Slane Castle show and intentionally went on air and deceived the fans for the sole purpose of selling tickets. I posted this info on the main forum and on Lisas forum as well but was asked to take it down because someone could have lost their job as I posted the PBS station that had this foreknowledge.

On Lisas forum there was a post somewhat directed to me that goes to the very heart of weather or not this could be the deal breaker. "I've been around awhile and I know most of you, so I know that some of the things that have been said here were in the shock and heat of the moment, and you didn't really mean it to sound the way that it did. But perhaps the place to vent these frustrations is on the main CW forum, not here. It seems to me, to imply that you would not have bought tickets to the concerts, or to as many concerts, if you had known, is, I hate to say it, very discourteous."

I responded with the following and this goes to the very heart of what Katie said in her post when she said. " I would expect that fixed costs are high for a concert tour, so the loss of loyal fans (the fans that travel to more than one concert, by the high dollar tickets, and would consider Meav not showing up to a concert to big a deal) at concerts than what seems to be a small amount of money could equate to a big deal (going with the comparison the non loyal fans cover the fixed costs, if the loyal fans aren't stop going to concerts because of this profits--after subtracting gross income from the costs--are a lot smaller). They probably wouldn't be running at a loss (as an airplane would be), but it could significantly cut into their profits.

So here was my response

Since the above post is directed towards me for the most part I feel its prudent to respond. First let me address weather or not this is the place to to vent these frustrations. Yes it is. The fact is the members of CW and their management are watching this forum very closly and have been for some time. Now I know that I may not be the most politically correct person but my thoughts and expressions are what 99% of the loyal base feels at this time. They choose not to condem the deception as harshly as me. Thats fine but all who Ive chatted with in the last 18 hours are all livid and in smome cases using more harsh terms then myself privately.

Now I will address the following quote from the above post..."imply that you would not have bought tickets to the concerts, or to as many concerts, if you had known, is, I hate to say it, very discourteous."

I would submit to you that its not discourteous under this stuation.Nothing could be further from the truth. In my case we are not talking about a small amount of money here so Im going to break it down for you so you can see exactly what we are talking about here. These are just my expenses for this up comming trip.

CONCERT TICKETS ..... 26 in total

2 Wallingford, CT Meet and Greet Tickets ...........$400
2 Manchester, NH Meet and Greet tickets............$300
1 Boston, MA ticket..............................................$125
2 Boston, MA Meet and Greet Tickets..................$500
1 Uncasville, CT ...................................................$100
4 NYC Radio City Music Hall March 16th .............$500
14 Radio City Music Hall March 17th..................$1675

TOTAL CONCERT TICKET COST ..........................$3600

AIRFARE FOR 6 PEOPLE ROUND TRIP FROM
VARIOUS PLACES IN THE COUNTRY $3200

HOTELS FOR MYSELF AND 9 mpeople in NYC.....$3200

CAR RENTAL $700

LIMO SERVICE $750

LOST POTENTIAL WAGES $4100

GRAND TOTAL and that doesnt include food public transportation etc................... ................................................$15,550

Now does any one really think that I would have spent this kind of money had I known about the deception beforehand? NO I WOUNLD NOT. I would have rather done any group event in a much cheaper location. And we are only talking 1 trip here. Ive done 2 others like this plus the Cincy concer in October 05.

So No I dont think Im being too harsh here. I want these people to know exactly the type of fan base they have. And Im only one person. When you add up the expenses that Jan Harper, George Major, and Maureen along with a few others have also shelled out you are talking alot of money there as well. Its the older fans that are directly financing the younger fans...The ones that are the least likely to afford it. Why do we do it. The reason is simple.... every once in a while there seems to be a group that people look up to. People who project themselves in a certain mannor with an image that is perceived as being highly talented, hard working, moral, ethical, and in general having good character, as well as an organization that has a high degree of honor. These traits are extremely rare in todays environment, yet its something that many people strive to seek out which is one of the reasons why the success of Celtic Woman has exploded.

The actions of CW Management on more then a handfull of cases has shown themselves to be anything but what I have described above. They clearly dont care how the public image of the performers are precieved.If they choose to repersent the girls in that fashion then NO I will nol onger give financial support to PBS, or CW. Why should I support a business that I know to be inconsistant with the principals that I stated in the above paragraph?

After I posted this Lisa responded to it. I deleted it off her forum because I knew at that time it had reached CW management as Scott Porter is the general manager. So they know that they basically have lost us as loyal fans because of their deception. We will still buy the DVD and CDs as new ones are released but as for me I dont intend on spending the money to travel to see them again and buy high dollar tickets to support the same type of conduct that led to the demise of Enron, and Worldcom.