CW and Hayley Tour..The Beginning of The End

[roger]

Hi alcan1,

I would prefer not to get too involved here but I don't blame you for the way you feel. I won't comment as to whether Lisa's forum was the right place because I am not sufficiently familiar with it or with CW's but I see no reason why you should not have posted it there if you so wished. However, I am dismayed that you were perceived as being discourteous. Whoever posted that clearly has no understanding of the depth of feeling that people like us have for the singers that we chose to support.

The point is, you booked your tickets based on information that subsequently proved to be false. I think you have every right to object in any way that might bring the message home. In short, you paid to see SIX girls on stage. Now it seems you will only see five. And, for many venues, you still don't know if one of them will be Meav or Hayley. That is simply not good enough.

Perhaps we should recognise that nobody is finding fault with the group (show!) or with any of the individual singers. It is the promo and lack of reliable information that is at fault. If this should happen again, sadly, the fans will lose faith and it is the group who will ultimately suffer.

Roger

[kmsmith8]

Hi alcan1,

I hope you successfully get your message across. In actuality, I would be surprised if the management gets the point. Short of starting an online petition, it would be hard to demonstrate that this is a big problem for them and not just one fan complaining.

But in never hurts to try to get across to them that this situation is not right. If you have any news be sure to post it here.

Katie

[Richard]

Hello everybody.

I'm now wondering what Celtic Woman's management have agreed with Hayley. Steve Abbott should know.

Richard

[Martin]

Hi alcan1
I also agree this news is very disappointing for you and other loyal Hayley fans.

I don't know what the USA consumer laws and regulations state in such a situation but here in the UK you would be within your rights to ask for your money back (I did successfully a few years ago when the lead in a West End musical was substituted at short notice by the understudy).

No doubt there will be small print on the back of the ticket that states the Management reserve the right to change any part of the performance without notice but perhaps our Peter S will be able to comment more fully.

At the end of the day I suspect a refund would be at the discretion of the management. The other point to consider of course is that you would still be seeing 5/6 of Celtic Woman.

Best wishes
Martin

[grant]

Hello everyone!

I don't want to get too deep on this subject, but my concern is for Hayley's reputation.

Initially, her association with CW seemed like a dream come true, but if CW management are as inept as has been suggested, then these changes/upsets may adversly affect how Hayley is perceived.

No doubt Steve Abbott will be monitoring the situation and will do whatever is necessary to protect Hayley's reputation.

Grant

[postscript]

Hi Martin.

martin said:

No doubt there will be small print on the back of the ticket that states the Management reserve the right to change any part of the performance without notice but perhaps our Peter S will be able to comment more fully.

You need to remember I did not complete the law degree I started due to work overload and in any case US law and procedures will be somewhat different. Andrew might have a comment to make, although he has yet to complete his degree too but is persevering with it! How's it going, Andrew? He at least wants to practice law, I was only reading law as an incidental interest in legislative procedures.

Simply, you have more or less cracked it: it depends very much upon the clauses in the 'for sale' conditions which one might assume are within statute. Like insurance policies, you will probably find that anything that might reasonably be expected to happen is exempted from liability! This won't be on the back of the ticket. The back of the ticket will simply refer to where the Terms and Conditons can be read!

Peter S.

[fusilier23]

I've read this thread with a mixture of surprise and bemusement, since I ran into a similar situation myself some years ago, which I won't rehash now. Speaking as a US lawyer I can tell you point blank you are wasting your time unless you want to read through all the terms and conditions on all the tickets and the PBS websites, then try to file claims in whatever venue is appropriate, which here in NJ we call the Special Civil Part, this is different from the small claims court in that it handles disputes ranging from values of $500 to $15,000, below that you're in small claims court, above it you're in the actual Civil Part where you have to get into juries and discovery and all that good stuff and it typically takes three years to reach a resolution.

Even assuming you are willing to deal with all that the tickets/licenses for this show typically provide that substitutions and changes can be made with or without prior notice, meaning basically caveat emptor. This is particularly true when there are multiple performers involved and extras involved. I have in fact heard of refunds being given when the soloist for a solo concert was unable to show, in which case the whole event was a wash, I know the York Symphony of PA will do that, and they should, single performers can't be swapped out. I have never heard of such a thing being offered on Broadway when understudies perform for listed players or when members of trios or ensembles were indisposed and unable to perform, although twice when I've seen the Irish Tenors members were ill, in one case Finbar Wright was battling a horrible flu and sang in the ensembles but didn't do any solos, in another John McDermott was fighting a terrible fever, but, to his credit, did all his solos AND a two-hour signing session without batting an eyelash. This is somewhat similar, I suppose, you have all these singers with loyal followings and people who thought they would get to see their fave now not being able to.

The bottom line is that the touring companies and producers have folks like me working for them, either staff or retained, who are paid to tell them what they can and can't get away with. They wouldn't dare have done something like this without consulting with them first. The fact is you really have no remedy, and no one wants to hear angry rants about how you feel like you were robbed or this or that because you bought your tickets before all the details were in place and you knew the score. If the ticket sales aren't final, you're within your rights to return them, and if they are, you're SOL this time out. My advice to everyone here is to make sure you know all the details before you sink a ton of money into an event, and be careful about high expectations, they can come down with a terrible crash. However, by the same token, it's your choice to decide who you will support. If you are unhappy with the way you were treated, then nothing says you have to continue your support, and if you want to withdraw it or even turn on a performer you have become unhappy about, that is your right, though this probably isn't the place to do that. If, however, you want to put up a site to go after Celtic Woman and hate them, it's a free country. Money talks like nothing else.

[alcan1]

It was interesting to read the responses to my last post. I think though Ive been misunderstood. I'm not unhappy with CW or Hayley by any means. I am unhappy that their management has misled and deceived the fans. I fully intend on attending the shows that I have tickets for and I'm looking forward to it. I know its going to be a great show no matter who is singing. However as I stated before, as a direct result of the managements actions I will not attend anymore shows after Radio City Music Hall. It is clear that if the management can behave as they have and mislead the fans as they have then they are capable of anything. Its really sad because they are all wonderfully talented singers and how they could end up with such people running their careers is amazing. Its a catch 22 here. If you support the singers then you are supporting the actions of their management. If you don't support the show then you deprive yourself of seeing a wonderful group. After Radio City I will have seen 13 shows. I would have liked to have seen at least a couple a year, continuing to host an annual group event like we have done the last 2 years but I am not willing to say to management that their behavior is acceptable by directly giving them and PBS financial support. Sad thing is there are many of the long time fans that feel the exact same way. Every group has its zenith. The zenith for Celtic Woman occurred from March - July 2006. I think time and history will confirm this. At least I was able to see them live during this period.

[fusilier23]

Got news for you, Tony, this isn't the first time this kinda nonsense has happened with PBS and pledging. Every time I've gotten my tix privately I've been satisfied, but the one time I got Hayley tix through TV39 in PA it was later revealed that better seats than the ones I got were available conventionally, and another pledge I made was an utter disaster, but feel free to PM me if you want the details of that. The fact is that these PBS stations don't run things like a business, they're used to working off government grants and contributions. Even after I paid a sizable $140 contribution to TV39 for the Hayley in Easton tix, which I didn't mind, it was a great show and I got to say hi to Hayley afterward, I was getting letters that Christmas asking me to contribute $40 more because they were running a financial gap they needed to close, which went right to the circular file. But there was no guarantee the tix would go on public sale later, and i didn't know when next I'd get to see her, so I jumped. I am almost certain that PBS probably knew what was going to go on, they were probably even in on the joke, but in the end it's about dollars and cents, and with concert tix you can get a lot of non-refundable $$. I'm a collector of toy soldiers, and if I paid for a set of 6 and only received 5 you bet I'd be back at the shop the next day telling the shopkeeper either complete the set or give me my money back.

My concern is that the other thing, which was a total disaster, led to a lot of posting very similar to this, and this kind of posting can become the crack that widens into a chasm. The fact is that a lot of these singers have fans who will brook no criticism and something like this is going to become a LIGHTNING ROD for harsh posts responding to yours calling you unsupportive and calling for your ouster or even in some cases, threatening violence, I've seen posts that said anyone who criticized should be chopped up with a machete or that if anyone said this performer was wrongly opinionated "I'll come knock your skull in." These are extreme, but they do get posted, then other like-minded folks join the fight, then the fight spirals, then moderators who really have no choice but to back those who are totally loyal to the performers resort to deletion and banning, which leads to cries of censorship and favoritism, and ultimately the only folks left still interested in the performers are the stupid, the easily manipulated, and the fanatical.

I have no qualms about tearing into someone who I think needs to get torn into, or going after someone who I think deserves it, but this kind of thing can be very destructive to a fanbase, and what's destructive to the fanbase is ultimately destructive to the performers. I pray, let's not go down that path.

[alien]

Hi alcan1,

Thank you for the information. Since the Celtic Woman will be in Seattle in May, I've been planning a trip there while waiting for the tickets to go on sale. The fact that it's uncertain whether Hayley or Meav will be performing does make the decision more difficult. I'm fairly sure the show will be as good as if not better than the one shown on PBS but it would be much better if both Hayley and Meav can perform together. The uncertainty induced by the Celtic Woman management is bad for the fans.

Hopefully more info will be available in the coming months as the tickets become available to the public.

Allen

[roger]

Hi alcan1 and everyone else who wishes to know the specific concerts in which Hayley is participating. I have heard from Steve Abbott in the past few minutes that the events in which she is involved have not yet been confirmed to him (which is pretty much as I expected). He has promised to send through her full schedule as soon as it is available.

Roger

[Russ]

roger said:

Hi alcan1 and everyone else who wishes to know the specific concerts in which Hayley is participating. I have heard from Steve Abbott in the past few minutes that the events in which she is involved have not yet been confirmed to him (which is pretty much as I expected). He has promised to send through her full schedule as soon as it is available.

Roger

Thanks for the update, Roger!


Russ

[fusilier23]

(laughs) The idiocy has already started with people either making condescending posts telling those who aren't happy to essentially sit down, shut up, and deal with it, or in some cases screaming that in all caps, and inevitably the post saying that no true fan would complain, not to mention mocking posts about dogs.

I think it's funny on some level, here you see people's true nature. Face to face you would be unlikely to mock someone or scream at them to shut up, but here on the net people are just fine with it, and yes, I've been just as guilty.

This is definitely going to spoil this for some, and in the end it may spell doom for CW's fanbase in the US. People don't ike being lied to, but they also don't like harsh arguments. Good luck.

[postscript]

Thanks fusillier23 for your detailed response.
Peter S.

[alcan1]

fusilier23 said:

(laughs) The idiocy has already started with people either making condescending posts telling those who aren't happy to essentially sit down, shut up, and deal with it, or in some cases screaming that in all caps, and inevitably the post saying that no true fan would complain, not to mention mocking posts about dogs.

I think it's funny on some level, here you see people's true nature. Face to face you would be unlikely to mock someone or scream at them to shut up, but here on the net people are just fine with it, and yes, I've been just as guilty.

This is definitely going to spoil this for some, and in the end it may spell doom for CW's fan base in the US. People don't Ike being lied to, but they also don't like harsh arguments. Good luck.

Yes you are 100% correct. Funny thing is there is a simple fix to the whole problem. It only requires 2 small things.
1......Run that tour with all 6 as much as possible. They did it for the DVD why not on the tour. If anyone can think of a reason why they shouldn't do it as they did on the DVD I'm all ears as to why a 6 member show wont work.

2..........CW management must start giving out information as they plan things. Why they refuse to update websites have a "Top Secret" attitude Ill never know. They should work with the fan base not against them.

There is really no need for this type of situation to be happening in the first place. Why weren't they honest from the beginning? Now heres the part that boggles my mind. How can Hayley's manager tolerate this type of conduct. Isn't he supposed to do whats in the best interest of Hayley's career? If they are keeping him in the dark that should be a red flag.

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