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Post by Libby on Dec 21, 2009 0:17:14 GMT
Yeah, I wouldn't say Bond is obscure, either. I come across them a lot on Internet crossover stations. I usually skip them, though. Rhydian may not be obscure in the UK, but I don't think he's very well-known in the U.S. I bet the majority of Americans who have heard of him are also Hayley fans. Actually, most of these artists I would never have heard of if I was not a Hayley fan. I certainly understand why Martin wants her to be in everyone, but I agree it would show favoritism over the artists. Even if you like her best, it wouldn't seem fair to the others.
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Post by Libby on Dec 21, 2009 0:24:41 GMT
After viewing your video, I noticed something from an artist named Sepira. I had seen that Hayley is following somebody named Sephira, so I listened to it. It calls her an "Irish crossover artist". She sounds nice; she reminds me of Lisa from Celtic Woman. Nothing incredible, though.
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Post by martindn on Dec 21, 2009 22:19:15 GMT
Hi Nicola,
Yes perhaps I am unfair, but I just consider Hayley to be head and shoulders above every other singer I have ever heard. So, since for me she is Classical Crossover's best artist by a country mile, the best way to promote that music is to always make sure she is always prominently included. If she is left out, it sells the CC genre short.
I have never cried as a result of hearing any of those other voices, yet Hayley had me in tears in seconds the first time I heard her. And had done so many times since, something no other crossover artist has ever managed.
Of course, it might be that Hayley's repertoire is wider than the CC genre. Where are its limits is an interesting question.
Martin D
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Post by nicola on Dec 21, 2009 22:47:30 GMT
But Martin, it's not about your consideration or mine, about who is head and shoulders above the rest - everyone is different. Many people feel nothing for Hayley. That doesn't make them wrong - just means they look for something different, and all those different aspects will be represented on my site - that's what it's all about. My website is about promoting ALL classical crossover music and cementing the genre, not just one or two artists that I consider to be the best. Also - just because there are artists you do not know of, it doesn't make them obscure. I try my best not to be anglo-centric, but it can be difficult. But here is an idea of actually how varied my (random!) selection was:
Camilla Kerslake - Hyped up new artist Thomas Spencer-Wortley - Obscure Bond - Pioneering group of CC - 4 million albums sold Rhydian - 640,000 albums sold worldwide All Angels - 500,000 albums sold in the UK Grace Bawden - Obscure; though was in the live final rounds of Australia's Got Talent RyanDan - Top ten album in main charts in UK and Canada Yulia - Two number one albums in New Zealand Emma Shapplin - One of the pioneering artists of CC - big international name (no presence in the UK) Diana Yukawa - Two number one albums in Japan
If it makes you feel any better, I'll be making a Christmas Taster special for Christmas week tomorrow - dedicated to artists that have made Christmas albums. Hayley WILL be in that one.
Either way, there's more to classical crossover than Hayley (and vice versa!) so please accept the fact that my website is not just about promoting her, but promoting as many as I can and as equally (though natural bias must slip in every now and again, though I don't mean it to).
I was offended by your post, if I'm honest.
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Post by martindn on Dec 21, 2009 23:17:03 GMT
Hi Nicola,
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I was simply trying to explain the vast gulf that I see between Hayley and the rest. I fully accept that not everone sees things the same way, and that others opinions are just as valid as mine.
The truth is, if I never heard any of those others singers ever again, I wouldn't really miss them. Perhaps a mild regret about Aled and Rhydian and Jonathan and Andrea, but that's all. If I never heard Hayley again I would be devastated. That is the difference.
So perhaps I don't really like Classical Crossover after all, I just like Hayley! After all, I've always felt sympatheitic to Postscript's comment that Hayley could sing the telephone directory and he would enjoy it.
Just about the only other things I listen to these days is 1970s Prog Rock and classical symphonies, and even then I'd rather be listening to Hayley.
Martin D
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Post by mihizawi on Dec 21, 2009 23:42:20 GMT
Hi, Martin and Nicola... I've been following this discussion for quite a while, and it was clear how it would end up... Your points were very clear from te beginning, and that they were truly divergent.
Martin, I, and many of us here, understand perfectly how you feel about Hayley. But, please, would you accept a fruendly advice from an Hayleyfan to a Hayleyfan, just so we try to avoid such situations? Your devotion to Hayley is just great, but maybe you could try to fully show it in threads concernig just Hayley, and avoid to be so extreme in threads about wider topics. It's a Hayley fan forum, so it's natural to have her always as a reference, but we've got to respect other artists and also people who think Hayley is not the best
I hope you don't mind me giving you this advice, there's nothing bad in the way you feel about Hayley.
Michal
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Post by nicola on Dec 22, 2009 17:27:32 GMT
Well to Martin's pleasure, Hayley is on the Christmas special I made. www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xnvVcpcDcAs to the part that offended me - I spent hours making my first video, was quite excited about it, and then you just shot it down. But it doesn't matter, the "pride" of making my first video quickly wore off! XD This Christmas video didn't take me nearly as long. Would have been nice if more artists did 'Christmas photo shoots" like Hayley had done. I apologise for the picture quality of Linda Tolchard's album cover - it's what they gave me! It looks awful! XD XD
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Post by BenCMitchell on Dec 22, 2009 18:15:38 GMT
Well to Martin's pleasure, Hayley is on the Christmas special I made. www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xnvVcpcDcAs to the part that offended me - I spent hours making my first video, was quite excited about it, and then you just shot it down. But it doesn't matter, the "pride" of making my first video quickly wore off! XD This Christmas video didn't take me nearly as long. Would have been nice if more artists did 'Christmas photo shoots" like Hayley had done. I apologise for the picture quality of Linda Tolchard's album cover - it's what they gave me! It looks awful! XD XD That is a brilliant video Nicola! Very well made! Good job!
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Post by mihizawi on Dec 22, 2009 19:50:04 GMT
Yeah, forgot to say, Nicola, both videos are nicely done and quite interesting. I am sure with time you may be able to do more ambitious things in video-editting.
Michal
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Post by martindn on Dec 23, 2009 16:34:37 GMT
Ni Nicola,
Excellent! I think this one hits the happy medium, with a selection of leading artists plus one or two that I certainly hadn't heard before. Well done!
Martin D
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Post by Elliot Kane on Dec 23, 2009 16:55:41 GMT
Nice job there, Nicola! Good selection, with enough time for any listener to tell whether they are likely to appeal or not
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Post by Tasslehoff on Dec 26, 2009 3:25:12 GMT
Hi Nicola, Is it possible to ban users for a few weeks who repetitively rate an artist 1 out of 5. I think someone is going out of their way to sabotage Hayleys ranking, as she was rated 4.93 with about 320 votes 2 days ago and now only 4.81 with 342 votes. As a diligent 5 star rating voter myself, that variation isn't possible with that amount of votes without someone fudging the figures, cheers and Merry Christmas.
Edit nooo: 4.79
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Post by martindn on Dec 26, 2009 23:56:08 GMT
Yes, I have noticed that too! In fact I think at one point Hayley was up at 4.96! Now she is 4.75. I am very tempted to retaliate, by consistenly voting 1 star to any artist who threatens Hayley's position, or even for all other artists except Hayley.. I haven't, I consider that unethical and prefer to vote according to my real opinion of the artists. If people are doing that to Hayley, and others start to retaliate, I think it destroys the whole point of the chart. It is strange that this has only happened in the few days leading up to the publication of a new chart. Nicola, are you reading this?
Martin D
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Post by nicola on Dec 27, 2009 21:15:57 GMT
If someone is consistently voting one on Hayley, that's their (rather sad) choice. It's just a random chart on an obscure website. The site allows for any opinion, every two hours. I won't demonise somebody that doesn't like Hayley, for whatever reason.
To address the issue you have raised though - if I banned someone that is consistently voting one on Hayley, or any other artist, then by the same token, I should ban people that consistently vote 5. You get fanatics that vote obsessively, and at least the "one" voters level it out a bit.
HOWEVER
Actually voting for an artist - rating them one or five - is helping them either way. Scores are worked out by "number of votes" x "score". So lets say someone voted Hayley 20 times with a rating of "one". Let's say that it changed the average from 4.96, to 4.75.
First, this would be Hayleys overall score if no 'one voters' came along:
4.96 x 200 = 992
Now, with the one voters help but with the slightly lowered rating:
4.75 x 220 = 1045
Yes, it lowered the rating, but voting in the first place brings the score up for that artist. The one vote is not particularly helpful to an artist that only has a few votes, as it will lower their score quite significantly, but for someone like Hayley or Rhydian - they have far too many five voters for one voters to have any real effect.
I say this, but I do ask for people not to get silly about vengeful voting or any of that. It's a bit childish, but at the same time, I won't stop you. If one fanbase is doing it, so is another. It balances out in the end. Remember, it's just for fun.
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Post by martindn on Dec 27, 2009 22:35:30 GMT
OK, thanks for that Nicola. Spoiling tactics are OK! I don't like it but I'll go along with it.
For example, suppose Rhydian, or Sarah Brightman gets ahead of Hayley. So I vote 1 for each of them, every two hours, even though my real opinion of both artists is much better than that. But I want Hayley to be No 1, so I consistently vote the minumum for everyone else, in defiance of my real aopinion.
I think people are actually doing that. I don't like it, but if that is the rule then we will have to run with it. Five stars for Hayley, 1 (or if it could be done zero) for everyone else. I think this sort of tactical voting completely destroys any credibility this chart might have had. Trouble is, some people will believe it is some sort of real reflection of artists popularity.
I have just given 1 star to Sarah Brightman (yes, she is better than that) to see what would happen and her score dropped by 0.01. So, if I do it every 2 hours it will unfairly affect her score. But this dropped her below Hayley, and I see that is her position iin the new chart. Does Hayley have me to thank for that?
The point is, voting 1 because I want a particular artist to win does not mean I don't like those other artists. It is entirely cynical and entirely tactical, and I think it is happening. If you want to do that fair enough, but it then comes down to whose fans are best able to survive without sleep!
I think in the real world Katherine Jenkins would probably win everything. Where is she?
Martin D
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