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Post by larryhauck on Sept 9, 2010 1:18:24 GMT
I think they (her family) keep pressing to call her a classical crossover singer. I've never seen the term so much in the American press. I saw one paper say 'Jackie calls herself something called "Classical Crossover"' I got the image in my head that the writer was hanging the term as far as possible away from themselves with the tip of their thumb and finger and pinching their nose, as if it was an alien, smelly thing. XD Well Billboard.com doesn't seem to have a classical crossover chart any more, they renamed it the Classical Chart last year. Perhaps 'classical crossover' is considered 'old hat' in the US music industry these days? Dave Hi Nic and Dave, I had never heard the term classical/crossover till I discovered Hayley and HWI. The U S is hung up on country and rap. I don't want to be too critical of my homeland; but when Taylor Swift was put into the songwriters hall of fame I almost passed out. Well we're only 234 ears old ....so give us another couple of hundred years and maybe we'll catch up with the rest of the music world. Larry |
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Post by Libby on Sept 9, 2010 5:46:09 GMT
That's an interesting assessment. Our country may be young, but the people who came here weren't new people. Why didn't they bring their appreciation of good music over?  And America only likes country and rap? Umm, Lady Gaga may be distasteful, but she's definitely not rap or country.  And to me Taylor Swift's version of country really isn't that country. It's more of a pop country. Even Carrie Underwood is a little too pop/rock in my view. But at least she has a good voice. Actually, even Lady Gaga's voice isn't bad, it's just her song lyrics and wardrobe - or lack thereof - that are in bad taste. The song "Alejandro" wouldn't be too bad if I didn't have the image in my head of her traipsing around in her drawers to go along with it.  |
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Post by stevemacdonald on Sept 9, 2010 6:54:29 GMT
Here's an interesting article along with with readers' comments about Jackie, her technique and her future: Los Angeles Times |
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Post by milewalker on Sept 9, 2010 8:05:10 GMT
I have already been there and done that Steve  Really though I was a bit bemused by the article. Dont you think that this train left the track some time ago - ie everything I see suggests a girl trying to hit it big - with the complete support of her family. Nicola may have insight into this that I dont of course because she has had some direct contact with the family. My read is that her situation is pretty much on a par with Faryl Smith in 2008. Jon |
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Post by nicola on Sept 9, 2010 9:15:09 GMT
People are projecting their own wishes and expectations onto Jackie, but as Jackie, Lisa and Mike have made clear, she has no intentions of becoming an opera singer. Lisa told me this directly and in plain English. The press keep being told as well, but people are too caught up in what they think they see and their own perceptions.
As to America previously having a classical crossover chart: I think it was set up in the literal sense. i.e. classical albums are applicable, and it was simply called crossover because it charted, it wasn't called crossover because of the genre or sound.
I think America knows the term 'popera' a bit better, but I loathe that term.
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Post by milewalker on Sept 9, 2010 9:52:16 GMT
People are projecting their own wishes and expectations onto Jackie, but as Jackie, Lisa and Mike have made clear, she has no intentions of becoming an opera singer. Lisa told me this directly and in plain English. The press keep being told as well, but people are too caught up in what they think they see and their own perceptions. As to America previously having a classical crossover chart: I think it was set up in the literal sense. i.e. classical albums are applicable, and it was simply called crossover because it charted, it wasn't called crossover because of the genre or sound. I think America knows the term 'popera' a bit better, but I loathe that term. In truth, we dont use the term "popera" very much Nicola. I am not sure what you mean about the charts. There is the Billboard pop chart, which is different than the Billboard Classical chart etc. There is also another chart which used to be easier to find than it is today apparantly called classical crossover. At one point in 2001, Charlotte Church and Sarah Brightman held 6 spots in the top 10. Neither of them were on the classical charts at all (but they would be on the pop charts during the peak of an albums sales cycle) Getting back on topic, there is always an unfortunate tendancy to perceive a phenomenon like Jackie in terms of our own hopes and fears. In her case, if someone else calls her an "angel" I think I may go postal Jon |
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Post by Dave on Sept 9, 2010 11:43:22 GMT
People are projecting their own wishes and expectations onto Jackie, but as Jackie, Lisa and Mike have made clear, she has no intentions of becoming an opera singer. Lisa told me this directly and in plain English. The press keep being told as well, but people are too caught up in what they think they see and their own perceptions. As to America previously having a classical crossover chart: I think it was set up in the literal sense. i.e. classical albums are applicable, and it was simply called crossover because it charted, it wasn't called crossover because of the genre or sound. I think America knows the term 'popera' a bit better, but I loathe that term. In truth, we dont use the term "popera" very much Nicola. I am not sure what you mean about the charts. There is the Billboard pop chart, which is different than the Billboard Classical chart etc. There is also another chart which used to be easier to find than it is today apparantly called classical crossover. At one point in 2001, Charlotte Church and Sarah Brightman held 6 spots in the top 10. Neither of them were on the classical charts at all (but they would be on the pop charts during the peak of an albums sales cycle) Yes indeed Jon, I said Billboard.com has renamed what I *think* is the classical crossover chart as the Classical Chart mainly because Katherine Jenkins' 'Believe' is in it (which is by no stretch of imagination classical as such). And as that's what the American public has access to so that's all they will know exists - the Classical Chart. List of Billboard.com 'free' charts.Billboard.biz has a larger Billboard charts list for subscribers and they do seem to have two different charts called classical, and classical crossover. Hayley, Josh, Katherine and the rest were always previously excluded from the 'Classical' chart so it looks like Billboard.com are publishing the old classical crossover chart as "Classical". If Katherine wasn't in it, I wouldn't have known, as most of the rest of it *could be* be genuinely classical albums this week, it's all very strange. Regarding Jackie, it looks like the TV and music industry moguls have now taken her on and are perhaps clearing the decks (of her first album) ready for their big push to make money. Please excuse the cynicism but that's how I feel about TV reality shows as a breed, I think however well she does initially, which will be very well indeed by all accounts, she will be lucky if they are still interested in her in five years time - and then, she'll still be only 15!  Of course, I hope they are still interested but my goodness, 10 is such a very young age to be getting into these things at that level; I have concerns about that and would have for any 10 year old. Cheers, Dave |
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Post by milewalker on Sept 9, 2010 14:44:30 GMT
Hi Dave, I am usually pretty cynical myself, as you may remember. This being said I also try to be a realist. Jackie has been on a fast track towards discovery for several months. The Pittsburg media was already quite aware of her. How many talent contests entered does it take to get a sense that the Evancho's were aggressively promoting their daughter? It might have better if the process was slower, but Jackie's instrument apparantly thought otherwise. She took a great leap forward about six months to a year ago, and the result of this and her parents promotion was that if AGT didnt happen, it was inevitable that something else would sooner rather than later. Unfortunately, all of this comes with the distinct possibility that her voice wont last the five years you are hoping for. I didnt mention it above because I was trying to stick with the positive, but I am not blind. Those vocal flaws I said were evident above are not only the ones you can hear. She may be able to train around problems, but then again she is traveling on roads that I dont think anyone has been on for a while. A post in the other music section might comfort me - Julie Andrews and Beverly Sills made it. But how many tried and failed in that pre internet era that we never heard about? What is the shelf life of a young female classical crossover singer? Hayley has been around for about ten,years but from an American point of view never really happened, and is a sort of fading ember to those of us who are aware of her. Charlotte lasted three or four years - a bit longer maybe as a curiousity. While Nicola tries to keep the embers alive - I applaud her for that.- for every one of them there are likely a dozen Becky Taylors and Yulia Townsends, and Elizabeth Marvellys that I will never know. Is your assessment of Jackie's future that much worse that this? We in America have a saying (at least I think its American). It says "Make hay while the sun shines." My postion regarding Jackie has been informed by these sentiments. If her handlers are smart she could make this pretty lucrative for herself. Is that "cynical" enough for you? Jon PS Nicola - given Jackies age, instead of popera, why not call it popsical? |
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Post by nicola on Sept 9, 2010 15:20:52 GMT
This is going on to a different topic slightly, but it really does depend what you mean by the ember. Do you mean massive lights and beacons and number one albums on major record labels? If so, the shelf life is barely one album.
However, the industry is changing. Going on to major labels, is, if anything, a waste of time and (a lot) of money these days. Yulia, for example, is an independent artist, and she is making a handsome amount of money for herself and for charities. She is always performing concerts, promoting and working. She never made any money whilst she was getting number one albums with Sony (she was in debt, in fact). Likewise, if you think Hayley was getting paid during 'Pure' and 'Odyssey' you are naive.
I think people need to start thinking differently about what makes a successful career. Being signed and appearing on TV shows doesn't mean much. It doesn't last long, and artists come out of it in debt and can't continue on with their career. Only if you make it as big as Katherine do you actually make any money. The best you can do with a major label is let them launch you, get a fanbase, then cut and run and do it yourself. That's a career. If Jackie doesn't last long on Simon's label, at least she will have the resources to continue on properly.
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Post by stevemacdonald on Sept 9, 2010 17:56:45 GMT
...We in America have a saying (at least I think its American). It says "Make hay while the sun shines." My postion regarding Jackie has been informed by these sentiments. If her handlers are smart she could make this pretty lucrative for herself. ... Let's not forget that she is not on a singing competition show, but rather a program meant to fanfare sheer talent. She's been up against sword swallowers, jugglers, bicycle stunt riders, jiving dancers, etc. She's pretty much it in the singing sensation dept, Prince Poppycock nothwithstanding. What the show's producers are aiming for, best I can tell, is a spectacle to bring in the masses when they tour. Marketing Jackie as a wunderkind extraordinaire is their obvious strategy should she win. But another possibility exists: movies and television roles. Jackie is undeniably photogenic and increasingly charismatic each time out. She would be sensationally good at something other than just singing, such as acting in the right part. The wow factor can spread her appeal in many directions. Look for bigger things than merely singing. |
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Post by milewalker on Sept 9, 2010 22:45:06 GMT
Nicola and Steve, Nicola, there are discusions ad nauseam about Hayley, the direction of her career, and the dynamics which support it buried on this forum. I was one of the most active (and certainly most irritating )participants at the time I would strongly suggest you actually go and read them before you decide to call me naive. I am fully aware the of industry changes with regard to the dynamics between artists and the record companies. I would suggest that a successful career is one which produces enough objective achievements which can be talked about and shared by people on websites like this. One reason why things like total album sales or chart placement have been useful in the past is simply because such traditional measures of success fit this criterion. We can argue about what the sales of Charlotte Church vs Sarah Brightman might mean, but the numbers themselves are indisputable. One of the first things we heard about Jackie Evancho was the success of her AGT performance videos on the internet. That too is something which can be counted. However, another possibly more important mark of a successful career is simply the size of the profile of the artist. Call it media imprint. Traditionally album sales may be directly beneficial only the to the record company, but they also generate profile, which results indirectly in touring and more touring which in turn produces more profile. There is a simple reason why my participation in discussions on this site varies dramatically. Months come and go without a single discussion topic coming up where I am placed to make a contribution. The primary reason for this is that Hayley really has no profile in the US at all. So, call be naive, but my main criteria of success is that a career be big enough to produce a measurable profile over here - or perhaps the career should be big enough over there to produce a profile big enough that they even attempt to tour widely here. What are the odds that any of the artists we discussed above will ever play Powell Symphony Hall in St Louis? Hayley has appeared as a solo act one time within 500 miles of me in her entire career. The dynamics are such that even an American act can only sustain a major tour with major corporate backing. The decline of the importance of CD sales and record company power only makes that kind of support more important. Without corporate backing, most international acts get about as far as a couple of appearance in New York or Los Angeles. Unfortunately, while Yulia may be able to support herself (and that is certainly a good thing) careers of that size wont appear more than once or twice in a lifetime. That makes any participation of Jon the fan in her career nearly impossible. Steve - your possibilities are not mutually exclusive. Such side possibilities arise from a high profile as well dont they? So does the possibility that she might actually be able to pull off a reasonably substantial career without major corporate backing. I am not saying that will happen merely that it is a possibility. Do you often combine german and french words into phrases for English sentances?  Jon |
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Post by Dave on Sept 10, 2010 0:12:48 GMT
I hope I didn't appear too negative about Jackie and her career prospects, I didn't intend it to look that way. Her singing is certainly impressive for her age, though I tend to judge all singers in absolute terms so I'm never going to be as enthusiastic about her (or anyone else that young) as some of you are. But if a child does get the kind of opportunity that it appears Jackie will soon have, it's going to be hard for any parent to deny her that opportunity so most parents would, I think, encourage or at least allow it to happen. So I'm not aiming any criticism at them (or Jackie). My opinion about their advisors and the TV/music industry's handling of her may be different, but I'll reserve judgement on that until we see what happens. One 'little' thing that worries me though, as it did with Charlotte Church (though I was never a Charlotte fan - I didn't reach this forum by that route), is Jackie's jaw wobble. I just find it disturbing at times, does anyone else? I do wonder what causes it, and if it's a concern? Can't say that I've ever seen it with Hayley, not even in her early videos, but we saw it a lot with Charlotte, so it puzzles me. Cheers, Dave PS Jon, I do agree that one thing you are not is naive! |
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Post by milewalker on Sept 10, 2010 1:53:21 GMT
Hi Dave, A jaw wobble is usually caused by a problem with the muscles supporting the throat and jaw when singing. It can happen to an adult when they are tiring , or more troublingly when they are working around some other injury. In a child, it tends to happen when they are trying to produce more power than they are really capable of doing well. The muscles arent up to absorbing it, so the jaw shakes. In Jackie's Memory video it isnt pronounced at all - but it was quite pronounced while singing on AGT. This has everything to do with the size of the material and the power they are trying to produce while singing it. Unfortunately, one of the major draws to people like Jackie is the "small frame/big voice" phenomenon - which encourages them to oversing. Hayley did some big songs when she was young, but I never had the sense she was trying to oversing - she was restrained at the expense of some power. Charlotte was trying to fill the room with sound. Jackie sometimes got carried away, but the circumstances surrounding AGT have made the problem much worse in those appearances than it generally has been. The chief problem is that over time it produces problems with ptich. Picture trying to play a violin from the back of a bouncing pickup truck. I think in terms of the minimum level of professional standards which are necessary to support a career. Obviously this is lower in a 10 year old than a 30 year old, but not necessarily a lot lower. One way of looking at Charlotte's career is that she established what the minimum standards were for a 13 year old classical singer at the time. As it happens there are things about adult sopranos I detest and things about Charlotte I actually liked, so go figure. Charlotte does illustrate one other powerful force at work. The bar raised as she aged. She was great at 13, but merely good at 15, and probably mediocre now. That however reflects Charlotte's individual development. My interest in Jackie is not really her current sound. It is what she could do in bits and pieces at age 8 and early 9. As she went through her ninth year I noted that she was beginning to put more and more of these bits and pieces of good singing together into individual performances. It is not her current level of singing which interests me so much as the projection of where she could be so quickly given some luck and good training.. She compares well to Beverly Sills at 8, and at times now is almost on a level with Church at 12/13. I compared the audeo of Jackie's Pie Jesu with a performance Charlotte did at 13 years 3 months. Charlotte wins on points, but really, they are comparible performances. Hayley at 13/14 is another question entirely and the jury is out on that one - the bar doth rise. Jon PS Thanks for that.....I think  |
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Post by nicola on Sept 10, 2010 7:20:41 GMT
I didn't say you were naive, Jon? I said if anyone thinks Hayley made money during her first albums they are naive. So unless you thought that, then I guess I was calling you naive. Otherwise, no, I said no such thing.
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Post by Libby on Sept 10, 2010 20:58:53 GMT
Malvina Major talked about "juttering" in Hayley's DVD, but she was referring to breath support. I would imagine Jackie is well aware of how to support her breathing correctly. I think some singers just do it, and others don't.
So, Nicola, did you approve of Jackie's song choice this time?
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Really though I was a bit bemused by the article. Dont you think that this train left the track some time ago - ie everything I see suggests a girl trying to hit it big - with the complete support of her family. Nicola may have insight into this that I dont of course because she has had some direct contact with the family. My read is that her situation is pretty much on a par with Faryl Smith in 2008.
Of course, I hope they are still interested but my goodness, 10 is such a very young age to be getting into these things at that level; I have concerns about that and would have for any 10 year old.