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Post by grant on Jan 11, 2009 0:03:17 GMT
Hello Astrid and welcome to the forum from Central England. Yet according to this forum she is one of the most rigidly strict Christians in the history of the earth. I don't know what gave you that idea. I don't think anyone here feels that to be the case and certainly non of the regular posters have ever expressed that view. As Martin has said her faith is part of her private life but many here on this forum, including myself, enjoy the fact that Hayley does sing Christian songs and hope that she will continue to do so. Best wishes Grant |
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Post by larryhauck on Jan 11, 2009 1:06:44 GMT
Astrid,
I'm not opposed to songs alluding to sex; but I don't know why it has to be a prerequisite for an artist to be successful. Also I don't get the connection between Christianity and sex.
Hayley or any other artist for that matter may choose songs they like regardless of the sex or lack of it in the content.
Country artists seem to prefer songs of lost loves, lamentable situations, and other sorrowful types. Many of their songs rely on sex.
If sex is necessary in a song it's o k. But to make it the focus doesn't seem to make any sense to me. Sex and religion are private matters not to be criticized.
Larry
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Post by milewalker on Jan 11, 2009 1:10:37 GMT
Hello and welcome Astrid, For my part I was merely picking up a point made above by someone else above. Taylor Swift is a very popular singer in the US who has a history something like Hayley's. Hayley doesnt enjoy that level of popularity here, so I thought it might be instructive to see the kinds of things Taylor does but Hayley does not (for the most part) As a matter of fact, Hayley has done one song which in my opinion was not only better musically, but also rather direct in exactly the ways that Taylor is - Summer Fly. She has done other love songs which also fit to a lesser extent like My Heart Belongs to You. I think it is fair to say however, that she is identified by most people - including most of her fans - as primarily a singer of a very different kind of repertoire. As I see it, Hayley's career took a certain path, in the process of which she acquired a fan base which is somewhat more conservative than the norm - a conservatism which takes different forms for different people, sometimes cultural, sometimes affecting the kind of music her fans expect her to sing, and sometimes it expresses itself in "spritual" terms. When I was speaking of compromise above, I wasnt talking about Hayley or her personal beliefs at all. I was thinking more about things Hayley could do to be more popular (it is always the US with me  ) and still keep her existing fan base more or less in line. Jon |
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Post by larryhauck on Jan 11, 2009 1:24:55 GMT
Jon,
Taylor Swift, in my opinion, is just another attractive young country singer capable of achieving meter and rhyme in her mediocre songs. The country audience in the U S has to have one like her every few years to feed their insatiable appetite for new stars to appear on their multitude of t v award shows.
Since Hayley's career is the polar opposite of country music why compare the two.
I would love to see Hayley achieve success in the U S. But I think she would have to dumb down to do it. Like Maria Callas appearing on the Grand old Opry.
Larry
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Post by milewalker on Jan 11, 2009 1:37:28 GMT
Hi Larry
I have heard people claim that Hayley is just another attractive crossover artist capable of producing a sweet enough sound that the unwashed actually believe there is artistic merit there. In my opinion, by your dismissal of Taylor (how many people are performing their own material at 16 -mediocre or not) you are making the same mistake - certainly you are applying very similar logic.
Taylor is a songwriter - and she can write songs which have a mass appeal to their intended audience. This is a major accomplishment regardless of how you spin it.
I can take or leave her myself - but that isnt the point......My wife likes Taylor a whole lot more than she does Hayley. So does my daughter, and my granddaughter. I would therefore like to see an objective way you can claim that Shouda Said No is a lesser song than Let Me Lie. If causing people to feel things is one of the purposes of writing music, isnt the song which affect more people the better song on that basis?
I was also not saying that Hayley should emulate Taylor. That doesnt mean that Taylor or that kind of success is irrelevant, or that Hayley cant learn something from the appeal of Taylor's songs.
Jon
Ps Dave - I am intruiged by Hayley's Japanese effots as well. However, I do suspect that she is going to come up against a pretty sharp limit to her future appeal because of culture and language issues - I think a Japanese artist could be a one hit wonder in the US as well....I could easily be wrong about this, and the next album will certainly tell us more.
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Post by azstrid on Jan 11, 2009 3:44:11 GMT
Hello Astrid and welcome to the forum from Central England. Yet according to this forum she is one of the most rigidly strict Christians in the history of the earth. I don't know what gave you that idea. I don't think anyone here feels that to be the case and certainly non of the regular posters have ever expressed that view. As Martin has said her faith is part of her private life but many here on this forum, including myself, enjoy the fact that Hayley does sing Christian songs and hope that she will continue to do so. Best wishes Grant I seem to have lost my password and so I've made another ID. Perhaps I have read too much into some comments. There was a comment somewhere to the effect that Hayley would never sing certain songs. I'm not sure whether it was made by a regular or not. I enjoy hymns too. More the old traditional ones, it's true, and I don't mind what she sings, as long as it is a good song. There are a number of old traditional hymns and traditional gospel songs - and some more modern ones - that I'd very much like to hear her sing. "Down to the River", is one of my favorites and that is the sort of song that seems very popular with people of all persuasions. That is the type of song that I think could help her career, notice from the comments on YouTube that Christians and Unbelievers very much enjoy it - the ideal situation |
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Post by azstrid on Jan 11, 2009 3:53:36 GMT
Astrid, I'm not opposed to songs alluding to sex; but I don't know why it has to be a prerequisite for an artist to be successful. Also I don't get the connection between Christianity and sex. Hayley or any other artist for that matter may choose songs they like regardless of the sex or lack of it in the content. Country artists seem to prefer songs of lost loves, lamentable situations, and other sorrowful types. Many of their songs rely on sex. If sex is necessary in a song it's o k. But to make it the focus doesn't seem to make any sense to me. Sex and religion are private matters not to be criticized. Larry I hope that it isn't a pre-requisite for success. I simply meant that being Christian doesn't rule out songs dealing with it. We seem to be largely in agreement on this anyway. And if it is part of a song, a good song won't deal with it in a coarse and vulgar fashion. I am certainly not sugesting that it should be a major part of Hayley's repertoire either, or something she "focuses" on just not completely excluded. |
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Post by azstrid on Jan 11, 2009 4:06:50 GMT
Hello and welcome Astrid, For my part I was merely picking up a point made above by someone else above. Taylor Swift is a very popular singer in the US who has a history something like Hayley's. Hayley doesnt enjoy that level of popularity here, so I thought it might be instructive to see the kinds of things Taylor does but Hayley does not (for the most part) As a matter of fact, Hayley has done one song which in my opinion was not only better musically, but also rather direct in exactly the ways that Taylor is - Summer Fly. She has done other love songs which also fit to a lesser extent like My Heart Belongs to You. I think it is fair to say however, that she is identified by most people - including most of her fans - as primarily a singer of a very different kind of repertoire. As I see it, Hayley's career took a certain path, in the process of which she acquired a fan base which is somewhat more conservative than the norm - a conservatism which takes different forms for different people, sometimes cultural, sometimes affecting the kind of music her fans expect her to sing, and sometimes it expresses itself in "spritual" terms. When I was speaking of compromise above, I wasnt talking about Hayley or her personal beliefs at all. I was thinking more about things Hayley could do to be more popular (it is always the US with me ) and still keep her existing fan base more or less in line. Jon Forgive my ignorance, but is Taylor Swift an American? That Hayley is not popular in the US is not surprising. How many of the British (including Aust and NZ) crossover singers are? Two that I can think of. Charlotte Church and Paul Potts. Well, even the Seekers - with a very conservative fan base - sang "What Have They Done To The Rain". The fan base that she has seems, it seems to me to associate the songs someone sings with their beliefs. There are Irish rebel songs (Sinead O'Conner has sung them and other folk singers) that could help Hayley shed the "Bland and Boring" image she's aquired in some circles -- "Empress of the Banal", according to one critic, or songs like "Blown in the Wind". Perhaps the real compromise that she faces is that she must risk shedding some of the current fan base to move on and up? |
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Post by milewalker on Jan 11, 2009 6:13:26 GMT
Hello again Azstrid
Yes, Ms Swift is American.
The problem IMHO is that crossover itself isnt all that popular here. At times it appears that the genre begins and almost ends with Josh Groban. However, while the nationality of the artist is certainly a contributing factor, Sarah Brightman did manage it, and Enya (who seems just outside of your definitions) has done even better.
The issue of Hayley and America is merely a subset of this thread of course, but it does arise from time to time simply because she spent a great deal of time here (and her record company quite of lot of her money) trying to break this market. She achieved what one might politely call mixed success.
I would not have put your final point in those terms - however, lets just say I hope it doesnt come to that.....
Jon
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Post by Cherany on Jan 11, 2009 8:15:41 GMT
To the extent of my limited knowledge of Taylor (I have seen a couple of videos) she seems to write catchy songs about teen romance. There is nothing wrong with this, but because of what Taylor writes about she is able to make a connection with her peers that Hayley will never make writing a song like Let Me Lie, or contributing to Melancholy Interlude, regardless of how good she becomes at writing that type of music. It simply isnt personal enough to make that sort of connection. I do agree with this. At least with Let Me Lie, Hayley has pulled from her own personal experience to create lyrics. Without wishing to get into the details of her private life, it seems Hayley has been far too busy working to really acquire a lot of real-life experience in the way of love. I don't wish to start a debate regarding her love life, since the line is fine regarding what is our business & what is not, but that is what she has willingly indicated in interviews. She has sang songs which have more relatable lyrics, though not necessarily set to the right music to create big hits. What You Never Know comes to mind. I feel lyrics like that would do well in a US market, if only they were set to catchier music, something that would appeal to pop music stations. A couple years ago, my computer crashed & I lost tons of music purchased through iTunes. Someone online shared her Hayley collection with me (I asked her to share only what I'd already paid for), and when I listened to Across the Universe of Time, it was a completely different version than what I had. I was in the process of moving at the time & never got around to getting back in touch with the person who gave it to me to see where it came from, but it was an upbeat, dance remix of the song. It sounded like the catchy songs you hear in clubs, the ones that young girls get stuck in their heads & share with all their friends. (I have heard a very similar version, though not precisely the same, on HWI somewhere, but I'm sure I'd be looking for a day if I tried to find it again.) My girlfriend heard it & said, "I like THAT ONE!" She & I almost always disagree on music. She likes Top 40; I like classical crossover. Two years later, she's still asking me to play that song, whereas Hayley's other music, she seems to have only mildly grown used to. I mention this because I think it points out that there are two ways things can be done: 1) lyrics can be made more relatable to a younger crowd, or 2) music can be altered to fit pop charts. To keep from losing her current fan base, she could do as Celine Dion has done with a few songs: offer both the radio version & the ballad version on her CD. I love the remix of Across the Universe of Time for its mainstream appeal, but I really treasure the original for the crossover sound. I think most of her fans would embrace both. |
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Post by Cherany on Jan 11, 2009 8:59:47 GMT
Hope this is not off-topic...
Was "You Are Water" ever promoted for radio play? Because listening to it right now, it just feels like the type of song that could've done well on American pop charts. It's a terrific summer song w/ lyrics very relatable to love.
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Post by comet on Jan 11, 2009 14:13:24 GMT
A couple years ago, my computer crashed & I lost tons of music purchased through iTunes. Someone online shared her Hayley collection with me (I asked her to share only what I'd already paid for), and when I listened to Across the Universe of Time, it was a completely different version than what I had. I was in the process of moving at the time & never got around to getting back in touch with the person who gave it to me to see where it came from, but it was an upbeat, dance remix of the song. It sounded like the catchy songs you hear in clubs, the ones that young girls get stuck in their heads & share with all their friends. (I have heard a very similar version, though not precisely the same, on HWI somewhere, but I'm sure I'd be looking for a day if I tried to find it again.) My girlfriend heard it & said, "I like THAT ONE!" She & I almost always disagree on music. Hi Cherany, when I listened to Across the Universe of Time, it was a completely different version than what I had. This sounds like it is the James Last Version from the album "They call me Hansi" Discussed in the thread below : hwi.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Otheralbums&action=display&thread=2024 |
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Post by Cherany on Jan 11, 2009 15:03:41 GMT
This sounds like it is the James Last Version from the album "They call me Hansi" YES! Mine is a little different, I guess b/c it's a recorded version, not the live performance there. It seems to have more instruments & more background vocals (done by Hayley, like multiple Hayleys coming at you from different directions), as well as the sound of rain throughout. It's a little more clubbish/trance-like than the performance there. But it's definitely the same song. I think songs like that could really help get Hayley into mainstream charts. And like I said, artists have been known to put out a dance version of a song to get the radio play, then put both it & a slower, ballad version on their CD. |
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Post by comet on Jan 11, 2009 15:31:45 GMT
Surely she can sing songs with a little bit of bite without "compromising" any beliefs? Leoard Cohen is a very religious person but has sung about love and sex. HSJS is a much deeper and more powerful treatment of the whole subject of love? I have just come from another forum where one of the characters is a devoutly Christian woman who was having an hilariously risque interchange with this character about wheteher size really did matter (she argued it did). If Hayley said anything of the sort the people here would all have heart attacks. Hi Astrid, Welcome to the forum, I am amused at least that you view us as delicate and easily shocked, Most of us here were brought up with plenty of foul mouth music like Frank Zappa and the Sex Pistols ,Musicians No , Performers who used the shock value of bad language and inuendo, or direct foulness to flog their material in the market place, So we have heard most of that stuff before and maybe it was even fun at the time, To shock our parents and teachers with albums with "Black Sabbath" and the like on the covers.  But now we CHOOSE to listen to something like Hayley because of her voice more than the songs she chooses to sing. I also choose to listen to P J Harvey and Tori Amos, not exactly music or words for the refined or delicate of constitution, but with views of life from a different perspective and from different life experiences. I have been listening to Leonard Cohen since the 60s and have read much of his written material like Beautiful Loosers  Which often boggles the mind, but is highly amusing If anything, I believe Leonard has become Anti Religion throughout his life, By exploring these religions and finding them to be empty vessels, His last words at a very recent concert in Dublin were : At the risk of offending any Atheists , God Bless ye ! Also his song HalleuJah is being covered by hundreds of artists and wannabes in the last couple of years |
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Post by larryhauck on Jan 11, 2009 18:50:35 GMT
Hi Jon,
At the risk of offending my country music friends, I must say that the country music audience is one hundred and eighty degrees away from my taste in music. I think country is OK; but not nearly as difficult to succeed in due to the large U S audience. With few exceptions I think the talent of the artist and the quality of the songs and the music are far from equaling the performances of artists like Hayley and others.
Having said that I don't think their music is bad; but I just don't think it can be considered to be on the same level as crossover.
Regarding a comparison of SHE SHOULDA SAID NO to LET ME LIE I think it's an apples and oranges comparison. Taylor is a very attractive young lady but talent wise far from the abilities of the likes of Hayley. The song itself is just a rehash of countless other country songs. It doesn't take much talent to sing a sophomoric song as She Shouda. However I think it's still the individuals prerogative to like whatever type of music they choose. I'm certainly in the minority in the U S for my musical tastes and I don't have enough musical ability to dissect the two genres to prove my point from a theoretical point of view. So I say whatever makes you happy is great.
Be Well
Larry
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Yet according to this forum she is one of the most rigidly strict Christians in the history of the earth.
) and still keep her existing fan base more or less in line.
