Enlarging Hayley's Audience Potential

[postscript]

Following Richard's request that I was going off topic on 'The Telegraph - Hayley's happy with her image' topic and suggesting I transfered it to the Topic: 'Don't call her an opera singer!' I had a look at a variety of threads and Richard is right to say this subject is covered in several threads from different angles, all of which in my view could be fitted in the above succinct heading.

So I hope Richard is not unhappy about my responding to him by creating a new thread. In fact I go one stage further and suggest the Mods consider associating these similarly related threads with their specialist angles, so that the subject can be seen as a collective whole.

I started the post Richard wanted me to relocate, which now follows, by commenting that it was disheartening that 'The Telegraph dress debate' ran on WHI. Where I would have hoped it would run is the pages of The Daily Telegraph and the other broadsheets. As I mentioned previously my supposed scenario was that Hayley took an opportunity of creating a press debate which didn't flourish. My entirely personal assessment of Hayley is that she is a very shrewd cookie and she has the maturity and wiliness to play with the quality press in the way lesser celebs tease the tabloids. We could all be making a mountain out of a molehill and all that happened was that a reporter was looking for a story that wasn't there, as Richard and Roger have stated! She could have wanted to test the ground being under pressure from Decca. So, lets turn the subject into a more positive and somewhat wider discussion, such as how Hayley can expand her field of influence.

Why is a girl that musically speaking seems to have it all her own way still isn't making world headlines? What does she need to do (which might have been the way Decca put it) to enlarge public interest? With all she has going for her one might reasonably say she is doing the best she can and her particular musical pitch (in the market sense) doesn't have that number of overall takers anyway.

As I mentioned in an earlier post and probably under a different thread, I observed that with little Connie and Faryl Smith entering the scene (plus arguably Sophie) where is the quantity of music for these artistes to express themselves individually other than by their own arrangements of the same stuff?

As I have observed before, Hayley could sing the telephone directory and I would listen. The Caccini Ave Maria is a classic example. I don 't like it but I do like Hayley singing it and I do understand why she loves it. It is less well known, which helps her stand out but without looking at the score I guess that it is musically very challenging. It is that which appeals to her. Therefore, rather than looking at her dress sense and its relationship with her audience, what we should be looking at is what other genre can she visit where she can extend herself and her audience?

More church-orientated music is one way but that is both a specialised and small audience too, although over the Christmas period I have been amazed to learn how much John Rutter has established himself and how much of his work is not necessarily seasonal. Perhaps she could expand audience-awareness of his work?

We have considered opera, of which i have been supportive in the longer term but am now not so keen. First, I am not sure she wants to make that decision at this stage in her career let alone want to go that way at all. Hearing Kathryn Jenkins recently I have detected a change in her voice production which tells me she is going operatic. I don't like the change. I will discuss this in the River of Dreams thread which was intended to be my next post until I came across the debate here, when rifling through latest posts.

Country and western strikes me as not being too different from her existing style and does have a large audience as well as diverse flexibility of genre. Perhaps it is genre we should be debating in widening her audience appeal and not the way she presents herself? Although a country and western genre would probably have an influence on her dress sense?

Peter S.

[Richard]

Thanks Peter!

I've moved this thread from the Media board because it's now a new discussion not directly connected with the press.

Richard

[postscript]

Jan 4, 2009 18:01:22 GMT Richard said:

Thanks Peter!

I've moved this thread from the Media board because it's now a new discussion not directly connected with the press.

Richard

Okay, understand your reasons, I have also altered the inpost reference to refer to your changed location.
Peter S.

[Libby]

I don't think I'd want her to choose just one genre, because I really like her singing all the styles she's done. I especially like the Celtic/Irish ones, but I wouldn't want her to only do that, because then I'd miss the Maori songs, and the classical ones. I also really like songs like The Heart Worships, so I'd like her to keep singing songs like that too. If she sticks to just pop or classical/opera, the CW fans might lose interest. She can't afford to lose those fans, as far as her popularity in the U.S. is concerned.

If she ever sticks to just one thing, it should be her own songs, like the ones she's already written. I introduced Summer Rain, etc. to the Josh Groban forum, and people think they are pretty songs!

[larryhauck]

Hi Libby,
I'm wondering how much life the Celtic woman group has.
Usually groups as their's have a limited shelf live on them. Notice how the girls are splitting off for one reason or another. Hayley already is established as a single and I don't think it is necessary for her to have to be identified with any other group.
Having said that if it would help her I'm for it.

Larry

[Libby]

I'm not saying she should do only Celtic or join CW again. I was just wondering that if she stuck to only 1 style, such as only classical/opera or pop, the fans who like her because of CW might not be interested. Her CW fans obviously still love her though, so she probably wouldn't lose very many. Anyway, I don't think Hayley will do anything like that.

I think you're right about CW. The show is enjoyable, but it's frustrating when they all keep quitting. I'm going to the next CW concert in my area, and I am very disappointed to learn that Orla will not be there. It's bad enough that Meav is gone, and that I missed out on seeing Hayley when she was here. I like Celtic music, but sometimes I don't think they do enough Celtic. And that is a big reason why losing Meav and Orla is so disappointing. They were the most Celtic of them all. Chloe never sings anything I consider Celtic, at least not for solos. She is a very lovely singer, though, and I will probably give up on them completely if she ever leaves.

[Cherany]

Someone brought up the point on another thread that songs which young women can relate to their own lives generally do well. I definitely second this & wonder not just about the songs themselves, but the promotion of them.

We now know Hayley has a gift for songwriting, and I think as she becomes more involved in that process, her CDs will only get better. But of course, it takes more than just good music to do well in the industry. You simply can't impress people if they don't know you exist.

I remember on her concert DVD, in the documentary/interview portion, there was talk of how well Hayley's record company promoted her to young girls, particularly with the song "Who Painted the Moon Black?"

Being in the U.S., it's hard for me to know which songs are receiving promotion in other countries (none here), so perhaps some of you can fill me in on whether or not there have been any other songs promoted in the same way that Who Painted was?

I wonder if, because of the debt her record company has incurred trying to promote her, they have given up on costly promotion like this, yet still expect her to pull through with sales similar to Pure?

I ask this partly based on the topic covered on another thread, regarding her record company trying to tart up her image. (Sorry to involve another thread on this one... they really do overlap with my thoughts here, so I simply must, in order to be completely clear.) Dressing differently is a cheap idea, compared with promotion.

Is it possible her record company is simply looking for a cheap fix, unwilling to invest more? They obviously want & need to her to sell in large numbers, so it's a bit of a catch 22, yet it seems a possibility to me.

What do you all think?

[roger]

Hi Cherany,

Jan 7, 2009 11:55:14 GMT Cherany said:

...perhaps some of you can fill me in on whether or not there have been any other songs promoted in the same way that Who Painted was?

Well, not exactly. But 'Who Painted' was used primarily to promote Pure and not the song itself as it was never released as a single. A few other songs have been used (Pokarekare Ana being the most obvious) but, again, it was to promote Hayley generally or a particular album rather than the song.

I wonder if, because of the debt her record company has incurred trying to promote her, they have given up on costly promotion like this, yet still expect her to pull through with sales similar to Pure?

I am sure they haven't given up but the cost of all promo has to come out of her total budget for the five-album contract. It is perfectly normal for a debut album, by necessity, to receive the lion's share of that budget. The belief (perhaps "hope" is more appropriate) is that subsequent albums will do well because of the success of the first. Consequently, it is no surprise that later albums didn't receive the level of promotion that Pure did.

I ask this partly based on the topic covered on another thread, regarding her record company trying to tart up her image. (Sorry to involve another thread on this one... they really do overlap with my thoughts here, so I simply must, in order to be completely clear.) Dressing differently is a cheap idea, compared with promotion.

Is it possible her record company is simply looking for a cheap fix, unwilling to invest more? They obviously want & need to her to sell in large numbers, so it's a bit of a catch 22, yet it seems a possibility to me.

This is one of those comparitively rare occasions when the discussion in another thread could be very relevant here.

Yes, that may have been a consideration on the part of the record company when they made those demands. To be honest, I don't blame them for for making the suggestion because it is their job to promote her in any way they can and to do so as cheeply as possible. However, if Hayley said "no", as we believe she did, they should accept that and look for another way. Before we get to sidetracked on the image issue, we have to return once again to the fact that all promotion has to eventually be paid for not by Decca but by Hayley. To find relatively inexpensive ways to do this (if there are any) needs to be explored.

Roger

[dutchjoyce]

Hi.........
Very interesting to read, and think about how to enlarge.....
In an other thread , i read about what singer reminds you of Hayley, and there was a Singer Sharon den Adel mentioned.
She is a lead vocalist of a dutch Gothic/Rock band Within Temptation..............and look here what she did.....................
nl.youtube.com/watch?v=TxvpctgU_s8&feature=PlayList&p=7881ECC6732362DC&playnext=1&index=1

She recorded a song in a total different genre, she does normaly.Recording a song with a Top DJ, like Armin van Buuren or maybe Tiesto..........................................................
OOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

OOEEEEEEHHHH.........OOOOOEEEEhhhhhhh.......
........you're .......my.....summer....rain...........................
I think when a song like this, will be re -styled into a Trance version....Hayley's music will reach a VERY large audience.
I'm not saying she has to become a dance artist, but maybe for once she could lend her voice , to a dance production.....and let see what happens!! After seeing Hayley at Sheperds Bush, i know she is able to sing in every genre.

Greetz JOYCE

[Jillian]

In my opinion, what Hayley needs is to have something that no one else has got. By that, I mean a good collection of original material. I appreciate that Hayley has already written several originals -- but I always thought that (as beautiful as they were) they were written to sit comfortably around the other tracks, rather than be the main focus themselves. For example, Let Me Lie is an absolutely beautiful song, but I do feel that it was written more to blend with the Celtic theme rather than define the album itself.

Perhaps a new album defined by original tracks is just what Hayley needs? That way, if someone likes a particular song, they won't have x number of other classical singers to choose from/compare it to -- the only choice will be Hayley.

Of course, the songs would need to be strong -- which I'm sure with Hayley's ideas and voice and a bit of help from co-writers would be achievable. As for genre, I think that Hayley remaining with the influences that have shaped her career so far would be best. Hayley needs to work on her strengths here.

However, if Decca is tightening their purse strings, I'm not sure if this idea would get off the ground as it strikes me as being rather more expensive.

Or perhaps (this is major speculation) the reason the 'best of album' was released now is because Decca hope to start Hayley on a new path? (Apologies if the motive behind ROD has been discussed a thousand times).

[Dave]

Jan 8, 2009 0:07:11 GMT Jillian said:

Perhaps a new album defined by original tracks is just what Hayley needs? That way, if someone likes a particular song, they won't have x number of other classical singers to choose from/compare it to -- the only choice will be Hayley.

Of course, the songs would need to be strong -- which I'm sure with Hayley's ideas and voice and a bit of help from co-writers would be achievable. As for genre, I think that Hayley remaining with the influences that have shaped her career so far would be best. Hayley needs to work on her strengths here...

Or perhaps (this is major speculation) the reason the 'best of album' was released now is because Decca hope to start Hayley on a new path? (Apologies if the motive behind ROD has been discussed a thousand times).

Hi Jillian, all good points in my opinion.

Hayley has already said herself that she is now ready to try different things.

New songs need not be original songs... there are plenty of "new for Hayley" songs around, most of the suitable ones are middle of the road, easy listening gentle ballads and some of them would suit Hayley very well.

Best of all in my opinion, of that type of song, would be some songs from Hayley's Japanese album... or her next Japanese album. Not the entire album re-released in the UK NZ and US but the best of them, remembering that Hayley had a considerable involvement in writing the English lyrics for them and so would attract additional income for her record company compared to normal covers, which might be attractive to them. Most of these songs, well known in Japan, would be totally new to Western listeners and that could be a real benefit... they would "feel like" brand new songs (of high quality) and might attract radio and press attention. It certainly worked in Japan... where her latest album sold considerably more copies than her latest albums in the UK, NZ and the US!

This approach (to include a few of Hayley's own songs too) would mean finally dropping the "classical" tag and aiming just for the pop charts but I feel the time has now come to do this at least in part i.e. to stop worrying about UK classical chart eligibility... though I would expect to see Hayley to continue to include songs of that general type on both her albums and in concerts.

That's more or less how i see things at the moment but of course, I have no more actual knowledge about the exact intentions of Hayley and her record company than any other member of this forum!

Cheers, Dave

[milewalker]

Hi Dave and all,

I agree subject to one other condition - the songs need to have a contemporary enough feel and content to have a wider appeal than the music she has sung to this point.

The Japanese album is interesting - my admittedly subjective impression is that much of it is still just a little too "sweet" sounding to be taken seriously in any major American market at the moment. Ironically, in some respects, Hayley may actually sing perhaps a bit too well. I am not saying that it is impossible for any of the songs to "hit" here, in fact an established artist might hit with one or more of them. However, IMHO no song on that album is a deal maker here based on its own strength.

One other point about Hayley and popularity in general..... She has less "audience potential" that she might for a variety of reasons in my opinoin, and her current music is only one of those reasons. I dont think that some skills required for wider fame come naturally to her. Her personality seems much better suited one on one or in small groups so that she is very much in her element having a career with the scope that she has within the UK. I have never met Hayley, but my impression is that she becomes distinctly uncomfortable with anything which requires her to draw what she feels to be undue attention to herself - and this personal attribute (call it look-at-meism) may be the missing factor. (Her entrance with Ansell at the Classical Brits may be a sign that she is aware of the problem)

What this boils down to is a general inability on her part to Get Noticed - a thing particularly obvious in the USA. It was a lot easier to stand out from the crowd on the basis of talent alone in NZ simply because the crowd isnt very big, and her NZ success was an important step towards her UK market profile. It is my fear that the American market may simply be so big and competitive that it takes more than talent to crack

Jon

[ironman]

Jan 8, 2009 2:31:05 GMT milewalker said:

What this boils down to is a general inability on her part to Get Noticed - a thing particularly obvious in the USA. It was a lot easier to stand out from the crowd on the basis of talent alone in NZ simply because the crowd isnt very big, and her NZ success was an important step towards her UK market profile. It is my fear that the American market may simply be so big and competitive that it takes more than talent to crack

Jon

To be big in america hayley would have to get a few DUIs a month and ride around in cars with no underwear on and have plent of pics to prove it. That doesnt seem to be her style which I really admire.

Thats one reason why I think I really liked Hayley when I first seen her, shes not the singers Im used to seeing on TV. Being pretty good looking may have made me like her too. i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

[Cherany]

Jan 7, 2009 12:31:47 GMT @roger said:

... we have to return once again to the fact that all promotion has to eventually be paid for not by Decca but by Hayley. To find relatively inexpensive ways to do this (if there are any) needs to be explored.

Yes, that makes sense. I didn't realize promotion is really paid for by Hayley. When someone gets a million dollar contract, for instance, I guess that means they have a million to promote & pay for all the things they need, and what is left is their actual pay?

[Cherany]

Jan 8, 2009 4:10:39 GMT ironman said:

To be big in america hayley would have to get a few DUIs a month and ride around in cars with no underwear on and have plent of pics to prove it. That doesnt seem to be her style which I really admire.

Please don't make me puke!

Unfortunately, that's the quickest, easiest way a lot female celebrities here see to fame. I think, too, of Jessica Simpson, who put out a couple of CDs that did fairly well, though not as well as she wanted them too. She wined in nearly every interview she did around that time about not being as successful as Britney. Then, she turned on the ditz routine, and boom, she was suddenly a huge success!

I know Hayley will never resort to those tactics, but I think girls like that give her record company awful ideas about how to propel her career.

Though fewer in number, there are singers in the U.S. who are very popular, who have not gone in that direction. Carrie Underwood comes to mind. I'm not personally a fan (just don't care for a lot of country music), but she's obviously done very well for herself without taking off her clothes or partying like a wild child.

One key difference between her & Hayley is, as someone put it, the look-at-meism factor. On one hand, it's refreshing that someone as talented as Hayley is humble, but on the other, I can see where it might be holding her back.