Would someone clarify vocal categories?

[Susan]

Hi... I hope that I am placing this message in the correct topic forum.

This relates to singers other than Hayley, as well as possibly to Hayley herself, so here goes... We have heard a great deal lately about two upcoming new vocalists, specifically Yulia Townsend (from NZ) and Katherine Jenkins (from Wales).

Now, I have two questions related to these two artists: (1) We have been told that Katherine Jenkins is a mezzo-soprano, whereas I believe that Hayley is categorised as a soprano? What exactly is the academic definition of a "mezzo-soprano" and does that mean that Katherine cannot hit as high a note as Hayley? I listened to some of the songs on Katherine's website, and it sounded to me as if she did hit some pretty high notes! What makes her a mezzo-soprano?

(2) Secondly, what about the singer Yulia Townsend? How do we define the way in which she sings? In other words, is she a soprano? Or, is she a mezzo-soprano (like Katherine)?

Thanks, in advance, to anyone who can clarify this. I am just wondering about the precise meaning of the terminology

[Dave]

Susan said:

Hi... I hope that I am placing this message in the correct topic forum.

This relates to singers other than Hayley, as well as possibly to Hayley herself, so here goes... We have heard a great deal lately about two upcoming new vocalists, specifically Yulia Townsend (from NZ) and Katherine Jenkins (from Wales).

Now, I have two questions related to these two artists: (1) We have been told that Katherine Jenkins is a mezzo-soprano, whereas I believe that Hayley is categorised as a soprano? What exactly is the academic definition of a "mezzo-soprano" and does that mean that Katherine cannot hit as high a note as Hayley? I listened to some of the songs on Katherine's website, and it sounded to me as if she did hit some pretty high notes! What makes her a mezzo-soprano?

(2) Secondly, what about the singer Yulia Townsend? How do we define the way in which she sings? In other words, is she a soprano? Or, is she a mezzo-soprano (like Katherine)?

Thanks, in advance, to anyone who can clarify this. I am just wondering about the precise meaning of the terminology

OK, I'll bite the bullet!

Soprano just defines female singers with the highest voices (like Hayley) . A few notes below them are the mezzo-sopranos like Katherine and Yulia and below them are altos (contraltos). Then you reach male tenors and so on down, to baritone and bass at the bottom of the range.

So assuming the singers all have the same range of notes, Hayley's lowest and highest notes will be 2 or 3 higher than Katherine's or Yulia's. Soprano just describes the vocal pitch, not the timbre or the quality, but some songs written with very high notes can only be sung properly by sopranos - unless the key is changed (lowered). Mezzo sopranos tend to have a slightly darker (fuller?) sound to their voice, I think.

A good example of the difference between mezzo-soprano and soprano occurs 8 minutes 25 seconds into the latest video of Hayley singing Pokarekare Ana, in the Prosieben video uploaded yesterday. Hayley starts to sing Pokarekare Ana on (I think) the note of middle C ("Po..." then she realises the banjo's too high - so she picks a higher key for the actual song. She eventually starts on F (I think), which is roughly the difference between mezzo and soprano. Katherine and Yulia might not have risked going up that high.

But I am not an expert! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

[gareth]

I have to agree with you, Dave. Hayley goes much higher than either Katherine or Yulia.

So, both Katherine and Yulia are mezzo's. Now, which of these will have the most impact?

Dare I say (of course, I am completely biased), Yulia's voice has so much emotional force, that that will probably make her a more successful international artist than Katherine.

And - (I'm not making any apologies for that) - I think the emotional force in Yulia's voice is unmatched by ANY singer I know - that includes Hayley

Dave said:

OK, I'll bite the bullet!

Soprano just defines female singers with the highest voices (like Hayley) . A few notes below them are the mezzo-sopranos like Katherine and Yulia and below them are altos (contraltos). Then you reach male tenors and so on down, to baritone and bass at the bottom of the range.

So assuming the singers all have the same range of notes, Hayley's lowest and highest notes will be 2 or 3 higher than Katherine's or Yulia's. Soprano just describes the vocal pitch, not the timbre or the quality, but some songs written with very high notes can only be sung properly by sopranos - unless the key is changed (lowered). Mezzo sopranos tend to have a slightly darker (fuller?) sound to their voice, I think.

A good example of the difference between mezzo-soprano and soprano occurs 8 minutes 25 seconds into the latest video of Hayley singing Pokarekare Ana, in the Prosieben video uploaded yesterday. Hayley starts to sing Pokarekare Ana on (I think) the note of middle C ("Po..." then she realises the banjo's too high - so she picks a higher key for the actual song. She eventually starts on F (I think), which is roughly the difference between mezzo and soprano. Katherine and Yulia might not have risked going up that high.

But I am not an expert! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

[Dave]

Hmmm... I kind of agree Gerrit, about the emotional thing - but it's not only emotion in the singer's voice that can generate emotion in the listener is it? There's the actual sound of her voice (Hayley!) and her singing style to consider, too. Other things as well, no doubt.

Compared to Hayley, I think Yulia (whose singing I love), sometimes sounds a bit "breathy" but as to which of them are better, I suppose it's down to personal preference and how you balance the different aspects of "good". I place Hayley top, overall

Katherine is a lovely singer too, but what put me off her at first was that occasionally, she sounded slightly out of tune - more often than Hayley (who does slip up occasionally, but not by much!). But people who love the trained "operatic" voice will tend to prefer Katherine over Hayley and Yulia (personally I don't tend to go for trained operatic-style voices).

Charlotte Church at her best was good, too, but for various reasons I place her 4th on my "top classical popover" list.

By the way, a little bird tells me Katherine is about to crash into next Sunday's new UK pop chart with her 2nd album - probably top 40 - and of course) classical number 1 !

[gareth]

Well, I can concur with Dave that Yulia does sound more breathy than Hayley. I find it difficult to say which one is 'better'.

As to the albums though, I prefer "Into The West" ahead of "Pure". That' s simply because I prefer the overall range of songs on Yulia's album. There are a number of songs on "Pure" that (as far as I am concerned) might have been replaced by somewhat more 'classical fare'.

On the whole, I place my two current favourites on "Pure" (Hine e Hine and Benedictus) ahead of my favourites on "Into The West" - but only just and then I am talking about 5 songs there!

When we talk about Charlotte's appeal, it was the youthful character of her voice that appealed to people, not perfection in singing. That youthful voice also had emotional power and added substantially to her sales successes. However, technically, I think Hayley, Katherine and Yulia are superior, and I reckon Hayley is the best in that department.

Gerrit

Dave said:

Hmmm... I kind of agree Gerrit, about the emotional thing - but it's not only emotion in the singer's voice that can generate emotion in the listener is it? There's the actual sound of her voice (Hayley!) and her singing style to consider, too. Other things as well, no doubt.

Compared to Hayley, I think Yulia (whose singing I love), sometimes sounds a bit "breathy" but as to which of them are better, I suppose it's down to personal preference and how you balance the different aspects of "good". I place Hayley top, overall

Katherine is a lovely singer too, but what put me off her at first was that occasionally, she sounded slightly out of tune - more often than Hayley (who does slip up occasionally, but not by much!). But people who love the trained "operatic" voice will tend to prefer Katherine over Hayley and Yulia (personally I don't tend to go for trained operatic-style voices).

Charlotte Church at her best was good, too, but for various reasons I place her 4th on my "top classical popover" list.

By the way, a little bird tells me Katherine is about to crash into next Sunday's new UK pop chart with her 2nd album - probably top 40 - and of course) classical number 1 !

[Susan]

Hello, again Gerrit! Hi, Dave! A heartfelt THANK YOU to both of you for all your insightful contributions to this discussion. Thank you both, for explaining to me the differences between a soprano and a mezzo-soprano, as well as for all of your other observations. I must say that I am really enjoying this exchange, enormously.

I also find it difficult to say which vocalist I like better, Hayley or Yulia? Actually, it now occurs to me that this is a most "unfair" question. It is like saying, which dessert do you enjoy more, tiramisu or creme brulee? Fact of the matter is... I like them equally as well! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

GerritK said:

Well, I can concur with Dave that Yulia does sound more breathy than Hayley. I find it difficult to say which one is 'better'.

When we talk about Charlotte's appeal, it was the youthful character of her voice that appealed to people, not perfection in singing. That youthful voice also had emotional power and added substantially to her sales successes. However, technically, I think Hayley, Katherine and Yulia are superior, and I reckon Hayley is the best in that department.

As far as Charlotte is concerned, I never really cared for her too much. I always felt that when she hit the highest notes of her vocal range she squealed or screeched just a tad. In truth, I often commented that her voice "grated on my nerves," almost akin to fingernails skimming across a chalkboard. I think that all of the "hype" surrounding Charlotte was primarily due to the fact of her young age, and less due to the so-called "magnificence" of her voice.

With Hayley, it has always been entirely different... yes, she started out at an astonishingly young age (as did Charlotte), but the similarity stops there! Hayley's voice NEVER screeches (to my ears), and she even sounds much better than the "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifiva" Sarah Brightman when she sings selections from Phantom of the Opera! In fact... you want to talk about "breathy"? Most recently, Sarah Brightman has one of the more annoyingly BREATHY voices around. Just listen to Sarah's CD entitled Harem -- the sound of her sucking in her breath throughout every track is most distracting!

And, as long as we are discussing other sopranos and mezzo-sopranos... what do you folks think of the Norwegian vocalist Sissel?

I think that Sissel has a delightful voice, perhaps not as emotional as Yulia's, but warmer and less formal (and, less operatic-sounding) than Katherine's. In addition, Sissel seems nearly as pitch-perfect as Hayley. Perhaps her range is not quite as high as Hayley's, or maybe it is, I'm not sure. Her voice does NOT have the "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifark" sultry sound of Yulia's or Katherine's, though... so I imagine that Sissel is a soprano, and not a mezzo-soprano.

[Susan]

Hello, again! I hope that you don't mind my re-posting, but no one responded to my last inquiry, regarding the Norwegian soprano, Sissel.

Does anyone here enjoy listening to Sissel? Are you familiar with the sound of Sissel's elegant voice? What do you think of her?

If you have never heard Sissel, you might want to watch this Windows Media video (see link below). It is a video clip of the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize Concert, originally broadcast from Oslo, Norway. In this clip, Sissel sings together with Josh Groban, in a duet of The Prayer. Better than Charlotte, no?

www.olografix.org/krees/dfnet/multimedia4/video/Josh%20Groban%20-%20Sissel%20-%20The%20Prayer%28Nobel%20Peace%20Prize%20Concert%202002%29.wmv

If you want to save the above video to your hard drive, rather than to have it run as "streaming" -- you may download it by right-clicking on the link and selecting "Save Target As..." Downloading the file directly to your hard drive prior to viewing it (offline) on your computer will conserve the consumption of bandwidth on the web, or so I've been told.

[Dave]

Yes, I've heard Sissel before and I like her... there are many good crossover singers out there if you look around and she's certainly one of them.

I also like the odd "real" opera singer (not many though): Anna Netrebko is getting quite a name for herself, especially in Germany - and I may just buy her latest CD!

[Susan]

Dave,

Thank you so much for your reply. Especially, thank you for giving me the name of yet another vocal artist whose career and work I can explore.

I am always eager to hear about new singers, and very grateful to be introduced to names which I am unfamiliar with.

I have never heard of Anna Netrebko, but of course I don't claim to be any sort of "savante" about the opera world! I only know the names of just a *few* opera divas, but I am continually trying to expand my knowledge in this realm.

Until recently, one of my favorite operatic sopranos has been the quite famous Kiri Te Kanawa. What is it about Australia and/or New Zealand that this section of the globe seems to offer the world some of the greatest singers? Is it their climate?

Recently, I discovered an operatic soprano named Victoria de los Angeles. (I'm ashamed to say that I do not even know whether she is still alive or not... I say that because I never hear anything about any current live productions with her name attached.) I only discovered her name and her voice by listening to a few CDs. If you have not yet heard Ms. de los Angeles sing the Bachianas Brasileiras No. 5 (composed by Heitor Villa-Lobos), you do not know what you are missing!

She has a voice that is out-of-this-world... a voice which literally sends shivers running up and down my spine!

[gareth]

Hi Susan,

As far as I know Victoria de los Angeles is 'alive and kicking'

I am surprised that this thread is now covering Anna Netrebko .

She has been one of my favorites for a while now. Anna was scheduled to appear on the Sunday Night Classics programme in Germany in which Hayley performed Wuthering Heights.

Check:
www.hayley-westenra-international.net/hwi/sundaynightclassics.htm

However, due to familly circumstances she had to cancel at the last moment. Still, I have a few videos available of her on:
www.hayley-westenra-international.net/downloads.htm

Two other artists on that download page are Mario Frangoulis (who will be appearing with Hayley on her upcoming tout of the UK) and Nana Mouskouri, who performs a sensational version of Amazing Grace.

I hope you enjoy these!

Gerrit

[Natasha]

Lots of people wonder about that!! Dave did a good job at it - but just to clarify a little...lol

Most mezzos sing a little lower than sopranos but some can hit the same notes! It's not really the range that matters as much as the tone quality.

Mezzo's have darker voices - or more full....

About Charlotte Church I think there is no doubting her talent. I mean she was really the first one and she got the worst from the critics.

But I think even if she would have sounded awful she still would have made it because she has a lovely personality!

I think that after "Voice of an Angel" her sound was quite dark so she might have actually become a soprano but most insist she's still a soprano....

[mortyman]

Read more about Sissel Kyrkjebø ( Sissel ) on this new thread I have made:

hwi.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Othermusic&action=display&thread=1113005604

Another artist that we are very proud of here in Norway. A household name for many years

[Richard]

Hello Natasha, you've got me thinking again!

I won't comment on Charlotte Church because I've never met her, but I have seen and met Hayley four times so far, spread out over a period of eighteen months. I can tell that Hayley's voice is still developing naturally and is getting noticeably stronger, particularly at the lower end of her range, but I'm fairly certain she will always be a soprano.

I had the pleasure of seeing and meeting Katherine Jenkins when she appeared with Hayley at the London Palladium last year. Katherine's voice has a different tone and sounds slightly lower in pitch than Hayley's, so I would call Katherine a mezzo-soprano. They probably both have a similar range, with Hayley's voice being a little bit higher at both ends, but I'm only guessing because I'm not an expert.

Listening to your audio clips, I would say you and Crystal are both sopranos at the moment, but you are both very young so your voices could change as you get older. Keep on singing and watch this space, as they say! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

One final thought. As a listener, I don't think vocal category matters if I like what I hear!

Best Wishes to you and Crystal,

Richard

[nicola]

Hmm....

Hayley - Beautiful as her voice is, it all sounds the same to me. 'Pure' is one long big song. I don't think she'll ever be an opera singer, which is fine, but I don't think she has the range, especially in the lower notes. I don't think comparing her to the likes of Katherine Jenkins is fair, they are completely different. For the classical voice however, I really can not see how Hayley is said to be better. I don't know how to describe my problem with Hayley... I don't think I'm getting it across very well. What's worse I probably sound as if I don't like her... I love her

Yulia - Sounds wonderful, I haven't heard her yet.

Charlotte Church - Can't sing. What am I saying? No really, listen to her albums, her pitch and keys are all over the place and her vibrato is far too much to be dealing with. And her voice is not angelic, it's horrible. She sounds as if she is singing with excessive phlegm down her throat. Not trying to be harsh, just don't know how else to describe it..

Sarah Brightman - My favourite artist of all time Sorry you don't like her I won't cut down your opinion about her breathing or whatever. Every singer has their vocal habits, I just like Sarahs I really don't think Hayley sings the POTO songs better. Sarah ALWAYS makes me cry in 'Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again' and Hayleys version left me cold. It's supposed to be a sad song but Hayleys version had this happy beat going through it. I don't feel any emotion coming from Hayley whatsoever in her renditions of POTO songs. I like Sarah because of her variety in music. Whilst Hayleys albums all have the same kind of songs on it, Sarah chooses far more variety, which makes her albums much better to listen to. If I fancy a fast song when I am listening to Hayley I have to change cd over. If I want a fast song when listening to Sarah sing a slow one I can just skip some tracks.

Katherine Jenkins - I prefer her to Hayley, she sings with such emotion, range and beauty - I even forgive her for covering Sarah Brightmans 'Time To Say Goodbye'. She is a stunning performer all round.

Keedie - I love her. Of course, all singers have one thing that grates and she suffers from excessive vibrato. Apart from that she has a stunning voice and can actually sing anything she wants. She sings both pop and opera with extreme proffessionalism. Not many people have heard of her yet, but she will go far.

Sissel - I love Sissel, I only have one of her albums but I think it's the best one. It's not at all classical (oh yea, I have 'Titanic' soundtrack too where she was the solo vocalist throughout). I think it is called 'Good times' and my favourite song on that is 'Should It Matter'. She has a beautiful clear voice. I haven't heard her sing opera, I have a feeling she doesn't to it very well because her pop voice is so good, but then Keedie can do both, so I bet Sissel can.

Hayley - Soprano
Katherine Jenkins - Mezzo Soprano
Keedie - Soprano
Sarah Brightman - Soprano
Charlotte Church - Soprano
Sissel - Soprano

I know Renee Flemming is classed as a soprano, but after listening to her, does anyone else feel like she should be classed as mezzo-soprano?

[gareth]

nicola said:

Yulia - Sounds wonderful, I haven't heard her yet.

Hi Nicola, I don't know if you ever visited www.yulia-townsend-international.com/, but there are a few video clips in the clips section which give you some idea!

Also, via the Into The West discography page in the Diary section there, you can listen to excerpts from every song on her debut album.

Gerrit