Dame Kiri puts Hayley out in the cold - NZ Herald

[socalboy]

roger said:

stevemacdonald said:

Dame Kiri's distaste for popera is shared by all opera singers. She was just caught running her mouth about it. Forget the fellow-Kiwi betrayal angle. Forget the jealousy thing. It's not about that.

If Dame Kiri's comments were based on nothing more than her distaste for popera, why did she single out Hayley? The fact that she did, suggests that it is about fellow-Kiwi betrayal and jealousy.

postscript said:

I really don't think Kiri realised for a moment this would go round the world.

She has been in the business for 40+ years so she should have known.

Roger

I agree with Roger.

The more I think about this the less I’m inclined to let her off the hook. I can’t speak for New Zealand or the UK, but if a high profile artist in the States publicly called another artist a “fake” and predicted she’d be washed up in a couple of years, there would be a thermonuclear media war. You just don’t do it.

I also don’t buy that it was intended for publicity or that she was misquoted. If it were a PR stunt she wouldn’t be backtracking so awkwardly. And her “out of context” claims are so predictable and unconvincing they don’t merit a response. I think it was Kiri being Kiri, as her history would forecast.

As for the little sycophant, Lindsay Perigo, his comment that Hayley’s music is “The aesthetic AIDS of our time,” borders on the obscene. Sadly, this little stinkbomb of a human being is the face of a certain brand of modern opera fan. It’s increasingly obvious that these folks want to keep the rest of the world out, so that the three of them can have opera entirely to themselves.

[spiderman]

hi again.

i have to say that the "its for the publicity" idea suffers a little cos its not the first time that Kiri has gone after dsl hayley. which makes me believe its somewhat personal on some level.

the spiderman

[Dori]

stephany said:

Here's a very sensitive press release from SOLO-International.

Courageous Kiri Clobbers the Common Clods
SOLO-International Press Release
Sunday February 24, 2008

Opera star Kiri Te Kanawa should be made a double-dame for standing up for excellence in music, says SOLO Principal Lindsay Perigo.

“It’s not the first time Kiri has offended the Politically Correct and the mediocrity-mongers, which is an excellent thing in itself. It’s to be hoped she won’t back down and go on television and weep.”

Perigo is commenting on the brouhaha that has greeted Dame Kiri’s reference to birdseed soprano Haley Westenra as a “fake singer” who is “not in my world.”

“Kiri’s quite right. Hayley is a fake singer, and she’s most certainly not in Kiri’s world. Kiri has a voice; Hayley has a squeak. Kiri sings; Hayley whines, more or less on pitch. The fact that illiterate hordes can’t tell the difference, and actually prefer Hayley, is neither here nor there. Diamonds are rare; pebbles are everywhere. The ubiquitous preference for pebbles is the aesthetic AIDS of our time.

“One mediocrity-monger, unable to refute the obvious, has resorted to accusing Kiri of appalling rudeness to a fellow-New Zealander. If this be rudeness, let there be a symphony of it. Militant mediocrity has had everything its own way for a long time now; a little dose of ‘rude’ truth is long overdue.

“If personable young things like Hayley can prosper in the genre of homogenised bland that some folk confuse with ‘operatic,’ good luck to them. Let’s just not pretend that this has anything to with talent.

“Evidently Hayley is appearing tonight with the very worst singer in the world, the execrable and seemingly inescapable Dave Dobbyn. Any discerning punter who stumbles upon this excruciating combo by accident should count himself fortunate that the venue is the Villa Maria winery, where copious and strong libation will presumably be on hand,” Perigo concludes.

Stephany

Hello Stephany

Thanks for this article. It is a shocking account on the whole situation. How could someone be so negatively opinionated? To call Dave Dobbyn the worst singer in the world is atrocious, and to say Hayley has a squeek is just unbelievable. Her voice was deafeneing at the Villa Maria concert, and I just couldn't believe the power in her voice. How dare he call her fake?
Some of these writers need a reality check. Hayley is not a pebble - I have never heard a voice like her in my entire life. These people should be ashamed of themselves, especially Kiri, who brought this whole issue up for nothing.

Dori

[Dori]

Hello everyone!

One of my many letters that I have sent has been published. Take a look:

www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1501154&objectid=10494396&pnum=6

"Dori (Milford, Auckland)

Hayley Westenra has been on stage since she was able to talk. If you read her biography and autobiography you will see how hard she has worked to become the young woman she is today. She has had singing and performance training from one of New Zealand's top artists, Dame Malvina Major, so she has been trained professionally from a young age. Being a 'proper' singer is a strange definition. What makes a 'proper' singer? Is it the ability to please a crowd, or is it the gift of being a great performer, to both, the eyes and the ears? What ever it is, Hayley has every bit of it. I attended her In Tune with Nature concert, and the voice that she projected was phenomenal. The purity and existence of such a voice was astonishing. I have heard so many other popera artists, and not one of them has the pure voice that Westenra does. She is totally unique, and that is why we like her. Opera is not the only genre in the classical world, and it is certainly not 'the ultimate'. Westenra deserves every bit of attention she has gotten, and there is a reason for why she is New Zealand's top selling artist. We like listening to her voice, and classical cross-over, and that makes her a 'proper' singer."

Hope more gets published.

Dori

[Steve H]

Hi Folks,

I just listened to an article on the Radio 4 program 'Today' regarding Dame Kiri's comments, the interview was of Lesley Garrett and Rupert Christiansen of the Daily Telegraph, Lesley supporting Hayley and crossover and Rupert supporting Dame Kiri, the discussion was clearly won by Lesley, even the sports corespondent who followed commented " I think that was Lesley 1 - Rupert 0

Steve H

[Jeff]

Yes Steve, I heard that as well. (Anyone who missed it can hear the entertaining encounter on BBCiplayer about 2 hrs 23 min in) I've never had any time for stuffy opera critics. All I know is when I watched the 3 Tenors when their concert was repeated over Xmas, all 3 had microphones. If a microphone is good enough for Pavarotti, it should be good enough for anyone !

[postscript]

I did a quick flash through the last hundred posts to check no one has yet picked this up and seemingly they haven't.

I discovered this this morning.

1. He seems to be taking the question seriously on the basis of technical/interpretive observation rather than the slapping-down technique of Kiri.

2. If you refer to my post on my attendance at a Kiri concert you will note my comments on this. It was perfectly possible for Kiri to raise a technical debate but IT WAS NEVER necessary for Kiri to be pejorative about anyone.

3. On this link you have the option of comparing:
Renee Fleming--whom I rate top, but see below
then Hayley equal with Church, see below
Kiri
Callas.

My reasons.
1. None of these recordings are equitable technically:

• a long time scale over which the recordings were made
  
• technological developments over that period
  
• different ambiance and acoustics of the performance venue
  

2. There is then interpretation. This is a song about a young girl pleading with her father to allow her to marry. Surprisingly none of the mature artists give the really impassioned delivery which I recall from a local artist in my teens and which made a lasting impression upon me. With hinsight pershap she was OTT!.

Arguably Hayley is the right age in reality, especially for today and her simplicity of delivery is arguably more correct. However at the period the opera was written daughters were expected to be obedient to their father's will until married off and could well be dependent upon their father well into the late twenties.

3. In this recording Hayley does sound a little 'reedy' but I believe this has everything to do with the recording quality which distorts her otherwise quieter and arguably more meaningful interpretation, where she makes the words more important than, I perceive in the other singers, where the music and 'acting' contributes to the interpretation.

4. I place Hayley and Charlotte on a par because I think Church was that much younger than Hayley when her version was recorded and I respect her attempt at singing a song that is arguably over her age-range. I am also being realistic in comparing what we actually hear (I haven't yet played Hayley's CD recording (as in terms of immediate comparison)) making the proviso (knowing Hayley's voice for real) that her recoding is a particularly bad technical rendition.

How do others feel about this?

If we are going to accept there is room for a serious debate then I accept the challenge. I more or less said this in my report when I attended Kiri's Cadogan concert which was singularly meaningful because it was the same hall and same audience size (packed) as for Hayley. Arguably there were many there, perhaps half, who might well have heard Hayley, judging by the mixed styles of dress of that audience. In that small group of people waiting at the Stage Door I was involved with several people who had heard Hayley and thought favourably of her. In short this was an audience that appreciates BOTH artists and recognises AND ACCEPTS the reality of the difference in their delivery styles.

As this debate may possibly move into a seriously informed debate of style of presentaiton, youth/experience of artistses which could be of serious interest to many, it becomes increasingly clear that there was NEVER an excuse for Kirir to insult ANYONE.

What Kirii did was to reduce a Damehood of the British Empire to the level of a Pantomime Dame in the era of Fred Karno's Circus and that is totally unforgivebable.

By the way, I was surprised to place Callas last. I think this was both a bad recording (way before modern electronics) and possibly an offnight for her. It does not represent the Callas I remember.
Peter S.

[Martin]

So the Hayley bashing (and counter support) bandwagon rolls on. On reflection we shouldn't be concerned with the former. We all know how ludicrous it is and, if anything, it has galvanised Hayley's support even more.

All stars get unjust criticism from time to time - it goes with the territory. What is so pleasing is the way that Hayley has not been tempted to retaliate which in my opinion makes this pantomime Dame's comments even more foolish.

Let's now move on as the recent concerts in NZ and the forthcoming concerts here in the UK have, and will dispel any thoughts other than Hayley continues to be up with the best of them.

Martin

ps Always remember that there is no such thing as bad publicity. Unfortunately, in this instance it also applies to the Dame.

[Mr Yang]

I remember that Andrea Bocelli was introduced by Luiano Pavarotti. Of course Pavarotti is more famous. He is the king of opera, traditional opera. However, he attached great importance to crossover. He's done some songs in a more crossoever way such as Caruso, Volare, etc. I think he saw the future of traditional opera and classical music, that is crossover, or popera. Pure opera and classical will certainly be loved by people and will definitely exist. But this is a new approach to the area of classical music. As we all know crossover is still being classified in the genre of classical. So, the record industry see this as reviving the classical music, not terminating. Opera is certainly being sold, though the amount can't be compared with crossover. But this is a problem of Toyota and Mercedes. Sure most people have Toyota but there are some people buy Benz, who consider it as more prestige, which is really true. But even Benz changes. Today's Benz looks more fashionable and young and athletic. And Toyota has more cars looking stylish and luxurious. Innovation vitalizes everything. So it is with music.

[gerrit]

roger said:

stevemacdonald said:

Dame Kiri's distaste for popera is shared by all opera singers. She was just caught running her mouth about it. Forget the fellow-Kiwi betrayal angle. Forget the jealousy thing. It's not about that.

If Dame Kiri's comments were based on nothing more than her distaste for popera, why did she single out Hayley? The fact that she did, suggests that it is about fellow-Kiwi betrayal and jealousy.

postscript said:

I really don't think Kiri realised for a moment this would go round the world.

She has been in the business for 40+ years so she should have known.

Roger

I have quoted Roger's message because I have an observation to make about the very same paragraph he has quoted from Steve's message.

I think that the observation that Kiri's distaste for popera is shared by ALL opera singers is a generalisation and as such not true.

Take the Three Tenors:
Luciano Pavarotti has performed many duets with people from the pop world in his many Luciano and Friends concert.
José Carreras is organising a Leukaemia benefit concert in Leipzig annually, in which many performances can be classified as popera or crossover.
Placido Domingo has now for the second time invited Katherine Jenkins as guest performer at one of his concerts (on March 1 in Hong Kong). Now I think Placido Domingo is a proper opera singer, while Katherine is a crossover singer.
Bryn Terfel has organised his Feanol Festival for quite some time now, and much of what is performed there can only be termed as crossover.

Anna Netrebko was involved in what ZDF (German TV) called an Opera Gala, but which was more properly termed a Popera Gala in August last year. ( I thought I had to mention at least one female opera singer here - even if fans of Renée Fleming have accused her of dumbing down opera - and even if Anna herself has been known to be rather snobbish towards Katherine Jenkins.)

The reason why I mention this is that I agree with those who don't think that Kiri is targetting crossover/popera, but just her fellow New Zealander Hayley Westenra.

------------------

As to Rupert Christiansen - seriously, who can take him serious? He has had his eardrums blown out by all these REAL opera singers bellowing in his ears using microphones. Consequently he has become tone-deaf i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

Gerrit

[Dave]

postscript said:

I did a quick flash through the last hundred posts to check no one has yet picked this up and seemingly they haven't.

I discovered this this morning.

Hi Peter,

I did (mine is the fourth post down ) but I didn't mention it here. I've been quietly active elsewhere, too.

Cheers, Dave

[Caitlin]

I knew I could count on my fellow Minnesotans to pick up on this! But I shall remain silent on this subject.

<3 Caitlin

[stevemacdonald]

gerrit said:

... I have quoted Roger's message because I have an observation to make about the very same paragraph he has quoted from Steve's message.

I think that the observation that Kiri's distaste for popera is shared by ALL opera singers is a generalisation and as such not true. ...

Well, at least all the ones that I know.

I think the best-known opera stars are more publicly tolerant of popera, but who knows what they really think? I've inferred from a few revealing moments that they, indeed, have little, if any, respect for popera as a genre all by itself.

The late, great Pavarotti is a perfect example. He gladly shared the spotlight with rock stars and pop divas who were true to their musical genres during his post-prime years. However, he tellingly snubbed both Russell Watson and Charlotte Church at Hyde Park back in 2000 (?).

Domingo has sung with many a pop star too, but he has never once gone to bat for popera singers in terms of ringing endorsements the way he routinely does for his opera colleagues. His approval of popera remains suspect to me, even if he, too, in his later career deigns to perform with Jenkins.

Jose Carerras, interestingly, sang with Kiri Te Kanawa on the big West Side Story album of 1984. I don't see him giving Hayley's subsequent effort any boost, perhaps because many critics seem to like her and Grigolo's take on it better?

The point is, opera singers are a proud (and loud) bunch who close ranks when it serves their professional cred -- which is during their most productive years -- and occasionally give faint praise to popera stars when the opportunity serves them.

There may be an exception or two to my generalization, but years of reading opera boards have led me to think otherwise.

[postscript]

dave said:

postscript said:

I did a quick flash through the last hundred posts to check no one has yet picked this up and seemingly they haven't.

I discovered this this morning.

Hi Peter,

I did (mine is the fourth post down ) but I didn't mention it here. I've been quietly active elsewhere, too.

Cheers, Dave

Hi Dave, How funny. I had seen that post and had thought it was you. It was the fact you had not reported it here that made me think it was a coincidence of name!

Cheers.
Peter S.

[Gene]

Well, goodness gracious me. Apparently, this isn't going to stop.

Dave, does this mean that I won't offend anyone if I head back on over to the voting booth and put in another 50 votes for Hayley? i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif
Gene