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Post by frenchie on Feb 23, 2015 0:06:32 GMT
I think I've brought up my theories on why KJ could not succeed in the US. It's not just because she's not American. There are lots of artists that are popular in the US who aren't American... of course most of the ones I'm thinking of are in pop, rock, or country, so it's not very hard for non-Americans in popular genres to succeed. In Katherine's genre, it is. Sarah Brightman was successful because firstly, she was already well-known for her broadway roles. But also, back then, she brought something new and fresh. The classical/opera she offered was not just the stale, sung-to-death arias. She made everything unique and poppy, and her being a diva probably helped a lot. Katherine Jenkins is nowhere near the show-woman that Sarah is. Her voice is not unique. Her voice always sounds a little dull to me. She did become a tiny bit famous with the DWTS fans for a while, but nobody's mentioned her since. One thing that Hayley has going for her (as far as I know) that KJ doesn't is her style and voice are much less operatic, and she sings and writes songs that are more on the pop side. Sure, KJ may have tried singing pop songs, but... let me guess, she uses a yawning opera voice to do so. Of course Hayley has never tried to sound truly operatic even in operatic arias, so she's already ahead of the game by not sounding truly opera. Sarah Brightman also had the sense to sing pop without singing it like an opera song. And THAT, friends, is the real difference! Jackie Evancho can get away with it a bit because she was more of a phenomenon being so young, and of course, an American talent show star. Amen!!  I have been tired of reading for the last few years from people that Hayley is not successful in the USA because she is not American. Libby (and susieverity) you said everything I was wanting to say. It is not at all the nationality of the artist, but the material and the personality of the artist/band whether or not they make it here in the USA. Not to mention how hard they are willing to get themselves out there and noticed by the people. The bottom line is that here in the USA we are not big classical music fans. Yes, there is a small group who enjoys the classical genre, but Hayley is part of THAT niche genre. This means she has to be unique, and appeal to the masses by what we like which is pop and rock. And I think that is what Hayley is cooking up for us in the way of folk-rock with some light pop tunes and 1-3 more classical sounding songs. Her personality is wonderful and live concerts are perfect, so she has this part in the bag! Now the other issue we have is how much promo Hayley is willing to do to get this upcoming album out there and to the masses in the USA. That's a question we have to wait and see! Future concert tour here sounds promising in having some decent promo, but we shall see! As far as covers are concern, I think covers are fine IF they are unknown songs from artists we do not know about here in the USA, and the cover brings something new to the song. Alicia |
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Post by Libby on Feb 23, 2015 7:07:17 GMT
Well-known covers like BOTW or YRMU (sorry comet) are good, but I agree, not too many well-knowns. I Know You by Heart is not that well-known. Josh Groban's cover songs are not extremely well-known, either. Hollow Talk is a unique song by a Danish rock song, so totally new to his American fan-base, but still much enjoyed by all. It has a rock vibe, but it works well with the crossover genre. I listened to Josh's version of My December (originally by Linkin Park), and I was just thinking, Josh needs to sing more soft rock like this! It suits him wonderfully. I didn't recognize Straight to You, and I absolutely love it. It's a bit of swoon-inducing song.  His cover of YRMU is probably attributed to him far more than the originals. I can't even think of a cover song on his first album... Cinema Paradiso, and You're Still You, or at least the tune is a borrowed one. I'm not sure Hayley's going into any form of rock, but pop and folk, sure. Though, her work with the guy from Sweden could prove me wrong. And remember that selfie from LA with that black jacket on? I don't know...  |
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Post by martindn on Feb 23, 2015 10:22:04 GMT
Yes, that is actually an important issue if you are aiming for a big hit, rather than just making the music you enjoy (it is not impossible to do both of course). You first need to identify your target audience - who are you trying to sell your music to? How wide should your appeal be, realising that you can never please everybody.
Hayley has never been known for being overly commercially oriented - when she had artistic control. Is that about to change I wonder?
Martin D
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Post by Simba on Feb 23, 2015 19:59:04 GMT
I'm not sure if it's good or bad, but interesting to see that Hayley, a classical singer by default might have to branch out to become more appealing to wider audiences and stray away from classical even for classical songs themselves, but we see Lady Gaga who is known for her gimmicks and freaky (no offence to fans) performances, now performing the sound of music at the Oscars, in the most elegant manner, and in a semi-classical/lyrical technique that even Hayley is not opting to sing in these days, she just wants to belt it out. The music industry really doesn't let singers do what they want, to a point when they themselves are confused about what they really want.
Not denying the fact that I had goosebumps hearing Hayley sing in the ICC world cup live, it was still slightly strained, pitchy and with not so great phrasing. Now the last thing I wanted myself to say about a Hayley performance was that, Lady Gaga was better at her performance vocally. My friends who love cricket, who watched the opening ceremony, asked just one thing, "What happened to her voice?"
Surprises are always wonderful, I hope Hayley surprises me with her new album.
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Post by martindn on Feb 23, 2015 23:28:40 GMT
Believe you me at Cork in December last, and that was live, not distorted by anything other than the local sound system and the acoustics of the hall, she still had a voice. Not the same as it was when she was 15 granted, but still an wonderful singer and worth travelling to Ireland to hear. And those who heard her for the first time a few days later in Madison were just as blown away by all accounts as I was the first time I heard her back in 2004. Good singers, it seems to me, always sound better live than on record or TV. Bad singers sound worse live.
Martin D
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Post by Libby on Feb 24, 2015 7:36:07 GMT
Believe you me at Cork in December last, and that was live, not distorted by anything other than the local sound system and the acoustics of the hall, she still had a voice. Not the same as it was when she was 15 granted, but still an wonderful singer and worth travelling to Ireland to hear. And those who heard her for the first time a few days later in Madison were just as blown away by all accounts as I was the first time I heard her back in 2004. Good singers, it seems to me, always sound better live than on record or TV. Bad singers sound worse live. Martin D YES! I am one of those who saw her in Madison who was blown away. I even suspected (and was later proved right) that she was coming down with a cold. Yet, she sounded more amazing than I could have ever imagined. Now when I listen to the live videos I used to think sounded amazing no longer satisfy as much as they used to. The sound quality is starting to frustrate me, because I've heard Hayley live, without all the distortions. I even remember saying that in Amalia in particular, that she sounded AT LEAST as good, if not better, as the album recording! And, again, this is with her coming down with a cold! However, when I listened to the videos Nhat took the next night, her cold was starting to come through a bit, and it didn't sound quite the same as the night I was there. Her Wuthering Heights was not as well-controlled. Simba, I really took offense that you said "she just wants to belt it out". You make her sound like some show-off singer like the young girls with big voices that come on the talent shows. She is nothing of the sort. There have been times when I've worried a bit about her voice not being the same anymore, especially before Paradiso. However, after Madison's concert, never again. Occasionally she lets the emotion cause her to lose control a bit, and sometimes that affects how perfect her singing sounds. But in Madison she sounded emotional, yet still very well-controlled. In Christchurch in YRMU, I think the emotion from performing at home, especially with the earthquake anniversary close at hand (and just passed yesterday), may have contributed to whatever vocal imperfections you and your friend heard. If you remember Pie Jesu in 2011, YRMU was much better than how that turned out. If you'd heard her sing YRMU in Madison (or Cork), you would NOT be saying any of that about her. For a while I had started to place her lower on my list of singers that really impress me. I've been on a Sarah Brightman obsession for a while, and I was impressed with her as a whole package. But, after the concert, Hayley was safely at the very top of my list again. She blew me away that much. I don't know if I'll ever be satisfied with a youtube recording again after her concert. I've come to understand that this is one of the main reasons people who've seen her in concert are already anxious for her next concert. I am now one of those people!  Simba, maybe you don't like Hayley belting, but most of us think she sounds amazing doing it, and if her voice has matured so that she can, then she should use it however she sees fit. Especially if it allows her to branch out and sing songs that are less operatic and classical. If that's not what you like, then maybe you should start looking elsewhere. Stop being disappointed that she no longer sounds like her 15-21-year-old self. It's not going to happen. |
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Post by martindn on Feb 24, 2015 11:27:30 GMT
Well said Libby. Singers, and artists in general move on, and so do audiences. At least the good ones do, otherwise the are stuck for the rest of their lives performing the same old stuff to diminishing audiences. Yes, there are plenty that have made a career out of one good idea that they rehash again and again. But the best change and develop, and re-invent themselves from time to time. Hayley now looks and sounds very different to the way she was 10 years ago. And judging by what we've heard about her work on the new album (to get back on topic)she is about to re-invent herself again. The Japanese Songs albums, Paradiso and Hushabye were all completely different directions for Hayley. That's how to keep people interested, even if some don't like some of the stuff she has done.
So I am optimistic about the future, and the new album. And I look forward to the tour that will accompany it.
As for here "belting stuff out", well, I love to hear her sing with power, especially those thrilling high notes (which she usually avoids in live performances). Hayley can be subtle and gentle, she can also be immensely powerful It is all part of a singer's armoury. Something she can use to better convey the emotion in a song. She isn't one who is al about power and nothing else as some are; she is much better than that.
Martin D
Martin D
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Post by Simba on Feb 24, 2015 14:01:35 GMT
If you got offended by what I said then maybe you didn't quite understand me or where I was coming from. I never said I didn't like Hayley's belting, I really like it, especially when some notes demand power and she's able to give it, that's wonderful because she might not have been as powerful earlier. But let me tell you something, when was the last time you heard Hayley sing a high note without it being loud and belted out? Years ago...And NO, High notes do not equal Loud Belting. Being the wonderful soprano Hayley is, she needs to handle gentle high notes softly too. The live performances that you were referring to, I recall her singing May it be so loudly. You simply don't belt that song. I'm sure when I do hear Hayley live, I'll be stunned forever, but maybe because we have never heard her sing live when she was having better control. And for once, you can sing emotionally without any falter in vocals, Hayley would certainly know that best. And her YRMU always sounds the same, ever since that Operastar Korean performance. So the ICC world cup one is not an exception.
And trust me, I've left her 15-21 voice behind me now, and started embracing her new technique. I must admit I quite love it, and I absolutely love Hushabye for that. It's up there with Treasure and Prayer for me right now as my favourite albums of hers. See I don't complain about her performances in this album, I'd say flawless, perfect control. Does that mean it's her old voice? not at all, but still perfect. Brahm's lullaby and many other songs had some wonderful high notes, and I believe with many listens I like the new Hine e Hine better than the old. So much more emotion, yet flawless. Brilliant phrasing, no cutting short of words. So why do I not see this control in her live performances? And no, I can't say that I like Hayley's live renditions more than her studio, it used to be that. BUT, there's something we have to note here, her acoustic stripped down LIVE performances of "Brahm's Lullaby" and "Sleep on" for Classic fm, were still amazing, and at places better than the studio recording. So it's all too confusing....but I can't lie to myself, some of her recent big crowd live performances are not great by any means, especially the YRMU...It was like she didn't rehearse at all and hadn't sung that song in a long while.
But oh well, her latest recording, Parole Parole was really really amazing too....would love to hear her perform that live someday.
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Post by Libby on Feb 25, 2015 6:11:16 GMT
I agree with you about Hine. I really love her newer recording. It sounds better as a lullaby coming from the voice of a more mature, grown-up Hayley, rather than just a pure, beautiful voice of a 15-16 year-old. I will also say that the Cricket WC performance was not as good as her Madison performance of the song, but I still thought it was good. I shared it with my sister, and she enjoyed it. So, it couldn't be all that bad. I'm not going to keep arguing about whether she should belt or not; I and others have said we don't mind it and/or really love the way she sounds when she does. I don't get what you're saying about the high notes not being right. Everything in Madison sounded right to me. However, I can see how you would say her album recordings sound more "perfect". I think it's because when she's recording, she is much more careful to sound more polished an perfect. I also remember her saying that she uses a different technique in her singing when she sings live as opposed to recording an album. In the past I've struggled with her live recordings not sounding the same as the albums. But I've gotten over that a little bit. A weakness that I have is having too good a memory of the details of a song's sound, and then not being happy hearing a slight change in the sound I remember. I'd almost rather be someone who can't tell the difference. LOL |
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Post by Simba on Feb 25, 2015 17:47:20 GMT
Yeah, not only that you'd notice that the high notes "Kaatito poooori raaa" or something, is all soft, pure, infact more heavenly than the old voice. I'm relieved that I started seeing that lately, even Brahm's lullaby you'd notice, the high "lay thee dowwwwwn" and the last high note. The reason I keep commenting on this matter is that I know she can sing like this, but if it was live she'd rather end phrases abruptly and sing that note loudly. I remember you saying that she's going "Whitney Houston" on her songs these days referring to the words not phrased clearly (Sorry if I'm mistaken) And as to whether she should belt or not, that wasn't the argument at all, because I love it too, especially in places like BOTW "See how they shine" and ofcourse Amalia por amor. And lastly to sound perfect is something natural to Hayley, I'm sure, she does it effortlessly. Which is why I always prefer listening to her live versions more than studio, A particular performance comes to my mind "Songbird" at some Children in need concert, well, that is still the new style of singing, but perfect. Oh and not to mention, very emotional too. And I don't mind the differences from studio to live, I'm never picky on that, hehe. Hayley is pitch perfect, and also perfect pitch I recall, and she's always applauded for her diction too, Ennio Morricone mentioned these things specifically too I think, so to hear her go flat on notes and phrase her lines in a mediocre manner is disappointing. And I'd never want to get used to that, and say it's okay, so I can only wait. |
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Post by Libby on Feb 26, 2015 5:50:03 GMT
No, I never said anything about Whitney Houston.
As I've said, I've sort of gotten over that; it doesn't bother me quite as much anymore if a singer doesn't replicate the album recording exactly when they're live. As long as they still do a really good job and don't change it too drastically. Anyway, in Madison, Hayley didn't stray too far from the recording sound, so that's especially why it didn't bother me there.
As for BOTW, I've said that I wish she could record the song again with a better arrangement, because on the Japanese Hushabye, it starts out too soft, and so Hayley does not belt enough for my liking. Especially when I listened to it on the plane home, after just hearing her sing it the night before, it was just not the same! I really do think she'd do well to put it on her new album (minus Japan, since they already got it), but if she does, a slightly less gentle arrangement would be good, with a little bit more power put into the vocals. More like her live performances.
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Post by martindn on Feb 26, 2015 11:56:40 GMT
I think the idea behind Hayley's BOTW, and perhaps S & G's original too although it is less obvious, is that it starts off quietly and slowly builds to a powerful crescendo at the end. I love that way of singing it, it adds interest to the song and showcases Hayley's versatility.
BTW it is my Mum's funeral tomorrow, and my bothers and I have chosen Hayley's BOTW to be played at the end of the service in the crematorium.
Martin D
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Post by frenchie on Feb 26, 2015 13:13:44 GMT
I know this is off topic, but sorry for your lost Martin.  Hope the services are good tomorrow. Alicia |
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Post by Bamafan on Feb 26, 2015 13:55:49 GMT
I'm sorry for the loss of your mother, Martin. My thoughts are with you.
-Taylor
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Post by amptique on Feb 26, 2015 16:35:59 GMT
My thoughts and prayers will be with you tomorrow, Martin.
Bill
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His cover of YRMU is probably attributed to him far more than the originals. I can't even think of a cover song on his first album... Cinema Paradiso, and You're Still You, or at least the tune is a borrowed one.
