Perfect Pitch and Pitch Perfect

[Caitlin]

Hi everyone!

Not many people realize there is a difference between having perfect pitch and being pitch perfect. In the interview Stephany posted recently Hayley mentions that she was noticed to be pitch perfect, not that she had perfect pitch.

I thought I'd create this thread to clear up the difference, and for any futher discussions to be placed here.

Stephany was confused on the difference and so I replied

I can help clear up the "pitch perfect" and "perfect pitch" confusion.
Pitch perfect means you're on tune all the time (or mostly), and you rarely go flat or sharp when singing (or playing) a note.

Perfect pitch means you can hear a tone and tell straight away what note that tone is. Perfect pitch is really rare. I've only ever met one person who was born with the gift of perfect pitch and he is an outstanding Tenor Saxophonist.

One can train themselves to recognize notes fairly easily, and can boast they have perfect pitch, but perfect pitch isn't something you learn - it's something you're born with. For example, I am able to figure out notes in songs that I'm listening to by reference of other notes and by knowing what notes sound like, but I don't have perfect pitch.

Stephany then asked:

You mentionned the fact that "Perfect pitch" was rare, but what about "Pitch perfect" that Hayley seems to have?
And the interviewer seemed to think it's something you can loose when you grow up. Is that correct?

And I responded:

Pitch perfect isn't so rare because this can be taught. Really it's just paying attention to your voice as you sing. Most anyone can gain (or lose) being pitch perfect because it's paying attention (or not) to the sound that's coming out of you (or your instrument in some cases). However, being pitch perfect all the time is hard work, but hey- that's what practicing is for!

I hope this clears things up for everyone! Feel free to continue discussion here.

<3 Caite

[Stephany]

Thanks again for the answers, Caite.
I don't really know anything about music so it clearly helped!

I remember reading somewhere that after Hayley was told she was "pitch perfect", she was adviced to take violin lessons.
Was that to raise her musical awareness or simply to strengthen her "pitch perfect" gift ?

[Caitlin]

Probably both Stephany! The violin is an extremely hard instrument to keep in tune, and by learning the violin she was strengthening her ability to know when a note was in tune or not in tune. She was training her hear to recognize notes, but also learn basic technique musicians should have.

<3 Caite

[milewalker]

Hi Stephany

When Hayley sings Pokarekara Ana in the Russel Watson concert, the orchestra begins to play, and she gets her opening pitch from that. She can then sing acapella for a verse and then finish right on key when the orchestra begins to play again. This is an example of being pitch perfect - and is actually something most trained singers can do (it is certainly unusual for a six year old to have that level of ear and control - to that extent it really is an early sign of talent). If the opening pitch is an "A" for example, I can start there and stay right on key because I have learned the notes in relation to one another. This is often called "relative pitch" as well.

If I actually had perfect pitch on the other hand, I would not only know what the opening pitch was without being told, but in theory there would be no need to give me the opening note at all because I would already know exactly what an "A" sounds like.


Jon

[Dave]

Great thread Caite!

So, does this all mean that a singer must have perfect pitch in order to be able to start on the right note, a cappella, and without accompaniment or a preceding 'tuning' note from some instrument (or tuning fork )?

Regarding Hayley, I have seen and/or heard her several times when singing live in TV and radio studios hum or sing a note or two to herself, just before starting an impromptu unaccompanied song. Does this indicate perfect pitch or pitch perfect?

Cheers, Dave

[milewalker]

Hi Dave,

It doesnt mean she has perfect pitch. If she is singing completely acapella, (if there is no instrumental accompaniment at all at any time during the performance) it doesnt matter if the note she starts on is the "correct" one or not. This assumes of course that her relative pitch (which from the point of a listener is merely the ability to carry a tune accurately) is good, and she doesnt start the song so high or so low that it goes out of her range to sing it. If she starts a semi-tone high the only effect it would have would be to raise the key of the entire song slightly - and 99.99999 percent of her listeners would never know the difference.

It wouldnt even matter if there was vocal accompaniment like a duet, because the other singer presumably also has relative pitch and can find the "right" note to come in on relative to wherever Hayley is singing.

An orchestra cant react like that of course. So, if Hayley were to sing the opening verse of a song acapella without being given the leading note and the orchesta began to play in perfect tune with her, that might indicate perfect pitch.

Jon

[graemek]

Very interesting,
Thanks Everyone,
Graeme

[petertong]

Hi Caite,

I did some research on this awhile back and some folks that have studied this seem to think that we are all born with absolute perfect pitch and then the great majority lose this before the age of two. Folks that tend to preserve it are those that take up music at a very early age (but even the majority of those lose it). It is very rare here in NA though... I think the figure I read was one in 14000 people or somesuch.

Kids that have grown up speaking tonal languages (Mandarin Chinese is one example) are much more likely to have this as well... makes sense.

Does anyone know if Hayley has Absolute Perfect Pitch?

[Stephany]

petertong said:

Does anyone know if Hayley has Absolute Perfect Pitch?

Hi Peter,
In the interview, she mentionned being "Pitch Perfect" but didn't say anything about having "Perfect Pitch".
That leads me to another question for Caite and Jon (or anyone willing to answer!), can someone be "Pitch Perfect" AND "Perfect Pitch" ?
Thanks in advance
Stephany

[petertong]

stephany said:

petertong said:

Does anyone know if Hayley has Absolute Perfect Pitch?

Hi Peter,
In the interview, she mentionned being "Pitch Perfect" but didn't say anything about having "Perfect Pitch".
That leads me to another question for Caite and Jon (or anyone willing to answer!), can someone be "Pitch Perfect" AND "Perfect Pitch" ?
Thanks in advance
Stephany

Hi Stephany,

I'm no authority... but I would think so.

I went back and found the one of the links from back when I was looking into this...

www.musicianbrain.com/projects_absolute.html

There are some really nice articles here as well:

www.musicianbrain.com/publications.html

hope that helps...

Peter T.

PS: just imagine how few people would have absolute perfect pitch, be "pitch perfect", and have been given a voice like Hayleys...

[milewalker]

Hi Stephany,

Yes, you can have both - although some people with perfect pitch find it harder to learn. It is debateable how useful perfect pitch really is for a musician because it seems to complicate some things as well as helping others. Having said that, Mozart was reported to have perfect pitch.

Peter T - I think that what started all of this actually is that Hayley is trying to tell us that she does not have perfect pitch. For whatever reason she has begin to bring up this issue whenever the question has arisen in recent interviews. Being "pitch perfect" isnt rare at all - all it means is being able to carry a tune at a competent level. Having said this, I think it probably is unusual for someone to be so accurate at the age of six that a music teacher makes note of it.....but I dont not that any of this is really that notably "rare".

Jon

PS - just for clarity, "absoulte perfect pitch" is a redundancy, much like the American habit of calling an automatic teller at a bank an ATM machine - or using a hot water heater"..... the terms "absolute pitch" and "perfect pitch" mean the same thing.

[stevemacdonald]

There are many definitions of the word "pitch" and only a scant few of them have something to do with music and tone. It is my belief that Hayley has perfected her pitch in some other categories than sound. For instance:

1. she can perfectly pitch her energy to a receptive audience
2. she successfully pitched "Wuthering Heights" for inclusion on Pure
3. onstage she can pitch and spin with the best of 'em in "At the Ceili"
4. she conjures a perfectly pitch black moon with her somber WPTMB
5. she perfectly pitched the orchestra in favor of simpler instrumentation for several songs on Treasure

[petertong]

Hi Jon,

As far as I understand it people with absolute perfect pitch have pitch perfect memory. So once they have memorized a middle C (or than a few octaves for that matter)... they can identify it absolutely with no other outside reference, and reproduce it with their own voice (if they have a voice capable of doing it). As far as I know these folks are incredibly rare...

I don't know if Hayley as abs perfect pitch or not, but she is the only singer (perhaps I need to listen to more?) whom I can whistle to and have my whistle note resonate with her voice. I found that amazing... I guess it doesn't really matter. We are going to love her work no matter what!

best,
Peter T.

PS: I think I've seen a vid of Hayley starting out a song without her accompanying musicians, and then they join in and you realize she is exactly right on pitch... other times I've seen the pianist play a note first and she kind of looks over like she doesn't need it... I can't remember which videos these are however anymore

[grant]

Thank you Ciate and everyone for the explanations of "Pitch Perfect" and "Perfect Pitch". I have wondered about this ever since reading "The World At Her Feet" (which is where I first heard the expression) but no one I asked seemed able to provide an answer.

Why this has suddenly become an interview topic is a puzzle, maybe one of her interviewers actually read up on Hayley!

Whilst I understand being pitch perfect is not rare. It must be incredibly rare for a little girl of 6 to have it recognised in her.

Best wishes
Grant

[Dave]

Hi everyone,

As far as I am concerned this discussion is interesting... but academic.

One of the things that attracted me to Hayley's voice in the beginning was her ability consistently to sing in tune throughout a song; I often get irritated by singers who cannot or do not bother to do this.

Whether or not this is an innate ability Hayley has, or is due to careful preparation and concentration matters not to me. What matters is that she does it. Consistently.

I wish more singers would (or could) do this!

Cheers, Dave