Perfect Pitch and Pitch Perfect

[ailinn]

I´m a speech and language pathologist and as such know that female singers have to deal with the ever changing hormonal fluctuations that adult women go through.

Estrogen and progesterone fluctuating causes changes in the vocal chords and this would be extra noticable for a soprano or an operasinger since they push their voices more. Pregnancy (and menopause) also often deepens a voice, sometimes permanently so.

A soprano with an unusal "off note" might just have a "off day" in regards to her cycle. Sorry if this is TMI... And for my english, I´m not a native speaker.

[postscript]

Jan 7, 2012 8:01:10 GMT ailinn said:

I´m a speech and language pathologist and as such know that female singers have to deal with the ever changing hormonal fluctuations that adult women go through.

Estrogen and progesterone fluctuating causes changes in the vocal chords and this would be extra noticable for a soprano or an operasinger since they push their voices more. Pregnancy (and menopause) also often deepens a voice, sometimes permanently so.

A soprano with an unusal "off note" might just have a "off day" in regards to her cycle. Sorry if this is TMI... And for my english, I´m not a native speaker.

Hi Ailinn and everyone.

1. In my view you raise some interesting points that the less tutored of us (me in particular) would not have appreciated. Most, I think, are generally aware of voice change over age but even women nonprofessional singers might not have realised consciously (though probably subconsciously) the monthly cycle's ability to affect voice change. I found your post most informative and providing a further point to be borne in mind when presuming to criticise.

2. Do not worry about your English. Writing as one who has explored languages as a printer for technical reasons of typesetting but lacks the necessary linguistic skills (probably for the same reason I cannot sing in tune) your English is excellent. I admire many of our nonUK members for their linguistic skills and very much appreciate their collective contributions.

Peter S.

[ailinn]

Thank you Peter!

Indeed in the "olden days" female opera singer would have a few days off every month (sometimes called "grace days").

I´m sure a lot of female singers are aware of these fluctuations. I have collaborated with singing coaches around young female singers with hormonal issues (sometimes also with an endocrinologist).

[Dave]

Hi everyone,

I think that we are in danger of over-analyzing here, no singer on this earth (opera singers included) has ever been perfect on every note all of the time, and the reasons are many and varied. I've seen examples of top opera singers Anna Netrebko and Rolando Villazon (my current favourites) having an off-day, oh yes!

But most singers in the past haven't had every song of their live concerts posted "raw" on the internet, and every last note examined as we seem to be doing here with Hayley, something I am starting to feel a bit uncomfortable about. Fair criticism is OK (in the right place) but we do need to be careful not to overdo it.

The reason I resurrected the thread was just to mention the article that implied that Hayley has good relative pitch and not perfect pitch i.e that as Hayley put it "I can sing in tune". And boy, can she do that, far better than the vast majority of popular singers in the World today. But not even Hayley (or anyone) can get it exactly right for every note in every song at every concert.

This is what good singers need though, good relative pitch, not perfect pitch. Although sadly, listening to many of today's singers, it seems that you don't even need to have that basic skill, to succeed.

Cheers, Dave

[postscript]

Hi Dave and everyone.

I think your comment to be a very reasonable balance and perhaps, dare I suggest, that we all ought to pay heed to your observations. May I suggest 'in defence' that those posting in this vein have done so in an 'objective' mood but obviously, since it is about Hayley there is an inevitable subjective aspect. I would like to suggest that our mode is appreciation of the 'best' available and with 'clinical' intent rather than actually criticising Hayley (to use Richard's tautology ) and this derives from the fact we are used to receiving such high level performance from her that we set her as the golden standard and feel anything less is not her--even when it is!

Peter S.

[martindn]

Yes, Peter, and Dave, I tend to agree.

A remember a singer I used to admire (who has noe passed away, and shall be nameless) who at her best was absolutely sublime, but at her worst was awful. Hayley's consistency is remarkable. I'm sure there are many things that can affect the voice, and we know that Hayley takes a lot of care in things like her diet to make sure she is at her best for a concert. I suspect that not all singers do that. My guess is that Hayley as a wonderful ability to remember sounds, and can reproduce a sequence of notes that she has heard very accurately. When I listen to the way she sings her covers of other peoples songs, for example today I was lisrening to her covers of "The Deadwood Stahe" and "Spring, Spring Spring" from her "Friday Night is Music Night" appearance last year. Everything about those songs is absolutely spot on, and very faithful to the original well known recorded versions.

But you are right, we sometimes expect too much of Hayley. She has the most beautiful voice I have ever heard, the quality, accuracy and consistency of her singing is outstanding, and she works very hard to maintain her high standards. That's why she is my favourite singer. She may not achieve absolute perfection, but she comes closer to it than anyone else I know.

For many singers, inclluding some very successful ones, this sort of analysis would be laughable - they would be ripped to pieces...

Martin D

[tireman]

Jan 7, 2012 14:35:56 GMT Dave said:

I think that we are in danger of over-analyzing here, no singer on this earth (opera singers included) has ever been perfect on every note all of the time, and the reasons are many and varied. I've seen examples of top opera singers Anna Netrebko and Rolando Villazon (my current favourites) having an off-day, oh yes!

Hi Dave
Anna Netrebko is my favorite also. Not only can she sing fantastically she's also not too bad to look at.

Larry

[Simba]

For many singers, inclluding some very successful ones, this sort of analysis would be laughable - they would be ripped to pieces...

VERY well said Martin! It's quite amazing that of so many performances of hayley's we could pick out only VERY few, that were slightly off-tune, this is still an achievement I feel Ofcourse I was only pointing out that she went off-tune here and there recently, but not a problem at all, after all she is human too And martin I'd never blame/criticize an underreahearsed performance, so I'm only amazed how she was bold enough to still sing it! Most wouldn't dare to
And also very good point Martin that Hayley could have just imitated Teresa, because that one note was obviously off, so I'm sure Hayley didn't do it as a mistake, but even still she corrected it in the later performances, so that's quite amazing too

But you are right, we sometimes expect too much of Hayley. She has the most beautiful voice I have ever heard, the quality, accuracy and consistency of her singing is outstanding, and she works very hard to maintain her high standards. That's why she is my favourite singer. She may not achieve absolute perfection, but she comes closer to it than anyone else I know.

Exactly how I feel, and that's how we need to look at this realistically I believe

[Libby]

I'm sorry if I seemed too critical in my last post, but once I've heard her sing a song perfectly before, it's hard not to be disappointed if what I hear is a little less than perfect. Sometimes, it isn't the notes, more lately, it's been the timing. In her performance of Sonny in one of the Taiwan cities, I noticed this in particular. The "...voice haunts his dreams" part was way too fast. I can't remember which city it was. It wasn't the most recent posting, I think it was the first one. Anyway, I don't fault her for being imperfect once in a while. Maybe playing the piano live makes her more nervous. I don't blame her for that at all! But then, she also rushed the "it's me, Cathy" parts of WH in Jillian's recording, too, and she seemed more confident there.

I have a good memory, and that includes the way things sound, especially songs. So, that's why I notice differences like that right away. But anyone who knows Sonny very well would have noticed that part, too.

Sometimes I think I could be a judge on a talent show, because I always can tell what they're doing wrong technically. I could actually help them know what to work on, instead of insulting them. But that wouldn't be as exciting as telling them they sound "non-human", as certain dark-haired British judges tend to say. LOL

[mihizawi]

Haven't been posting here for a while, and now I've got e4xams, but I just read this thread, so let me reply to Libby's last post. Hopefully I get the time to be fully back soon, but I am very busy lately...

Concretely about the timing. I am not sure what recordings you are talking about, but I have noticed that in her concert performances she many times likes to sing a song differently than on the recordings, and that includes changing the tempo through the song, instead of singing in the steady tempo. When it's made on purpose, this freedom of changing the tempo is an expressive technique called "rubato" or "tempo rubato", and I have many times admired how Hayley has mastered this expressive technique in such a natural way (I think I notice that mastership in the last 4 or 5 years). A very good example of what I say is this performance of Danny Boy recorded by Drew, where Hayley uses both swings (changing the duration of a certain note, but without changing the tempo) and rubato. So, I am not sure if that rushing you talk about is really a mistake. On the other hand, I have certainly noticed few times when Hayley plays the piano and sings at the same time, she may have some difficulty in keeping the tempo, and one concrete performance of River was definately rushed to me.

Michal

[Libby]

Yes, I've noticed issues in River before, and that includes the same Taiwan concert as the Sonny one.

I think what I'm talking about is more of a phrasing thing (of words), not the speed of the song. The song is usually the same, it's just certain parts that she speeds up, and it can sound a bit off.

The timing issues I hear might not always be mistakes, exactly, but the Sonny one just did not sound right, not for the mood of the song. That part is slow. You go from saying "Still from the grave Mama's... Voicehauntshisdreams". That's how fast it was, almost making it sound like one word. I think the same amount of time passes, since she allows a space in between those 2 phrases. If she'd said it any faster, it would've been slurred. Sometimes changing the tempo of a song just doesn't sound quite right, changing the mood of the song. I'll have to find you that video. Sometimes when I listen back, it will sound better than I originally thought, but I still think the Taichung one was an improvement. I think the one I'm thinking of was in Tainan.
As for Wuthering Heights, saying the "it's me, Cathy" faster wasn't that bad, it just lessened her ability of being able to interpret, or act out, that part of the song quite as well. Cathy is supposed to be talking, and saying it extra fast, you lose some of the expression. It's still the right rhythm, just speeded up, and that doesn't always sound right. Not just because that's what I'm used to, it just changes the way a song affects you, too. Sounding rushed can also seem to say you're rushing through because you aren't really into what you're doing, or that you're nervous or self-concious. And I think perhaps Hayley might be self-concious when she plays the piano live. Or sings a song she hasn't done live before, or something.

I seem to remember Hayley singing Summerfly a little too fast sometimes, too, but one time I think it was partly the musicians that messed that up, and they had to start over. Her most recent performance of that song at King's Lynn was the best live version I've ever heard her do, because it was the right tempo. Now, if you were to slow Summerfly down a bit, it wouldn't sound too bad. But speeding it up an already upbeat song can sound a little bit crazy, turning it into a tongue-twister. And it already kind of is at the usual tempo.

Some songs are just better when they're done the right tempo

[martindn]

Hi Libby,

Yes, I remember the performance of "Sonny" you mention. I didn't think it sounded bad, and I think it was just Hayley changing things around a bit. I think that playing the piano does make things more difficult for her, and I remember seeing her rehearsing "River" over and over again at the sound check before her first ever live performance of that song. Mostly I couldn't hear anything wrong with it, but obviously Hayley wasn't satified.

Martin D

[Libby]

I never said it sounded bad. And I don't really agree that she was really trying that hard to change it up. That's the thing. It didn't sound like she was trying that hard. It basically sounds rushed. So, to me, it sounds more like a mistake than that she was really trying to change it. I don't think she was, I just think that's the way it ended up coming out. It's strange that some songs and performances, she sounds flawless, but others, she's not.

The only reason I worry about these things is because, for example, if it's a performance on US TV, I worry about how well she will impress the US audience. If she sounds less than perfect (than normal), I worry that the audience won't be that impressed. So, that's why when she first began to sing in WA DC this year, my first thought was "Oh no!". But she had a perfectly good excuse that time, and she did a wonderful job through the rest of it. Plus, with all the other less-than-perfect singers out there that Americans like, I probably shouldn't worry. But I just do.

[martindn]

Hi Libby,

Yes, I think you do worry too much. Even on a bad day, Hayley is far better than most other singers at their best. I actually don't rate her last two performances in WA DC as her best, at least not if you compare them to the tour with Bocelli (magnificent), or NZ, Taiwan or Kings Lynn, but they were still very good. I got the impression that she didn't feel comfortable at those WA performances, and somehow it came across in the music. I put it down to her not being able to control things and do things her way. But whatever happens, she still performs well and still has that fabulous voice.

Martin D

[Libby]

The most recent DC performance was a little bit emotional for her, singing right after Michelle Baugh's story, and she had visited the Vietnam Memorial wall with Michelle and her family, too. So, that was the reason that time. It could be nerves, too, since she hardly ever performs here anymore, and the last time she did before the DC concerts, she was supported by the other girls in CW. The time before, she was the supporting act for Il Divo. So, I think in general, US performances are kind of a big deal for her, as far as how nervous she might be. She hasn't done many of her own concerts here.