Festival of Remembrance - 13 November 2010

[Dave]

Nov 17, 2010 9:01:04 GMT Richard said:

Hello Dave!

I see there's a debate on YouTube whether a word in 'For The Fallen' is contemn or condemn. To my ears, Hayley definitely sings "condemn", and the Royal British Legion in Derbyshire also say "condemn" in the Exhortation as quoted on their website:

britishlegion-derbyshire.org.uk/About_the_Legion.htm
For the Fallen

Hi Richard,

I was hoping someone would come to the rescue on this, it usually happens if I'm patient! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif As I commented on Youtube, I am already leaning towards "condemn"and now with the British Legion link, I'm leaning so far that I'm having to prop myself up with an arm!

I will continue to contemnplate this matter but if no evidence to the contrary is forthcoming soon, I'll quietly change it to "condemn" on YT, the website and this thread.

Cheers, Dave

[grant]

Hello Dave and Richard

I don't wish to put a spanner in the works but the 'original' wording is contemn as can be seen HERE The Derbyshire Branch Secretary is currently unavailable but I will let you know what if anything I can find out

Best wishes
Grant

[Richard]

Hello Grant and Dave!

I've done some further research, and this article from the Australian Government seems to confirm that "condemn" is correct.

The Ode of Remembrance

The Ode for commemoration services is the famous fourth stanza from For the Fallen, a poem by the English poet and writer Laurence Binyon, which was first published in London's The Times newspaper on 21 September 1914.

This compelling verse, which became the Ode of Remembrance in common usage across the Commonwealth, has been used in association with commemoration services since 1921:

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

(Audience responds) We will remember them.

Did Binyon mean 'condemn' or 'contemn'?

Binyon wrote For the Fallen in the early days of WW1. By mid September 1914, less than seven weeks after the outbreak of war, the British Expeditionary Force in France had already suffered severe casualties. Long lists of the dead and wounded appeared in British newspapers. It was against this background that the poem was written.

When first published in The Times on 21 September 1914, the word 'condemn' was used. Some people suggested that the use of 'condemn' (meaning to strongly disapprove of, or to impose penalty on) in The Times was a typographical error and that 'contemn' (meaning to treat someone with contempt) was intended. However, in The Winnowing Fan, published a month or two later and for which Binyon would have had galley proofs on which to mark amendments, 'condemn' was again used.

Binyon was a highly educated man and very precise in his use of words. There is no doubt that had he intended 'contemn', then it would have been used.

Dr John Hatcher, who in 1955 published a biography of Binyon, does not refer to any doubt over condemn/contemn, despite devoting a solid chapter to For the Fallen.

The British Society of Authors, executors of the Binyon estate, says the word is definitely "condemn", while the British Museum, where Binyon worked, says its memorial stone also shows "condemn". Both expressed surprise when told there had been some debate about the matter in Australia. The condemn/contemn issue seems to be a distinctly Australian phenomenon. Inquiries with the British, Canadian and American Legions revealed that none had heard of the debate.

'Contemn' is not used in Binyon’s published anthologies and the two volume set, Collected Poems, regarded as the definitive version of Binyon’s poems, also uses 'condemn'. The RSL handbook shows 'condemn' and a representative of the Australian War Memorial said it always used 'condemn' in its ceremonies.

There would seem to be no grounds to argue otherwise: 'Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.'

Richard

[Dave]

Nov 17, 2010 14:47:12 GMT Richard said:

The condemn/contemn issue seems to be a distinctly Australian phenomenon. Inquiries with the British, Canadian and American Legions revealed that none had heard of the debate.

Hi Richard and Grant, thanks for your additional input.

But clearly, from Grant's link and one or two others that I've found, the debate is not purely an Australian phenomenon as stated above.

I'm still leaning towards condemn but in the end, as the words I quoted are for Hayley's performance, I will use what Hayley sang. If we haven't resolved it by the time of her next concerts, I (we) can look for an opportunity to ask her!

Cheers, Dave

[Richard]

From the Royal British Legion's main website:

www.britishlegion.org.uk/media/33921/the_exhortation.pdf

THE EXHORTATION

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them

Response: We will remember them.

[2 MINUTES SILENCE]

When you go home tell them of us and say -
For your tomorrow we gave our today

[/size][/quote]
Richard

[grant]

Hi Richard

I don't think that there is any doubt that 'condemn' is correct now in the exhortation. What is intriguing is what Lawrence Binyon wrote originally. I am not familiar with the word 'contemn' but, based on it's meaning, it's use would seem more appropriate.

Best wishes
Grant

[tracy]

HI.
Don't quite get when you guys say this is an Australian thing, here the Ode has always been as far as i know.


They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old;
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

(Audience responds) We will remember them.

Lest we forget.
(Audience responds) Lest we forget.


Ive never ever heard the term CONTEMN here and this ode is said at every services club in Australia every evening here in OZ usually around 6pm and most clubs have a light resembling a torch which you stand and face when the ODE is given.
I have to say I have never heard


When you go home tell them of us and say -
For your tomorrow we gave our today

BUT that sounds so nice, we should adopt that as well.

much love Tracy

[Richard]

Hello Tracy!

When you go home tell them of us and say -
For your tomorrow we gave our today

Those two lines are known as the Kohima Epitaph, as they are taken from the inscription on the Kohima 2nd Division Memorial in India. You can read all about the epitaph's history here:

www.burmastar.org.uk/epitaph.htm



Love,

Richard x

[tracy]

Thanks Richard,
I really like that Epitaph, It has a really special meaning I think.
much love Tracy

[Dave]

Hi everyone and many thanks to those who have contributed to the discussion about contemn/condemn.

I am now satisfied that Hayley would have sung "condemn" and as it also sounds like that (to me), I have altered the words where posted on Youtube, the HWI website and in this thread to "condemn".

Cheers, Dave

[Richard]

Hello folks!

The video has now had over 2,700 views on YouTube.

Richard

[sonata58]

I have frequented HWI as frequently as before. But I came across Hayley's performance on YouTube the other day. It was exquisite. (And I loved her outfit too). Thank you very much for posting it up.