General discussions on music

[mihizawi]

Hi everyone, I've decided to create this thread as I find myself drifting too often offtopic getting into theorical and wider musical discussions that don't really suit the threads where it starts. I thought such a general thread where we can discuss music itself would be a good point whenever the discussion goes too generic.

I was not sure, but if the moderators think this thread should go on the off-topic sub-board, please, feel free to move it.

Michal

[Dave]

Hi Michal,

Other Music is the right place for it but see the "Other Music" board description, on the main menu page.

Cheers, Dave

Edit 'Stones' reference deleted

[mihizawi]

Sir yes sir, Dave, lol, joking, joking...

Well, the discussions I refer to as me drifting off-topic usually start with Hayley or something closely related to her (the thread on Classical-Crossover.co.uk has been a frequent victim of my driftings, but there have been some Hayley threads too), and I tend to discus music rather from the classical side, so I guess from my side there's not too much danger of ending up on The Rolling Stones, xD. I think things like classical singing techinque, definition of Classical Crossover and voice classifications are related enough to Hayley to fit into the description of this board. My idea here was, rather than a thread to start new discussions, to make a place to continue the discussions that may have started somewhere else and have drifted too much off-topic.

And, well, for now, what I wanted is to reply to Chantelle's post, and I am afraid I will touch so many different aspects and points that, if you excuse me, I will not try to find a suitable existing thread (unless, of course, there's already one that generic, if so, please, let me know and I will try to find it).

Well, to start, I'll quote Chantelle's post here:

Jun 25, 2010 19:39:37 GMT chantelle said:

Hi Michal,
The voice classifications (from dramatic to coloratura) are not exclusive to opera, however they to tend to be reserved for singers whose careers center around classical music. (For example, Barbra Streisand is generally known as a mezzo-soprano, but the classification is never more specific than that.) And as Hayley's repertoire is... well, the strictly classical pieces are definitely in the minority! I'm not sure we need to concern ourselves with her classification. But if pressed, I would put Hayley firmly into the soubrette category. Each of the classifications requires great vocal stamina and ability, so coloraturas certainly aren't "lightweights" in comparison to dramatics! But a soubrette possesses the "sweetest" and generally the most youthful tone-- Susanna from "Le Nozze de Figaro" is a classic soubrette role, and I think Hayley's voice fits into this easy-on-the-ears, sweet-toned group.
As for Elin! Although I'm familiar with her name I'm less familiar with her voice or music so I'm going off a couple audio clips and her biography. You're right, Elin is an "ancient" music specialist (although not quite so ancient as all that-- her debut album focuses on Baroque repertoire) and considering that the voice classifications as we've been discussing them came into existence along with the development of "modern" opera (we bascially have Mozart to thank for that!) they don't necessarily apply to Baroque singing, which was an entirely different discipline altogether. Elin has the unique "boy soprano" (bad terminology, but it gets the point across) type of voice that Camilla Kerslake could have given several years of intensive and dedicated training... Again, one of the best ways to judge a classical singer's voice is to look at their resume, and Elin's opera / oratorio work includes roles mostly on the lighter, but not necessarily coloratura, end of the scale. Roles such as Pamina (The Magic Flute), Micaela (Carmen), and Despina (Cosi fan tutte) can be and have been performed by able-voiced sopranos of all classifications except the very heaviest! However, Elin seems to prefer pre-Mozart composers such as Handel and Purcell, as her rather unique voice conforms to the sound that composers seemed to prefer "back in the day." Just listening to her, I'd put her in the light lyric category. I actually think Elin has more "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifepth" to her voice than Hayley, but that's probably just because Elin is several years older! Fact of life-- the voice becomes richer as the singer becomes older. (In this case of "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifepth" and "richness" I'm referring to the layers of harmonic overtones than can be heard in the voice. Hayley's voice is fairly shallow harmonically, while Elin's voice seems to have more lower harmonic tones supporting those ridiculously high notes!)

(General Music Rambling- Feel Free to Skip This Part!)
Please bear in mind-- the whole concept of the operatic voice, and to a slightly lesser extent the classical voice, revolves around training. I don't remember whose publicity blurb made this claim a while back, but I had to laugh because the singer claimed to have a "naturally occuring operatic voice." Sorry, but Luciano Pavarotti didn't just wake up one morning and decide to sing like Pavarotti! It's a discipline and an acquired style just as much as Whitney Houston's melissma or a rock star's "screaming" or LeAnn Rimes's belting. Yes, some people are gifted with larger and louder voices than others, but in its raw and untrained form, the voice is just that. Loud.
A young child trying to imitate her favorite pop star's scoops and slides will sound affected and unnatural because she is intentionally mimicking a style, and a young person trying to "sing opera" purely on the basis of mimickry will sound just as affected and forced. It proves that the operatic style is one that has to be intentionally put on, a costume to be donned, rather than something that happens naturally.

Usually a lot is made of the fact that "classical / operatic" singing is the "healthiest" way in which to use the voice, and so an argument could be made that it is the most naturally correct way to use the voice. But first of all, just because something is healthy doesn't mean our body automatically does it that way! There would be no need for voice teachers if that were the case! Secondly, I'm not sure that the "healthy" way of singing actually conforms to the "operatic / classical" style (which really should be two seperate styles, with several sub-styles, as I've repeatedly pointed out due to difference in repertoire). It just seems that way because the only time you really hear about "healthy singing" is from classical singers and teachers! I think the closest thing to a naturally occuring voice will be found in a good choral singer-- the singer is using correct technique in all respects but without the demands of putting on a solo performance or projecting their lone voice over an orchestra and is thus using their voice correctly and allowing their natural voice (which may or may not be a thing of beauty- but it doesn't matter in a group!) to sound without any added strain of "style."

Also. A young person with a fundamental gift for singing and an interest in classical / operatic music has a certain amount of flexibility as to what kind of voice they want to become, especially those of us not blessed with a particularly large, loud, deep, or high instrument to start out with. A young average "lyric" can learn the higher, more flexible coloratura roles-- certainly in terms of oratorio if not opera (it's much easier to sustain a few solos in The Messiah than it is to sing an entire Handel opera!) OR she could develop the lower, deeper part of her voice in hopes of singing, if not Wagner, then at least Verdi someday. The different repertoires that a singer focuses on can give them an entirely different sound. Personally, I love singing German and French repertoire, which probably robs my voice of some of the flexibility it would have if I focused on Italian repertoire. The old saying, "use it or lose it," holds true for singing as much as anything else. A singer is constantly battling to maintain their top, lower, and middle registers all at the same time. Those "sweet spots" I was talking about can change over the course of time-- your vocal chords are like muscles in that they can be retrained and their strengths and weaknesses can be refocused. I've developed an abnormally low range for a soprano because I wanted to sing jazz. A bass-baritone friend of mine loves singing musical theatre, so he has maintained an incredibly high "belter" range, stretching up into notes tenors would be jealous of!
It's all in the training. How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice.

And finally, as if this weren't all confusing enough...! Voices change as they get older, too. (See: Elin vs. Hayley, above) The human voice isn't really settled in its type until about 30 years old (not a magic number by any means, but a good average number) which is why you don't see many singers in their 20s in lead roles at the Met! They are still learning and still training and still developing their voice. Women go through another drastic voice change at 40, which is why a soubrette/lyric who has only been singing Susanna until her 40s may suddenly be able to sing the heavier role of The Countess, because the voice has matured and deepened!
(End of Rambling)

Regarding Joanna and Nessun Dorma! No, a tenor aria generally doesn't do a soprano any favors... But Joanna seems to acquit herself very well indeed here! However, I definitely agree wtih Nicola and hope that this is the end of the "usual" crossover repertoire that we'll see from Joanna. On the bright side, her website refers to Nessun Dorma as a "special" recording, so maybe it was made exclusively for this video and won't be appearing on the album? The recording quality doesn't sound quite as polished as the samples of "You'll Never Walk Alone" and "The Prayer" that we've heard. In fact, I'd almost bet you that the accompaniment is a karaoke track. My money says this one won't be on the album!

Just to give Joanna her due on this thread...! haha I will say that even though the song has been done to death, her arrangement of The Prayer is fresh and enjoyable. I love the duet-with-self harmonies during the bridge of the song.

Nicola, I read your interview-- well done, as usual! Joanna is incredibly likeable, and her personality really shines through. Hopefully some of her TV appearances will be available to watch here in the US, because I'm sure she's an absolute firecracker to see "in person."

And there's also your previous post that has some very interesting statements about Hayley, but I won't quote it, it's gonna be a kilometric post anyway. There are so many thoughts that passed through my mind when reading your posts... Well, I'll try to go one by one and be at least a little bit concise.

On the Hayley vs Elin issue... I knew I had to be careful with what I say, as I found myself Elin's voice richer in the aspect you mention, I think it's not only the age but also that Elin has been more strictly trained than Hayley, but you will know that better than me. Yes, the texture of Elin's voice is so amazingly rich, even in her higher notes (which is even more amazing, xD), and, yes, if Camilla was able to sing that way, I would certainly enjoy her much more than I do. However, what I meant saying Hayley's voice is deeper is that it is "fuller" and an amazing projection. Even when Hayley sings almost whispering, like in some parts of Winter Magic's Silent Night, her voice really has an amazing presence and really fills the sound in an incredible way. Of course, it's not that Elin's voice is thin, but certainly, I find it quite thinner than Hayley's, even when you compare Hayley's highest note on River of Dream's recording of Bach's Ave Maria.

Well, going to next thing, while Elin's texture is richer than Hayley, where I found the voices similar is in the timbre, and even more in the way they use their voices, the clear, angelic sound without (or with a very light) vibratto. As I said somewhere else, (omitting the trinos, as Hayley has never done them) I can so easily imagine Hayley singing Eternal Source of Light Divine with a vocal technique and sound very similar to Elin's performance.

And, yes, Elin's specialisation is "ancient" but not so much, as you have said, she sings baroque music in a baroque fashion,, and certainly not in the medieval or early renaissance fashion (typical "greagorian chant" style and similar). And, I must admit I enjoy ancient vocal music pretty much, and the ancient vocal technique too, probably more than modern opera style (which I enjoy a lot too). And, going back to Hayley's similitude to Elin, I've been thinking that Hayley's more classical voice is one rather close to that ancient/baroque standard, Actually, I recall having read somewhere on this forum a quote from a press article defending the idea that Hayley and other Classical Crossover singers with their lighter performances, far from "destroying" and "degradating" modern opera repertoire and technique, are rather getting it back close to the old singing fashion; I am not sure if I agree 100% with that idea, but I found it very interesting.

Another point I would like to discuss and ask your opinion is the existence of different sub-styles or fashions in Classical and Opera singing, And, by the way, I must say I am very happy to see I am not the only one insisting in the differenciation between Classical training and Opera training: Hayley certainly isn't an Opera singer, but to me she is a very good example of someone well-trained in Classical singing: even in her more pop songs, she uses classical techniques in a rather classical way (volume balance, for example), that's why I tend to consider her a classical singer even in her pop repertoire. I wonder if you, chantelle, may agree with me on this.

Well, but, getting back to the existence of sub-styles in Classical and Opera singing, that's an idea I've been realising lately and I am glad to see it confirmed. But my idea of those sub-styles is rather intuitive, based on how I imagine them, rather than on true knowledge, and may be wrong. I even can't tel where exactly the differences are, as in some cases they are very light shades, but I guess it is the way of delivering the voice and making some techniques, I think one of the differences has to do with the way the legato is performed, So, if you don't mind, I'll put some examples of it and tell me if you agree or not. And, for most, I will use Hayley, as I think she has a very unique ability to emulate almost any style she wants, with very slight differences and, incredibly, she achieves it without loosing her own terrain, she is still the Hayley we all know and we could recognise her easily.

Starting chronologically, there's the medieval and early renaissance singing style, which is very clear, but actually, here there are two very different sub-styles: there's the way the religious music is sung, with that typical timbre and that kind of special vibratto, being graegorian singing a very characteristic sub-sub-style itself; Hayley emulates it absolutely incredibly for not being specialised in this field in Veni Veni Emmanuel from Winter Magic. On the other side, there's the medieval way of singing more popular songs, a good example is this, maybe weird vocally, but will do: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkh6LhWj5IA. Hmm... And Anúna or most of Méav's solo works are somewhere in between, Méav's way of singing being more associated (by me) with late renaissance (Greensleeves, for example).

Then there's Baroque style of singing, that of Elin Manahan Thomas and I think Hayley has emulated very, very brillantly in a couple of songs: Lascia Ch'io Pianga (specially the New Journey DVD version) and Rule Britannia. I am not that sure about the following one, but the way Hayley sings Wiegenlied or Bist Du Bei Mir, with those very smooth changes between notes, is somthing I associate with classicism and Mozart (even though I know Bist Du Bei Mir is baroque, by Bach, but I can't help thinking Hayley sings it different than the mentioned as baroque style of singing... for a comparison of what sounds baroque to me, find on Youtube the performance by Klaus Mertens). Then, finally, I associate the way modern opera is sung with the romanticism, with all that dramatic charge and the importance of the strong vibratto; Hayley has never done something that ressembles this, but the closest thing think I've seen is Un Giorno Per Noi on the Classical Brits.Hmm... so, those are my intuitive ideas of what the big sub-styles associated with different periods are, but, as I say, there are only intuitive, the way I imagine it, and I would love to be corrected by chantelle or anyone who has more knowledge than me, and of course, knowing anybody's opinion.

Moving on to yet another thing on your post, Chantelle, about the training I absolutely agree with you, becoming a classical singer requires years of training and hard work and even more demanding is true modern opera. However, when you said the teenager thing, someone came to my mind, guess who? Yes, that absolutely antinatural girl who at the age of 12 had the voice of a classically trained mezzosoprano, Faryl Smith. I am aware technically she is far away from the standards of an Opera singer, but she without doubts is one in a million. The way she uses the vibratto is something absolutely unseen to me even in more grown up and classically trained teens, as is her warm beautiful mezzosoprano timbre that (as far as I know) usually develops much later, being teen girls usually rather high-pitched kid-sopranos as Hayley at that age. Even more, my friend, singing student, has said she sings quite better than Katherine Jenkins, who has without doubt had a much more complete and exhaustive training in the school Joanna Marie mentions. So, Chantelle, do you have any explanation on Faryl's phenomenon or is it just a very unique case of talent and antinatural early developed voice?

Hmm... And now I am going to sleep now. Been writing this really for hours and it's late now... If I left something I wanted to say, I may add that tomorrow.

Michal

[martindn]

Hi Michal,

Thanks for that, yes you are right, I could almost believe that Bist Du Bei Mir was a piece of Mozart when Hayley sings it.

I think that both Faryl and Hayley have benefitted fro not having a formal musical education. Perhaps sometimes such training can pour an artist into a conventional mould, although it would be unfair to suggest that they just turn out identical robot musicians with all the creativity educated out of them. But I think that drumming conventional ideas into talented performers might in some way limit their ability to experiment.

Both Hayley and Faryl do things their own way, and that is what gives them their individual appeal. I have always felt that that is what makes a great artist. The "system" turns out excellent technical performers, but somehow I find the mavericks more interesting and appealing, assuming of course that they have a decent level of technical proficiency. Katherine Jenkins is a typical product of the "system" I think.

Another maverick is Camilla Kerslake. If she could only get her technical ability up to a standard where it does not spoil her performances, she would be wonderful. And she does seem to be working on and sorting out that side of her singing, so I live in hope.

I was at a concert tonight. It was a charity concert in aid of the Royal British Legion (no, not Hayley's,. featuring a small local choir made up of singers from my church and some other local churches. Plus a young soprano, a student from the Birminghan Conservertoire, but she didn't sing, she played percussion, very well although she had never performed that way before. They performed Karl Jesnkins' The Armed Man, and if you know it you will know that the percussion is a very important part. The other import was the son of a friend, the only profesiona musician involved, who is a very fine organist.

The whole of The Armed Man was done entirely with choir, organ and percussion. And it was brilliant! The immense power of Karl Jenkins' composition came through, I think even better than when I heard it performed by professional musicians conducted by the composer himself.

As for our organist, he did a "comedy" version of the "Hornpipe" as part of the "Last Night of the Proms" that had references to Bach, Handel and Vidor, and again, it was a great performance.

The point is that only the organist had a formal musical education, and the percussionist, although currently being educated in that way, is a singer not a percussionist. So just about everybody was an amateur. Yet it was a wonderful and very enjoyable evening of music.

Please don't think that I am against formal musical education, I am not. But I do feel that in general, provided they can reach a sufficient technical standard, those who do without it tend to be more exciting artists.

Martin D

[larryhauck]

Jun 26, 2010 1:39:46 GMT mihizawi said:

Sir yes sir, Dave, lol, joking, joking...

Well, the discussions I refer to as me drifting off-topic usually start with Hayley or something closely related to her (the thread on Classical-Crossover.co.uk has been a frequent victim of my driftings, but there have been some Hayley threads too), and I tend to discus music rather from the classical side, so I guess from my side there's not too much danger of ending up on The Rolling Stones, xD. I think things like classical singing techinque, definition of Classical Crossover and voice classifications are related enough to Hayley to fit into the description of this board. My idea here was, rather than a thread to start new discussions, to make a place to continue the discussions that may have started somewhere else and have drifted too much off-topic.

And, well, for now, what I wanted is to reply to Chantelle's post, and I am afraid I will touch so many different aspects and points that, if you excuse me, I will not try to find a suitable existing thread (unless, of course, there's already one that generic, if so, please, let me know and I will try to find it).

Well, to start, I'll quote Chantelle's post here:

Jun 25, 2010 19:39:37 GMT chantelle said:

Hi Michal,
The voice classifications (from dramatic to coloratura) are not exclusive to opera, however they to tend to be reserved for singers whose careers center around classical music. (For example, Barbra Streisand is generally known as a mezzo-soprano, but the classification is never more specific than that.) And as Hayley's repertoire is... well, the strictly classical pieces are definitely in the minority! I'm not sure we need to concern ourselves with her classification. But if pressed, I would put Hayley firmly into the soubrette category. Each of the classifications requires great vocal stamina and ability, so coloraturas certainly aren't "lightweights" in comparison to dramatics! But a soubrette possesses the "sweetest" and generally the most youthful tone-- Susanna from "Le Nozze de Figaro" is a classic soubrette role, and I think Hayley's voice fits into this easy-on-the-ears, sweet-toned group.
As for Elin! Although I'm familiar with her name I'm less familiar with her voice or music so I'm going off a couple audio clips and her biography. You're right, Elin is an "ancient" music specialist (although not quite so ancient as all that-- her debut album focuses on Baroque repertoire) and considering that the voice classifications as we've been discussing them came into existence along with the development of "modern" opera (we bascially have Mozart to thank for that!) they don't necessarily apply to Baroque singing, which was an entirely different discipline altogether. Elin has the unique "boy soprano" (bad terminology, but it gets the point across) type of voice that Camilla Kerslake could have given several years of intensive and dedicated training... Again, one of the best ways to judge a classical singer's voice is to look at their resume, and Elin's opera / oratorio work includes roles mostly on the lighter, but not necessarily coloratura, end of the scale. Roles such as Pamina (The Magic Flute), Micaela (Carmen), and Despina (Cosi fan tutte) can be and have been performed by able-voiced sopranos of all classifications except the very heaviest! However, Elin seems to prefer pre-Mozart composers such as Handel and Purcell, as her rather unique voice conforms to the sound that composers seemed to prefer "back in the day." Just listening to her, I'd put her in the light lyric category. I actually think Elin has more "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifepth" to her voice than Hayley, but that's probably just because Elin is several years older! Fact of life-- the voice becomes richer as the singer becomes older. (In this case of "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifepth" and "richness" I'm referring to the layers of harmonic overtones than can be heard in the voice. Hayley's voice is fairly shallow harmonically, while Elin's voice seems to have more lower harmonic tones supporting those ridiculously high notes!)

(General Music Rambling- Feel Free to Skip This Part!)
Please bear in mind-- the whole concept of the operatic voice, and to a slightly lesser extent the classical voice, revolves around training. I don't remember whose publicity blurb made this claim a while back, but I had to laugh because the singer claimed to have a "naturally occuring operatic voice." Sorry, but Luciano Pavarotti didn't just wake up one morning and decide to sing like Pavarotti! It's a discipline and an acquired style just as much as Whitney Houston's melissma or a rock star's "screaming" or LeAnn Rimes's belting. Yes, some people are gifted with larger and louder voices than others, but in its raw and untrained form, the voice is just that. Loud.
A young child trying to imitate her favorite pop star's scoops and slides will sound affected and unnatural because she is intentionally mimicking a style, and a young person trying to "sing opera" purely on the basis of mimickry will sound just as affected and forced. It proves that the operatic style is one that has to be intentionally put on, a costume to be donned, rather than something that happens naturally.

Usually a lot is made of the fact that "classical / operatic" singing is the "healthiest" way in which to use the voice, and so an argument could be made that it is the most naturally correct way to use the voice. But first of all, just because something is healthy doesn't mean our body automatically does it that way! There would be no need for voice teachers if that were the case! Secondly, I'm not sure that the "healthy" way of singing actually conforms to the "operatic / classical" style (which really should be two seperate styles, with several sub-styles, as I've repeatedly pointed out due to difference in repertoire). It just seems that way because the only time you really hear about "healthy singing" is from classical singers and teachers! I think the closest thing to a naturally occuring voice will be found in a good choral singer-- the singer is using correct technique in all respects but without the demands of putting on a solo performance or projecting their lone voice over an orchestra and is thus using their voice correctly and allowing their natural voice (which may or may not be a thing of beauty- but it doesn't matter in a group!) to sound without any added strain of "style."

Also. A young person with a fundamental gift for singing and an interest in classical / operatic music has a certain amount of flexibility as to what kind of voice they want to become, especially those of us not blessed with a particularly large, loud, deep, or high instrument to start out with. A young average "lyric" can learn the higher, more flexible coloratura roles-- certainly in terms of oratorio if not opera (it's much easier to sustain a few solos in The Messiah than it is to sing an entire Handel opera!) OR she could develop the lower, deeper part of her voice in hopes of singing, if not Wagner, then at least Verdi someday. The different repertoires that a singer focuses on can give them an entirely different sound. Personally, I love singing German and French repertoire, which probably robs my voice of some of the flexibility it would have if I focused on Italian repertoire. The old saying, "use it or lose it," holds true for singing as much as anything else. A singer is constantly battling to maintain their top, lower, and middle registers all at the same time. Those "sweet spots" I was talking about can change over the course of time-- your vocal chords are like muscles in that they can be retrained and their strengths and weaknesses can be refocused. I've developed an abnormally low range for a soprano because I wanted to sing jazz. A bass-baritone friend of mine loves singing musical theatre, so he has maintained an incredibly high "belter" range, stretching up into notes tenors would be jealous of!
It's all in the training. How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice.

And finally, as if this weren't all confusing enough...! Voices change as they get older, too. (See: Elin vs. Hayley, above) The human voice isn't really settled in its type until about 30 years old (not a magic number by any means, but a good average number) which is why you don't see many singers in their 20s in lead roles at the Met! They are still learning and still training and still developing their voice. Women go through another drastic voice change at 40, which is why a soubrette/lyric who has only been singing Susanna until her 40s may suddenly be able to sing the heavier role of The Countess, because the voice has matured and deepened!
(End of Rambling)

Regarding Joanna and Nessun Dorma! No, a tenor aria generally doesn't do a soprano any favors... But Joanna seems to acquit herself very well indeed here! However, I definitely agree wtih Nicola and hope that this is the end of the "usual" crossover repertoire that we'll see from Joanna. On the bright side, her website refers to Nessun Dorma as a "special" recording, so maybe it was made exclusively for this video and won't be appearing on the album? The recording quality doesn't sound quite as polished as the samples of "You'll Never Walk Alone" and "The Prayer" that we've heard. In fact, I'd almost bet you that the accompaniment is a karaoke track. My money says this one won't be on the album!

Just to give Joanna her due on this thread...! haha I will say that even though the song has been done to death, her arrangement of The Prayer is fresh and enjoyable. I love the duet-with-self harmonies during the bridge of the song.

Nicola, I read your interview-- well done, as usual! Joanna is incredibly likeable, and her personality really shines through. Hopefully some of her TV appearances will be available to watch here in the US, because I'm sure she's an absolute firecracker to see "in person."

And there's also your previous post that has some very interesting statements about Hayley, but I won't quote it, it's gonna be a kilometric post anyway. There are so many thoughts that passed through my mind when reading your posts... Well, I'll try to go one by one and be at least a little bit concise.

On the Hayley vs Elin issue... I knew I had to be careful with what I say, as I found myself Elin's voice richer in the aspect you mention, I think it's not only the age but also that Elin has been more strictly trained than Hayley, but you will know that better than me. Yes, the texture of Elin's voice is so amazingly rich, even in her higher notes (which is even more amazing, xD), and, yes, if Camilla was able to sing that way, I would certainly enjoy her much more than I do. However, what I meant saying Hayley's voice is deeper is that it is "fuller" and an amazing projection. Even when Hayley sings almost whispering, like in some parts of Winter Magic's Silent Night, her voice really has an amazing presence and really fills the sound in an incredible way. Of course, it's not that Elin's voice is thin, but certainly, I find it quite thinner than Hayley's, even when you compare Hayley's highest note on River of Dream's recording of Bach's Ave Maria.

Well, going to next thing, while Elin's texture is richer than Hayley, where I found the voices similar is in the timbre, and even more in the way they use their voices, the clear, angelic sound without (or with a very light) vibratto. As I said somewhere else, (omitting the trinos, as Hayley has never done them) I can so easily imagine Hayley singing Eternal Source of Light Divine with a vocal technique and sound very similar to Elin's performance.

And, yes, Elin's specialisation is "ancient" but not so much, as you have said, she sings baroque music in a baroque fashion,, and certainly not in the medieval or early renaissance fashion (typical "greagorian chant" style and similar). And, I must admit I enjoy ancient vocal music pretty much, and the ancient vocal technique too, probably more than modern opera style (which I enjoy a lot too). And, going back to Hayley's similitude to Elin, I've been thinking that Hayley's more classical voice is one rather close to that ancient/baroque standard, Actually, I recall having read somewhere on this forum a quote from a press article defending the idea that Hayley and other Classical Crossover singers with their lighter performances, far from "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifestroying" and "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifegradating" modern opera repertoire and technique, are rather getting it back close to the old singing fashion; I am not sure if I agree 100% with that idea, but I found it very interesting.

Another point I would like to discuss and ask your opinion is the existence of different sub-styles or fashions in Classical and Opera singing, And, by the way, I must say I am very happy to see I am not the only one insisting in the differenciation between Classical training and Opera training: Hayley certainly isn't an Opera singer, but to me she is a very good example of someone well-trained in Classical singing: even in her more pop songs, she uses classical techniques in a rather classical way (volume balance, for example), that's why I tend to consider her a classical singer even in her pop repertoire. I wonder if you, chantelle, may agree with me on this.

Well, but, getting back to the existence of sub-styles in Classical and Opera singing, that's an idea I've been realising lately and I am glad to see it confirmed. But my idea of those sub-styles is rather intuitive, based on how I imagine them, rather than on true knowledge, and may be wrong. I even can't tel where exactly the differences are, as in some cases they are very light shades, but I guess it is the way of delivering the voice and making some techniques, I think one of the differences has to do with the way the legato is performed, So, if you don't mind, I'll put some examples of it and tell me if you agree or not. And, for most, I will use Hayley, as I think she has a very unique ability to emulate almost any style she wants, with very slight differences and, incredibly, she achieves it without loosing her own terrain, she is still the Hayley we all know and we could recognise her easily.

Starting chronologically, there's the medieval and early renaissance singing style, which is very clear, but actually, here there are two very different sub-styles: there's the way the religious music is sung, with that typical timbre and that kind of special vibratto, being graegorian singing a very characteristic sub-sub-style itself; Hayley emulates it absolutely incredibly for not being specialised in this field in Veni Veni Emmanuel from Winter Magic. On the other side, there's the medieval way of singing more popular songs, a good example is this, maybe weird vocally, but will do: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkh6LhWj5IA. Hmm... And Anúna or most of Méav's solo works are somewhere in between, Méav's way of singing being more associated (by me) with late renaissance (Greensleeves, for example).

Then there's Baroque style of singing, that of Elin Manahan Thomas and I think Hayley has emulated very, very brillantly in a couple of songs: Lascia Ch'io Pianga (specially the New Journey DVD version) and Rule Britannia. I am not that sure about the following one, but the way Hayley sings Wiegenlied or Bist Du Bei Mir, with those very smooth changes between notes, is somthing I associate with classicism and Mozart (even though I know Bist Du Bei Mir is baroque, by Bach, but I can't help thinking Hayley sings it different than the mentioned as baroque style of singing... for a comparison of what sounds baroque to me, find on Youtube the performance by Klaus Mertens). Then, finally, I associate the way modern opera is sung with the romanticism, with all that dramatic charge and the importance of the strong vibratto; Hayley has never done something that ressembles this, but the closest thing think I've seen is Un Giorno Per Noi on the Classical Brits.Hmm... so, those are my intuitive ideas of what the big sub-styles associated with different periods are, but, as I say, there are only intuitive, the way I imagine it, and I would love to be corrected by chantelle or anyone who has more knowledge than me, and of course, knowing anybody's opinion.

Moving on to yet another thing on your post, Chantelle, about the training I absolutely agree with you, becoming a classical singer requires years of training and hard work and even more demanding is true modern opera. However, when you said the teenager thing, someone came to my mind, guess who? Yes, that absolutely antinatural girl who at the age of 12 had the voice of a classically trained mezzosoprano, Faryl Smith. I am aware technically she is far away from the standards of an Opera singer, but she without doubts is one in a million. The way she uses the vibratto is something absolutely unseen to me even in more grown up and classically trained teens, as is her warm beautiful mezzosoprano timbre that (as far as I know) usually develops much later, being teen girls usually rather high-pitched kid-sopranos as Hayley at that age. Even more, my friend, singing student, has said she sings quite better than Katherine Jenkins, who has without doubt had a much more complete and exhaustive training in the school Joanna Marie mentions. So, Chantelle, do you have any explanation on Faryl's phenomenon or is it just a very unique case of talent and antinatural early developed voice?

Hmm... And now I am going to sleep now. Been writing this really for hours and it's late now... If I left something I wanted to say, I may add that tomorrow.

Michal

My english prof would have wrote "wordy" on this post. LOL
Larry

[martindn]

Well, nothing wrong with that Larry. I think that discussions like this, involving people who clearly know more about music than I do, can only be educational. I find them fascinating.

Martin D

[Richard]

I'd rather talk about Hayley.

Richard

[mihizawi]

Sept 20, 2010 21:11:57 GMT martindn said:

Yes, I agree. I don't accept that "opera" singers are better than singers from other genres. This is often implied yet to my ears opera is a very specialised and acquired taste. Opera singers have certain characteristics, lots of power and an ability to project their voices, but not necessarily great range or control. And I too hate excessive vibrato, and above all screeching sopranos.
I think I would be horrified if Hayley decided to embark on operatic training. All that beautiful delicacy of expression, her fabulous expressiveness that comes from her own personality, her originality, would be lost. I much rather a singer express him/herself freely than be constrained within the limits of a particular style.
Opera can be enjoyable (I draw the line at Wagner) but its singers are limited. The best singers (like Hayley) demean themselves if they submit to those limits. (IMO of course)

Martin D

Well, I certainly appreciate good Opera singers, and I admit that being a good opera singer is at a higher level in terms of difficulty than any other standard singing style. And I must admit I enjoy very much when Opera singers use their techniques not only correctly, but classy enough to make the singing come alive, afterall Opera is about reaching the highest level of expression through technical skills. And the vibratto is only one of those techniques, but things like volume, rhythm and intonation are as important, if not more. Well, all those things are important in other modalities of Classical singing and playing, but in Opera they are used in a concrete, more exagerated way.

Having said this, I am not a fan of the fashion of the indiscriminate use that very strong and exagerated vibratto. Over the 20th century Opera the exagerated vibratto seems to have turned into a display of technical higher abbility by Opera divas. But, when you use it all the time the same way, it looses its main, expressive function. A moderate or moderately strong vibratto is fine when singing Operas from the romantic era, as this is the way those Operas are meant to be sung, because it suits the importance of strong emotions and dramatism the romantic art looked after. But even here, the very strong vibratto should be used only in the most dramatic moments (and, even here it shouldn't sound as the typical "display type" vibratto... here is a video of, inmy opinion, a very good use of a strong dramatic vibratto: www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOIAi2XwuWo but as Purcell is a Baroque composer, this was probably more meant to sound like this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gyQWW_OC_4). But, to stay true to the spirit of "how it was meant to be sung", any Operas written earlier than the romantic era (and this includes Mozart) should be sung with a much lighter, if any, vibratto, reserving it for dramatic, expressive use in certain parts. Oh, and just one more thing on vibratto: some Classical Crossover use it in a rather indiscriminate way too, like Katherine Jenkins or, sometimes, Sarah Brightman.

Compared to the omnipresent vibratto in modern Opera singing, I much prefer the way that Baroque specialist sing, including Baroque operas, which is sung with a much lighter voice, closer to Hayley or Camilla Kerslake (see how Rolando Villazón sings Handel, even without being a specialist in Baroque... the change is very noticeable). And I like much more Baroque ornamentation (trills and other very fast notes) than vibratto. Singers like Elin Manahan Thomas or the most renowned countertenors (Jaroussky, Scholl...) are examples of such baroque specialists.

And now, something about our Hayley, one of the many things that amazes me of her and her singing is that, indeed, she uses the Classical expressive techniques I referred to at the beginning of this post, but she is such a master in using them in such a subtle but precise way that many times you don't realize it if you don't pay attention, and yet, if you do notice it, you realize how well-used it is. Volume and tempo changes are mayybe a little more noticeable, but actually, Hayley uses a very light vibratto in several more songs than most of us would notice... For example, I had listened to Hayley's Lascia Ch'io Pianga recording from A new Journey DVD so many times before, but one day this summer I found myself so surprised by noticing taht she indeed uses vibratto in some very concrete notes inm that performance... Another good example is the recording during a radio interview of a short part of May it Be a capella.

Michal

Edit: In this post, when I talk about how Opera should sound, notice that I say to stay true to "how it was meant to sound"... Singing Baroque operas in modern opera style is as valid as any other artistic freedoms and licenses that artists take... I say this mainly to show how most opera purists are wrong when being critic with any new different approach to their so-precious arias, as Classical Crossover artists do... Even in Opera there's room for changes and creative experiments.

[comet]

Forgive me for being amused Martin and Steve.


The two guys who think it would be a good idea to release Hayley on vinyl,

with all it's associated problems with distortion,
wow, flutter, hum, feedback, rumble and equalisation of signals from magnetic pick ups.

(Problems that were removed by the advent of digital recording)

The best thing you can do with vinyl is melt it down and make LEGO bricks out of it.

Modern professional recording and playback equipment is getting pretty close to perfect,

I do agree, the less that is done with the signal the better.

---

Edit by Dave: this post is a continuation of the discussion here.

[Roger-G]

Nov 8, 2010 9:26:13 GMT comet said:

Forgive me for being amused Martin and Steve.


The two guys who think it would be a good idea to release Hayley on vinyl,

with all it's associated problems with distortion,
wow, flutter, hum, feedback, rumble and equalisation of signals from magnetic pick ups.

(Problems that were removed by the advent of digital recording)

The best thing you can do with vinyl is melt it down and make LEGO bricks out of it.

Modern professional recording and playback equipment is getting pretty close to perfect,

I do agree, the less that is done with the signal the better.

Recorded sound starts as analogue signals leaving a voice or instrument, and finishes with analogue signals going into the ear. In between, the less processing the better. Digitising the signal immediately introduces quantising errors, and often the signal is compressed to reduce the effect on low level signals.

However good the A-D and D-A converters, the processed signal can never be quite as clean as an unbroken analogue path from microphone to speaker. Yes, analogue vinyl records can introduce unwanted effects but it is surprising how little these intrude on the enjoyment of a high quality performance.

But the worst problem with digital recordings is that the studio can never resist the temptation to 'improve' them with the multitude of effects that are available in the digital domain. All too often the final result bears as little resemblance to the original voice as a photoshopped image on the front of a magazine does to the tired face of a drugged-up 'supermodel'. With many high profile performers this enhancement is essential to make their singing tolerable, but with someone like Hayley the result can never be as good as the original.
This is why so many people who have attended a Hayley concert will confirm that she sounds so much better live than on record. And this is quite separate from the bonus of seeing her live - she actually sounds better. The best/worst example of this is the Winter album which (in my opinion) is grossly over-produced and sounds bland in comparison to her sparkling live performances.

[martindn]

Well said Roger,

For one thing I have always regarded the sampling frequency of CD quality digital recordings as too low. When |I was younger I could hear up to around 19.5 KHz. That is uncomfortably close to the maximum frequency that can be produed by CD technology, and at that frequency it will necessarily be a square wave, not a sine wave. That alone means distorted sound. (remember, Fourier analysis of a square wave will "invent" some higher frequencies that aren't actually there).
I think that Hayley's voice has some very high frequency harmomnics. That is why she always sounds less impressive on CD. I think you have to hear her live, and preferably unamplified to understand that. Perfect on CD? Don't make me laugh!
Vinyl I accept will give different distortions, but I suspect the whole thing might just give a better impression of what Hayley's voice is like, despite the clicks and pops, wow and flutter, rumble and hiss.
But Roger, you have it right. Hearing her live is an amazing experience. Hearing her live and unplugged, as I have, is something I will never forget. The sheer quality of that voice takes your breath away. No recording I have ever heard comes close.

Sorry mods, this isn't about Jackie at all. But I needed to say something.

Of course I have no idea what Jackie sounds like live. She is certainly impressive on TV. But I've not heard any comments anything like the ones we often hear about Hayley's live performances.

Martin D

[Roger-G]

Nov 8, 2010 23:05:17 GMT martindn said:

That alone means distorted sound. (remember, Fourier analysis of a square wave will "invent" some higher frequencies that aren't actually there).

Actually to be a bit picky Martin, a square wave does actually contain an infinite series of odd harmonics. Fourier says so. But they are immediately lost in the A-D process. I agree that the cutoff is on the low side - the sampling rate had to be set low to get a reasonable recording time on the CD (at the time the spec was set). But I don't think that for those of us with mature ears the upper limit is a problem - it's the quantising errors that cause audible effects. And they would also be reduced with a faster sampling rate.

Having said all that the CD is for most purposes a very convenient and reliable storage medium and I'm glad to use it. I just wish that the studio and post-production would LEAVE THE VOICE ALONE and let it speak/sing for itself.

[martindn]

Hi Roger,

Yes, Roger, I understand that. What I'm saying is if you only get a couple of samples per cycle, you don't know what shape the waveform actually is, so you have to guess. And that guess is likely to be wrong, so the sound will be distorted. And whether you look at it like that, or treat is as a collection of sine waves makes no difference.

So what it boils down to is you cannot not lose information if you only record periodic samples. It is quite surprising to me that CD tachnology works as well as it does. But where high frequencies are concerned, perhaps it only works if you don't know what the original sounded like, which is usually the case of course.

Not that I, with my aged ears, should be able to notice it. But somehow I do, and although I think recordings of Hayley's voice have improved over the years (her voice has matured and become stronger too) I still think she always sounds better live.

Martin D

[Roger-G]

Nov 9, 2010 23:06:18 GMT martindn said:

Not that I, with my aged ears, should be able to notice it. But somehow I do, and although I think recordings of Hayley's voice have improved over the years (her voice has matured and become stronger too) I still think she always sounds better live.

We agree of course. The only way to hear any voice properly is 'live' - mouth to ear. A live microphone properly set up is a good second-best.
If the voice has to be recorded then analogue end-to-end is the only means to a faithful reproduction.
But CD is better than nothing!

[stevemacdonald]

Nov 8, 2010 9:26:13 GMT comet said:

Forgive me for being amused Martin and Steve.

The two guys who think it would be a good idea to release Hayley on vinyl ...

Oh it's more than that, Comet. I advocate a return to using film when snapping photos of Hayley!

And since I do find Roger-G's comments about analogue vs digital extraordinarily interesting, I'd be especially curious as to what he thinks in regard to the film vs digital debate from this page: hwi.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Suggestions&action=display&thread=5561&page=1