Dave
Administrator
HWI Admin
Posts: 7,700
|
Post by Dave on Nov 10, 2010 20:09:12 GMT
Hi guys, In my opinion, a significant part of the reason why Hayley sounds better in live performance is post-production messing around with tracks recorded for CD. Dynamic limiting of audio peak levels and dynamic compression of tracks for example, to make them sound 'louder'. Some record companies and other members of the music community think this is a really good thing.  For a\nyone who doesn't know, this means that most of the louder sounds are maxed out in loudness, and the quieter sounds are increased in volume so the difference between loud and quiet is smaller and everything sounds louder. At concerts, we get the full dynamic range (or much more of it) and visual cues too, which with someone like Hayley who can actually sing well unaided, will always enhance her live performances. I can provide a visual example of this, as I have one of Hayley's songs from a Japanese album before it was sent for the final CD production work - and obviously I have the song on the CD. The comparison is quite, quite shocking so here it is - the complete audio waveform of both versions (original on the left, CD on the right). Those of you who understand these things will need no further explanation but if anyone else does, please ask. I have obscured the track name as I'm not sure if I should be revealing this!   It's quite a gentle song, not a rock song  so it's not hard to guess which version sounds best. Cheers, Dave |
|
|
|
Post by Roger-G on Nov 10, 2010 20:38:54 GMT
Hi guys, In my opinion, a significant part of the reason why Hayley sounds better in live performance is post-production messing around with tracks recorded for CD. er yes, I think I said that a few posts ago  But if you think the level of compression on a CD is excessive, look at it again after it's been broadcast through a typically mal-adjusted Xxxxxxxxxxxx. Edit: Equipment name removed for legal reasons! |
|
Dave
Administrator
HWI Admin
Posts: 7,700
|
Post by Dave on Nov 10, 2010 20:45:22 GMT
Hi guys, In my opinion, a significant part of the reason why Hayley sounds better in live performance is post-production messing around with tracks recorded for CD. er yes, I think I said that a few posts ago Yes but as they say, a picture can be worth a thousand words. I am indeed agreeing with you here. Dave |
|
|
|
Post by martindn on Nov 11, 2010 14:14:51 GMT
Yuck. I see what you mean Dave. I wonder if there is any software around that can reverse changes like that, ie reverse dynamic range compression. It would be impossible of course to guess how much has been lopped off the peaks, but what range there is could be expanded I guess.
It's always a two edged sword I think though. People often play CD's in noisy environments like cars, as I often do, when the quiet bits can get lost in the road noise and you find yourself forever fiddling with the volume control. In such a situation, a bit of compression is probably a good thing.
But when listening at home on a hi-fi system, I'd rather have it without the compression. Perhaps the record companies could consider releasing higher quality uncompressed versions of music CDs for those of us who care about such things.
Martin D
|
|
|
|
Post by amptique on Nov 11, 2010 14:33:13 GMT
Perhaps Dave could just accidentally drop that preproduction version onto a fresh piece of vinyl for us. :wink: Oh, how I would love to have Hayley's voice pressed onto a vinyl disk. That would be heaven.  Bill |
|
|
|
Post by martindn on Nov 11, 2010 17:04:28 GMT
I'm sure Dave's pre-production version is still a digital recording though Bill. You need an analogue recording to make it worth putting on vinyl.
Martin D
|
|
|
|
Post by amptique on Nov 11, 2010 21:07:11 GMT
I'm sure Dave's pre-production version is still a digital recording though Bill. You need an analogue recording to make it worth putting on vinyl. Martin D I'm sure it is. In the studio, are the masters still done in analog or have they gone entirely digital as well? Bill |
|
Dave
Administrator
HWI Admin
Posts: 7,700
|
Post by Dave on Nov 11, 2010 23:26:07 GMT
I'm sure Dave's pre-production version is still a digital recording though Bill. You need an analogue recording to make it worth putting on vinyl. Martin D I'm sure it is. In the studio, are the masters still done in analog or have they gone entirely digital as well? Bill Hi Bill and Martin D, The first version is a mere .mp3, recorded at 320 kbps but clearly from a significantly earlier stage in the production process. To my ears it sounds cleaner and "more interesting" than the final CD because you can hear more of the nuances of Hayley's voice and the instrumentation, I feel strongly that a wide dynamic range is an essential part of my enjoyment of the kind of music I like. As for the .mp3 bit, well it may be just one generation from the final mix, which of course would have been been digitally recorded in this day and age. I find excessive dynamic compression and limiting of music on CD (and other processing) to be more harmful to the sound than this probable first generation file compression at 320 kbps but of course, it's rarely that one gets the opportunity to make that comparison. I hasten to add that I am not saying .mp3s bought from iTunes etc. are as good as either the CD versions, or my .mp3 version, they are of course likely to be a bit worse even at 320k. Cheers, Dave |
|
|
|
Post by Roger-G on Nov 12, 2010 11:22:51 GMT
Just to add to Dave's comments, everything in the studio is digital now.
The original multiple tracks (one for each performer, and not necessarily recorded in the same session) are always kept in the original "as recorded" form on hard disk. There may be more than one generation of adjustment to individual tracks before or during the final mix, but the originals will always be retained somewhere. Back in the day when the same album was issued on vinyl, cassette and/or CD, the processing would be adjusted to suit each medium.
The amount of voice processing varies considerably according to the performer. Without wishing to offend anyone, I am certain that for instance Susan Boyle's voice will be 'adjusted' more than Hayley's.
What would be real gold would be to hear the original single track recordings of Hayley's studio sessions before any processing or mixing, but I fear that will never happen.
|
|
|
|
Post by martindn on Nov 12, 2010 23:36:01 GMT
Yes Roger, I'm afraid you are right. That's why I treasure the times I've heard Hayley live. There is just no way that any, let alone digital, recording technology can do anything to Hayley other than make her sound worse.
That is not universally true of all artists of course. Some sound horrible live, but passable on record. I think we know why.
Martin D
|
|
|
|
Post by postscript on Nov 13, 2010 14:50:15 GMT
An interesting debate. There is a short article in this month's 'Classic fm' on the structural differences between an operatic singer and popular singer. Perhaps one might compare the oboe and clarinet. There are some notes where it is difficult to tell which instrument and yet with other notes it is very obvious. A singer can only work with the instrument he/she has and it is the physique of the singer that determines what she can do and what she can't, most noticeably in timbre and volume and yes, there is a difference between the live and the recorded sound however good the recording and yes, there is too the difference between the live recording without mikes, how ever good the mike but some voices have the volume, others don't.
Hayley likes small theatres as much as she loves the great stage. Just one day soon, might she sing without mikes? I have The Palace Theatre in Watford in mind. It holds 600 and on the front of the stage you feel as if you could shake hands with the front row of the circle. That is the sort of theatre in which she might reasonably try it and with perhaps only Ian and Fiona, it could be cost-effective?
Peter S.
|
|
|
|
Post by postscript on Nov 13, 2010 15:34:52 GMT
Hi.
Here is my follow on point.
In her interview for Ireland Faryl said:
FS: Yeah, definitely. Singing with José Carreras and meeting Plácido Domingo and things like that... I mean The Three Tenors are the best classical singers in the world, so just to even be close to that is amazing. It's been great. I've done duets with so many people and even Jonathan [Ansell], he's so, so nice. It's really, really nice to collaborate with different people. One of my ambitions would probably be to perform in an opera, with no microphones, just performance and acting it out. So that's probably one of the things on my list.
That last sentence is interesting. She is perhaps unaware of Kiri's comments in this area but is aware in her own way of the differences.
Peter S.
|
|
|
|
Post by Elliot Kane on Nov 13, 2010 22:22:54 GMT
Just seen Dave's graphs at the top of page 2 of this thread. Ye gods, that's a horrible thing to do to a poor, innocent song! Not that I think music industry execs have any genuine respect for their audiences, but even so...
Maybe some artists do need that, but to do it as a matter of course is just wrong, IMO.
|
|
|
|
Post by mihizawi on Nov 13, 2010 23:07:34 GMT
Well, what Dave has explained is a shame. I pretty much like the produced sound of both Winter Magic and Hayley Sings Japanese Songs, it sounds very nice, but having Hayley, who have mastered the volume dynamics to a point that many classical or even opera singer could envy her, maybe they could let it shine in a bunch of songs, while producing some other,
Maybe the solution would be Hayley recording with Deutsche Gramophon? xD, that would be interesting.
Michal
|
|
|
|
Post by Roger-G on Nov 13, 2010 23:44:58 GMT
Maybe the solution would be Hayley recording with Deutsche Gramophon? xD, that would be interesting. That seems unlikely. Decca and Deutsche Grammophon are both labels of Universal Music, and they are unlikely to think she would fit better in the DG catalogue than the Decca one. In ny case she would probably still be recording in the same studios. But remember Hayley is coming to the end of her contract with Decca and has just changed management, so there could be big changes next year. |
|
so it's not hard to guess which version sounds best.
