Is she getting too good?

[stevemacdonald]

Thanks to all who posted recent concert clips on YouTube! This lets the rest of us join in the fun to no small extent!

One thing I've noticed lately is that Hayley is starting to become so flawless in tone, phrasing and musicality that now I worry she might be on the verge of being too good. Too good for what, you ask? Too good to improve, I say, not that she needs to. It's just that when you're at the height of your abilities at age 21 what more should you aspire to? Many of the reviews Hayley's getting depict her as completely, unmistakably great, as though the sky has been reached and that's that. May I humbly suggest we set about finding fault in her singing, not that there actually is any. The reason is that we will appreciate her much more into the future if we don't look at her now as utterly perfect (even though she may well be).

So let the quibbles come out. Did she linger on a golden note a millisecond too long? Tell us. Was her subtle vibrato ever so slightly rushed as she glided from C to A minor? Gripe about it. Or worst of all, is she so good it's scary and you don't like to be scared? Bring the criticism on! The intent is not to humble Hayley, but to extend our full appreciation for the long haul.

[Dave]

Hi Steve,

Nobody is suggesting seriously that Hayley (or any other singer) is perfect, or even as good as she can be! She's certainly continuing to develop in many ways, particularly in live performance, and it will be fascinating to discover just how she develops in the future.

I'm certainly not going to attempt to pick out any flaws as you suggest, what a negative thing to do; why would anyone want to do that?

Cheers, Dave

[stevemacdonald]

Feb 23, 2009 20:30:58 GMT Dave said:

...
I'm certainly not going to attempt to pick out any flaws as you suggest, what a negative thing to do; why would anyone want to do that? ...

Heh, I wasn't asking anyone to be unduly negative -- note that I said "quibbles". Personally, I can't find any faults in her voice or performances. I was wondering if anyone else could.

[martindn]

No Steve, neither can I find any fault. But she has been like that for a while now. You cannot understand how it can ever get better, but somehow it does. That is what is so exciting about Hayley. She is setting new standards all the time. I cannot therefore say, as I have never been able to, that she is perfect and cannot improve. I have thought that for years, yet improve she does. Who knows where it will end, but I hope it isn't soon.

Martin

[nicola]

Hayley is not *too* good. I don't think you can be too good.

Hayley has a varied, wide, fulfilling journey to walk musically and emotionally. One of Hayley's weaknesses at the moment for me is evoking emotion in her voice but she may not see that as a weakness at all. Of course, it could be a matter of opinion, but I have noticed it widely noted round the web that emotion is not her forte at this stage.

Other than that, I can't really fault Hayley. Sure, she has a lot of growth and learning in her musical career and direction, but that's far from a flaw. It's rather exciting to watch a young artist to explore and grow.

As to the tecnical side of her voice; well, that's perfect! Nothing wrong with a dash of perfection. <3

[martindn]

Hi Nicola,

Do I have to repeat that is disagree with you totally about emotion. What other "emotional" singer has reduced me to tears as often as Hayley, the first time within ten seconds of first hearing her voice? Except that perhaps I am confusing spiritual with emotional. I would like you to tell me which singer you think is the most emotional you have ever heard, then perhaps I might understand where you are coming from. But for me, that title goes to Hayley. And many others here will tell you the same, she moves them to tears like nobody else.
What she lacks, if anything, in my opinion, is not emotion or spirituality, but physicality and intellectual appeal. She is not particularly danceable or sexy. And she doesn't raise issues to make you think, like for example Bob Dylan. Her music has no weird time signatures, or original musical forms. Her lyrics are not intellectually challenging. But with Hayley, I don't miss those things.

Martin

[nicola]

Hello Martin,

I think there was a big discussion about this somewhere in the distant past where I explained where I stand on the emotion issue. It's just my opinion, and what I personally draw from a performer. Emotion that somebody draws from something is just so subjective it's hardly worth debating.

But for me, personally, (since you asked) it's about an artist telling the story through their performance and vocals more than the words. Charlotte Church is actually *very* good at this, love her or hate her. Christina Aguilera is good at it (listen to 'Hurt' for the best example), Delta Goodrem, Mandy Moore (listen to 'Gardenia'), Celine Dion, Jonathan Ansell, Sarah McLachlan, Alanis Morissette, Keedie, Jade Valerie, Eva Cassidy, LeAnn Rimes, P!nk, , Rob Thomas and Izzy all capture stories within their songs. It is worthy to note that pop singers have a lot more freedom in their vocal style to convery emotion. You may, or may not agree with my choices, and I would guess that there are many you would not, but I don't see how any artist can universally speak to everybody, nor do I expect everyone to hear a singer in the same way that I do. I also won't be able to hear artists in the same way that you do either.

I group Hayley's voice with other singers I know that I find very hard to hear emotion from, so it may be a case of me being unable to hear something subtle in their voice type. If you're curious, this group includes Sissel, Sharon Den Adel (of Within Temptation), Emma Shapplin and Sarah Brightman (when she is in "breathy" mode).

[scoobedoo]

Hi Martin & everyone,

well said that man,I couldn't agree with you more. You hit the nail right on top of the head,

cheers,

Rodders CH CH NZ

[larryhauck]

Nicola,
What color is the sky in your world?

Larry

[Dave]

Hello everyone,

If we aren't careful we'll end up going round in circles over the emotion issue, just like every other time we've discussed it... but let's not get too worked up about it this time.

Nicola, you may remember that I'm on the side of the fence that emotion in the listener counts more than emotion in the singer's voice, which can be and often is often faked (e.g. by singing powerfully). Emotion in the listener, ourself, is one thing that we can be sure is never faked.

Hayley can and often does make her listeners feel emotional with her singing and I will give but one example out of many. Her delicate rendition of "I Know You By Heart" in both Valentines concerts I attended brought tears to my eyes and to the eyes of people around me: the audience was spellbound; it was almost magical. I never thought until last week that I would ever say this, but it was as emotional an experience for me as listening to Eva Cassidy's fabulous version on her CDs.

Now that, for me, is what emotion is all about.

Cheers, Dave

[nicola]

Nicola, you may remember that I'm on the side of the fence that emotion in the listener counts more than emotion in the singer's voice, which can be and often is often faked (e.g. by singing powerfully). Emotion in the listener, ourself, is one thing that we can be sure is never faked.

Isn't that what I was saying? I agree. It depends on the person whether somebody draws emotion from a performance or not. I tend to respond to somebody who sounds as if they mean it or are going through what they are singing. Jonathan Ansell's performance of 'To Where You Are' is probably the most emotionally convincing performance I have seen live.

I'm not sure if I understand this 'fake' issue. Have you never not cried during a film? That's all fake. The acting is fake. Every performance in every musical is "fake". Isn't it called acting? Charlotte's performance of 'Papa Can You Hear Me?' touches me because she sounds as if she is going through the experience. She's acting, but she's believable and it's in that moment that I believe every word she is singing that I can relate to the song through her. I have never lost a loved one, but Christina Aguilera takes me on that journey through 'Hurt'. I do remember from our last discussion that many members from this board don't want an 'actress' in their singing and that's fair enough. I'm not taking that from anyone and I'm glad members here can enjoy Hayley in different ways. Though it would be nice not to be asked what colour my sky is because my approach differs from others. :/ (it's blue, Larry).

I cried during 'I Know You By Heart' too, I am always emotional at live concerts because I appreciate my favourite songs being performed live in front of me. I normally wouldn't have cried for 'To Where You Are' as I hear too often, but Jonathan looked as if he was near sobbing at some points, which started me off. I cried during a Karl Jenkins concert, and a Patrick Doyle concert - and there's no vocal delivery in sight for them.

[pjrcorreia]

I only can speak for my experience of listen to Hayley's Cd's and videos on the Internet.

She is the only singer that I am really looking forward to see in concert in the future!

I find truly amazing when read comments by members (and others) saying that to hear Hayley live is even better! I only think how is that possible?! I hope one day to see/hear that by myself.

I love all her Cd's and I don't think they are boring, I feel so much joy to hear Hayley sing, that I never felt before for another singer in the world!

I don't like Classic music or Opera that much, I hardly can bear to hear someone singing with just a piano playing, and yet Hayley manages to change all that!

I'm not a music specialist or critic, I am a simple person that listen to what I like, and many of those singers that people say that show and sing with emotion doesn't make me feel what listen to Hayley does!

Nowadays, I find it very difficult to hear someone else besides Hayley! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

I only regret the fact that I only heard of Hayley existence when I bought Celtic Woman's DVD in late 2007!

Best wishes,
Paulo Correia

[nicola]

What a lovely post, Paulo.

many of those singers that people say that show and sing with emotion doesn't make me feel what listen to Hayley does!

I don't think anyone has authority as to who sings with emotion and who doesn't, a 'simple' listener, or an expert music critic. A person can only decide for themselves

[chantelle]

I realize that broaching this subject may be akin to detonating a 1,000 lb. can of worms... but I figured it couldn't hurt to humbly voice my opinion. (And if the mods want to start a new thread-- feel free. I just wasn't sure this justified a whole new topic!)

I actually had this thought several weeks ago in relation to the "Vocalists whose voices remind you of Hayley's" thread, but since the conversation seems to be veering again the emotional/unemotional direction, my thoughts are even more relevant (at least, I think so!) now.

So, with that disclaimer out of the way, let me tell you what vocalist reminds me of Hayley-- Tony Bennett.
Now, before you start throwing things at me, hear me out!
I will say right from the start that there is no vocal similarity between Hayley and Tony. 'Nuff said. But emotional similarity? Ah-hah!
But to explain the similarities I hear between Hayley and Tony, I first have to talk a little bit about another singer. Frank Sinatra.

Okay, so most of you aren't jazz fans. And I realize that in most everyone's book, Hayley is "the greatest," bar none. Still, I respectfully submit to you that Frank Sinatra was the greatest interpreter of lyrics, the greatest storyteller, to have ever lived. And if you disagree with my putting him in first place, you surely must agree that he's in the top 5. It's comes off as a bit of a cliche if you aren't a fan of Frank's, but there was no one who could get inside the story of a lyric like he could. He made you believe not only that he had lived the life of the song, but that you were living it as he was singing it to you. Examples? Dig up his "Only the Lonely," "Where Are You," and "In the Wee Small Hours" albums. Exquisite anguish, fraught with undeniable emotion. I could gush for days and days... but I'll come to the point. Frank Sinatra's interpretations are always very complicated, personal, and involved. Unless he is singing a throw-away "rhythm song," every performance is multi-faceted, with layer upon layer of nuance. I repeat-- he tells the story. But he more than tells it-- he lives it.
You might call Sinatra emotionally "deep," (because he is!) but that would imply "shallowness" on the part of other singers, and that is not my intent at all. Still, the points you need to remember is that Sinatra's lyrical interpretation is almost always very complex, and he personally involves himself in the story of the song.

Critics call Tony Bennett a "trite," "saccharine," and, yes, "shallow" singer because he does not inhabit the text of a song in the way Sinatra does. And it's true, the emotional quality of their delivery is vastly different. When Sinatra sings a song, you are aware of the story of the singer's life, and all of the heartbreak/happiness that culminated in the delivery of the song. He is a "method actor," and each song is a saga of its own, with subplots and contexts and allusions, high points and low points, memories and "what ifs." When Bennett sings, it is with passion, but detached passion, wholly committing but also distancing himself so you are aware of the story of the song only, without 'inflicting' (much) of his personality on it. It's as if Sinatra is telling the story in first person, and Bennett in third. Tony hands you the text of a song on a dish, saying, "Here it is, take it or leave it." He is unabashedly sentimental, hearts and flowers and heartbreak, but rarely more than one at the same time. His delivery is simple and straight-forward, without the gushing under-currents that exist in Sinatra's music. He sings almost with the naivete of a young man, whereas Sinatra was always "old," looking back on the experience with the wisdom and richness of years. Tony sings as if he is experiencing (or 'hearing about' since he rarely 'experiences' his own songs) the emotions and situations for the first time.

Are you beginning to catch my drift yet? Without putting any of these singers in a box, I would say that Hayley is more like Tony than she is Frank-- she tells rather than lives the story of a song. She is straight-forward, sentimental, and never 'hides' behind the emotional weight of a song (as Barbra Streisand, for example, is prone to do-- not that it's a bad thing! Just another way of performing).

I admire Tony Bennett, and enjoy his music when I hear it. Still, if given a choice, I would pick the emotionally complex Sinatra over the straight-forward Bennett. Similarly I might prefer another artist over Hayley, but that is not a degradation of Hayley, merely an indication of my personal taste. And yet not even personal taste-- it it something more. It is how my own emotions and intellect react to the singer-- it's what reaches past my ability to isolate and study and define and simply "touches" me. Frank and Tony were two different people, with two different but equally valid ways of interpreting a song. So it's logical to conclude that there are at least two kinds of people in their audience, and in any singer's audience! People who are touched by the emotionally complex, and those who are touched by the emotionally straight-forward.

If anything, this train of thought has increased my respect for Hayley, because I realize how much emotional stability, integrity, and believability it takes to sing the lyrics sincerely at face-value only, rather than adding subtexts and hidden meanings. (Again, that is not to detract from Frank in any way! But I guess since I "relate" better to his way, it seems "easier" to me while the other, less complex way seems more difficult, hence my enhanced respect!)

I guess the grand moral of the story is-- maybe we are being too broad with our terms when we discuss the "emotional" quality of Hayley's voice. What we really should be discussing is not whether or not she has emotion-- that's a given-- but what kind of emotion.

By the way, this is not a plug for Hayley to devote herself to the Great American Songbook! Not at all! I think modern pop (or crossover, if pop sounds too, well, "poppish") is her calling, just as Bennett sang the modern pop of his era. But the artistic principles apply no matter what kind of music is being performed.

[Dave]

Hello Chantelle!

I was fascinated to read your explanation and description of the two types of "emotion" and indeed, I have long suspected that when we discuss it, we (members) often use that same word to mean different things. I am sure, for example, that Nicola and myself do not mean exactly the same thing when we use the word "emotion"... which is not to suggest that either of us is right... or wrong. We may both be right, in our own way.

I've never seen it described before as you do... but I think I agree with it... although i'm not exactly sure why! Suffice it to say that, wonderful singer as Sinatra may be, I have always preferred Tony Bennett who for me, at his best, was the best... bar none. Which fits neatly with my opinion that Hayley is too, in her own unique way.

Cheers, Dave

PS and off topic: why am I posting at 4:45 am UK time? Because I wrecked my computer system at midnight and it's taken me nearly 5 hours to fix it!