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Post by comet on Mar 24, 2009 23:03:05 GMT
Whatever it is that's bugging you , why don't you just spit it out and get it off your chest .
Right here in the open !
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flotsam
New Member 
What you never know won't hurt you, unless... you try
Posts: 32
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Post by flotsam on Mar 26, 2009 21:35:05 GMT
Adverts that say things like, "My jones saved £105 on his car insurance, Mrs Tilson £180. As if I'm going to say, "Wow if Mr Jones and Mrs Tilson (Who could be fraudsters, axe murderers or worse!) saved money then I can". These 'real world' people are actors and it annoys me that they are trying to make us believe they are not. You really don't work at Sainsbury's love, as I've seen you in loads of things.
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Post by grant on Mar 28, 2009 0:32:02 GMT
Members who don't check for typo's before posting!!  |
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Post by Paddy on Mar 28, 2009 2:33:25 GMT
Members who don't check for typos before posting ! I agree!  Glad to help.  Paddy |
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Post by stevemacdonald on Mar 28, 2009 7:19:20 GMT
Members who don't check for typo's before posting!! Hmm, not to play "gotcha" but you did speak of "poetic licen ce" in the "What's in a Voice?" thread. Didn't you intend to spell it "license"?  |
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Post by texassteve on Mar 28, 2009 8:20:52 GMT
Members who don't check for typo's before posting!! Hmm, not to play "gotcha" but you did speak of "poetic licen ce" in the "What's in a Voice?" thread. Didn't you intend to spell it "license"? And why would you prefer the "se" ending? I thought both were equally acceptable both in English and American usage. In old-fashioned English English usage the "ce" ending was used to indicate a noun and the "se" a verb -- for example, "practise" (verb) and "practice" (noun). This practice is not observed that much anymore these days but some sticklers still insist on it. Perhaps only in advise and advice is the convention widely adhered to. Fill in the blank: "A little ___________ is a dangerous thing..." And the "correct" answer is not "knowledge". Some results from Google: Results 1 - 100 of about 1,280,000 for poetic licence Results 1 - 100 of about 402,000 for poetic license "Poetic Licence", is plainly more often used than the "s" version, even in the US. Let's remember that we (or should that be us) Americans don't own the language. I would hazard that most English speaking people outside of the US would find the "s" spelling unacceptable. (Edited to correct typo  |
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Post by Paddy on Mar 28, 2009 8:22:07 GMT
Members who don't check for typo's before posting!! Hmm, not to play "gotcha" but you did speak of "poetic licen ce" in the "What's in a Voice?" thread. Didn't you intend to spell it "license"? Who got whom. I wonder? UK English = 'licence'; US English = 'license'. Hopefully, Derby is still in the UK. |
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Post by texassteve on Mar 28, 2009 8:35:32 GMT
Hmm, not to play "gotcha" but you did speak of "poetic licen ce" in the "What's in a Voice?" thread. Didn't you intend to spell it "license"? Who got whom. I wonder? UK English = 'licence'; US English = 'license'. Hopefully, Derby is still in the UK. Gotcha! Both the "s" and "c" endings are considered acceptable now in nearly all English dialects and the "c" ending used to be used to distinguish the verb from the noun. Still, however you look at it "poetic licence" is "correct". Arguably more correct than the "s" spelling. English is a living language. Once sticklers would have said your use of "hopefully" was wrong, but today it is standard. |
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Post by Paddy on Mar 28, 2009 9:13:37 GMT
Gotcha! Both the "s" and "c" endings are considered acceptable now in nearly all English dialects and the "c" ending used to be used to distinguish the verb from the noun. Still, however you look at it "poetic licence" is "correct". Arguably more correct than the "s" spelling. English is a living language. Once sticklers would have said your use of "hopefully" was wrong, but today it is standard. Says who! 'Depends on which dictionary one consults and whether it has recognised sufficient change of usage to update the respective definitions. I've yet to see a reputable US dictionary that doesn't place licence (Noun) as an 'Also', well down in its definition or a reputable UK dictionary that doesn't specify license similarly. Even Wikipedia says: "The noun license (licence in British spelling)". Perhaps there's a subtle difference between 'used' and 'acceptable'. |
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Post by grant on Mar 28, 2009 10:50:06 GMT
Eeeek!! I didn't expect to start a war of words! Seriously, I accept that certain words may be spelled differently in various parts of the world and I don't expect everyone to have perfect grammar and spell every word they write correctly. I'm sure I haven't/don't - that's why we have 'preview' and 'spell check'. It is the silly typing errors that annoy me - I am not a professional typist myself and often hit the wrong key - for instance, I regularly type Hayley with a small 'h' - we wouldn't get away with that in the workplace, so why should we here? Best wishes Grant |
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Post by texassteve on Mar 28, 2009 11:57:05 GMT
Gotcha! Both the "s" and "c" endings are considered acceptable now in nearly all English dialects and the "c" ending used to be used to distinguish the verb from the noun. Still, however you look at it "poetic licence" is "correct". Arguably more correct than the "s" spelling. English is a living language. Once sticklers would have said your use of "hopefully" was wrong, but today it is standard. Says who! 'Depends on which dictionary one consults and whether it has recognised sufficient change of usage to update the respective definitions. I've yet to see a reputable US dictionary that doesn't place licence (Noun) as an 'Also', well down in its definition or a reputable UK dictionary that doesn't specify license similarly. Even Wikipedia says: "The noun license (licence in British spelling)". Perhaps there's a subtle difference between 'used' and 'acceptable'. Aha! But remember, Paddy, that the dictionaries are out of date by the time they are printed! Seriously, I don't think we are that far apart. The old distinction between the noun and the verb was common in educated use in the early 1900s but I don't think it is seen much in everyday use these days. I agree that the "ce" is the chiefly British usage and "se" the chiefly American usage. The term "acceptable" is different from "used" or "predominent usage". It is even a bit wishy-washy -- "acceptable to whom?", one might ask. I don't think that we essentially disagree. It is, as you say, how one interprets "acceptable". I would say that the fact the dictionaries mention both, even if one is an "also" and "well-down", means that it is "acceptable" even if not common usage. I'd argue -- without necessarily being dogmatic about it -- that anything that is in common usage in any of the major dialects of English should be considered "acceptable"; and the more so in this Internet age when people from so many different places are mixing together. But I certainly don't want to be dogmatic or authoritarian about it. My point is that we shouldn't be too rigid about these matters. Shakespeare spelled or spelt (as he probably would have put it) his own name different ways at different times. My impression is that the distinction between US and British English is becoming blurred and I wouldn't condemn any young person for using either, irrespective of where they were from. I am trying to tread gently here because I know that many people have strong feelings about these matters, but I feel that we should give people more license to use variations. I have seen very angry arguments over such matters as whether one should use the "ise" or "ize" ending in various words. Again I would say both are acceptable.  |
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Post by texassteve on Mar 28, 2009 12:13:26 GMT
Eeeek!! I didn't expect to start a war of words! Seriously, I accept that certain words may be spelled differently in various parts of the world and I don't expect everyone to have perfect grammar and spell every word they write correctly. I'm sure I haven't/don't - that's why we have 'preview' and 'spell check'. It is the silly typing errors that annoy me - I am not a professional typist myself and often hit the wrong key - for instance, I regularly type Hayley with a small 'h' - we wouldn't get away with that in the workplace, so why should we here? Best wishes Grant "It is the silly typing errors that annoy me". Exactly how I understood your comment. (Which is not to say you won't catch me out doing it myself from time to time.) I see a "typo" as different from a spelling or grammatical error, and less acceptable (useful word that!). If a literate person posts "teh", instead of "the", that is a "typo", not a spelling mistake, and proof that they have not proof-read their work. Professional level grammar, punctuation, or spelling is not essential, I believe, on a forum like this, but a minimum level of care, to the point of avoiding glaring errors, can be expected. Then, I suppose, one person's notion of "glaring" may differ from another's... |
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Post by postscript on Mar 28, 2009 14:22:55 GMT
Members who don't check for typo's before posting!! SECONDED Peter S. Who knows he is not perfect but does try. [Some say he's very trying!  ] |
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Post by postscript on Mar 28, 2009 16:33:33 GMT
Hmm, not to play "gotcha" but you did speak of "poetic licen ce" in the "What's in a Voice?" thread. Didn't you intend to spell it "license"? And why would you prefer the "se" ending? I thought both were equally acceptable both in English and American usage. In old-fashioned English English usage the "ce" ending was used to indicate a noun and the "se" a verb -- for example, "practise" (verb) and "practice" (noun). This practice is not observed that much anymore these days but some sticklers still insist on it. Perhaps only in advise and advice is the convention widely adhered to. Fill in the blank: "A little ___________ is a dangerous thing..." And the "correct" answer is not "knowledge". Some results from Google: Results 1 - 100 of about 1,280,000 for poetic licence Results 1 - 100 of about 402,000 for poetic license "Poetic Licence", is plainly more often used than the "s" version, even in the US. Let's remember that we (or should that be us) Americans don't own the language. I would hazard that most English speaking people outside of the US would find the "s" spelling unacceptable. (Edited to correct typo Hi Texas Steve and 'welcome' as I see it is but your third post. I am delighted to find a fellow grammarian. I am reminded of my British friends in America, who are now Americans, when they first came over they were frequently asked the 'correct' spelling to which they could only reply that 'they hadn't got the hang of it yet! , there seemed an expectation they would know through being English. There is in fact much sense in many Americanisations to the spelling of English words (especially the 'z' for 's') but it is too easily forgotten that your Webster's is none other than the opinion of one man, Mr Webster, although developed since by a Board of editors! Webster's to American English (although it actually claims to be 'of the English Language') is what 'Oxford' is or was to the British English language in terms of authority. There are now several alternatives. Collins claims to be 'The authority on Current English' while Chambers simply states it is 'a dictionary'. Apparently they lack confidence and do not wish to presume, users please note! I don't have a version of the Cambridge Dictionary but I do know Cambridge publishes a 'Dictionary of American English', presumably made available in America as a rival to Webster. In so far as English English is concerned the key about Oxford (or my edition of it going back some years now, which is why I have so many dictionaries, they do need updating but I value history so I don't ditch an old dictionary when acquiring a new one) is that it is based on 'historical principles'. Webster's intention was to rationalise. His immediate comparator would be Dr Johnson (the writer of the first English dictionary, as biographed by Boswell) but Johnson was not interested in anyone's opinion, not even his own. He researched the diversity of dialect and then current usage as he encountered it. The situation is further complicated by publishers who all have their own house style (in my early days as a printer so did the more 'established' printers) and as a consequence my own writing has quite gone to pieces. I am long overdue for re-establishing my own house style, having spent my working life following other people's diktats, including working for both British English and American English publishing houses, for which reasons I can now be best summed up as 'Confused of Hertfordshire'! Seriously, getting back to subject (well, did I ever leave it as I had need to get something off my chest!?) I am delighted you highlight the difference between noun and verb spellings in British English, although you Americans don't usually show the difference. In advice and advise however, you raise another angst of mine. In English there is an increasing tendency to describe a person who gives advice as an 'advisor' not as an 'adviser' (correct because the person receiving the advice is an advisee) but too many of the 'also ran' cannot get the hang of spelling the derivative as in (okay, I am being slightly tautological in this example) 'The advice the adviser advises can only be advisory'. Rather like the lawyer who tells you the law is an uncertain animal in its outcomes but he needs you to instruct him to proceed, so that if he loses, it is your fault for giving him the instruction and you still pay him, even though he failed to achieve what you wanted!  Never forget that at any one time fifty percent of all lawyers are wrong--they are the ones who lost their last case! Andrew? What I think we have to ask ourselves is, 'What is the purpose of language?' To communicate. This is why modern English state schools emphasise the creative talent of students, telling them not to worry about their spelling. Speed and the shortage of space determines the corruption of words for texting messages. What we wish to encourage here on this web site, in this forum is freedom to interact, to share and many readers are using English as a second language quite brilliantly. Their grasp of English is far better than anything I have ever achieved in the diverse languages with which I, as a printer handling multi-lingual editions, have ever achieved. The very last thing we want is for people (often very young as well as using English as a second or third language) to be discouraged from writing what they feel. We want them to share their thoughts and feelings. In particular, as has been covered elsewhere, many are not practising musicians and lack technical musical knowledge as well as knowledge of recording etc but there are those here who do have such detailed knowledge and are more than happy to share that knowledge. 'Practising' verb, but the automatic American-biased dictionary on ProBoards does not accept it! I think: 1. Grant had no idea what he might set in motion when he posted his simple complaint of 'lack of care' when posting. 2. I've gone off like a bull in a field, rampaging but with tongue-very-much-in-cheek, having a bit of fun. 3. I think Grant would agree he never had any intention of discouraging those using English as a second language or who are very young. 4. While I am not happy with the concept in some English state schools 'express yourself, forget your grammar', we most certainly do want people to feel free, relaxed and wishing to take part in this forum. 5. Those for whom English is a second language, the automatic dictionary here is America-biased and you are not wrong in letting it over-ride your inclination if you are uncertain and there are diverse idiomatic contradictions in American-British English that can confuse both sides! 6. On spelling, a classic is 'program', as used for computers and 'programme' as used in theatres (theaters). 'Program' is British English and taken over to the US before the Puritans closed English theatres. On the Restoration of the Monarchy the theatres were re-opened but everyone had forgotten how to spell 'program', so they used the French word! 7. Finally while we English can lay claim to a major contribution in world communication through the English language there is one major contributor, Shakespeare, who verbalised nouns and made nouns out of verbs. He played with the English language as no one had done before or since and created much that we take for granted as English grammar. Creativity over-ruled convention, so perhaps those schools who believe in encouraging their students to 'let it all hang out and don't worry about your spelling' are not entirely wrong?! One major contribution was his versifying. The natural flow of English is the quadrameter. He over-ruled it and created the Iambic pentameter. Then of course there is the perennial grammatical howler in the title of 'Who's Who?' Grammatically speaking that should be 'Who's Whom?' as in the colloquial expression 'Whom do we have here?' Hope you have enjoyed. Just sharing a bit of fun and making a play on words. Peter S. |
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Post by grant on Mar 28, 2009 18:59:15 GMT
Hi Peter Great post  I think: 1. Grant had no idea what he might set in motion when he posted his simple complaint of 'lack of care' when posting. Quite right - maybe I should have been more careful with my wording! 3. I think Grant would agree he never had any intention of discouraging those using English as a second language or who are very young. Absolutely not! Most of the members here who manage to post in their second language put the rest of us to shame. Also, if you don't know something may be 'incorrect', how can you put it right? Texas Steve was spot on with his conclusion in an earlier post. I blame Comet for starting this thread in the first place! Best wishes Grant |
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