Audio compression (loudness) of Japanese album

[Dave]

Jun 24, 2008 19:30:31 GMT martindn said:

Jun 23, 2008 22:31:07 GMT @howard said:

But there is one thing, which really is not a big deal but I find it was recorded (I don't know the technical word for it), a bit loud, a little too high. I have to turn the volume down a bit compared with the rest of my CD's. It is noticeable on "I Believe" & several other songs, when Hayley sings strong, not when she hits any high notes.

Do You all know what I mean?

Again it does not take anything away from the greatness of this Hayley Master piece.

I would like to know what others think about that. (Or is it just me)?

...yes, I agree with you about the recording. I too have noticed that I don't enjoy it so much if I play it too loud, and that Hayley's thrilling powerful notes then seem to shriek a bit.. I think this is a testament to the sheer power that Hayley's voice now has. I'm not really sure why we are hearing this effect, it doesn't really sound like clipping or ringing, but with digital music, there are other distortions that can happen. I'm sure there are others here who know more about this than me.

Hi Howard and Martin,

Well spotted, both of you. This effect is something i mentioned to Roger a few days ago in relation to "Time" but in fact, it is present throughout the album. I have been wondering if anyone else would remark on it. I have analysed the audio waveforms and as it might make an interesting subject of its own, so I have started a new thread about it.

The main reasons that several tracks on Hayley Sings Japanese songs sound "loud" are that their dynamic range (range of loudness) has been compressed more than usual for Hayley albums - and the peak audio has been limited too. This means that the quiet parts have been increased in loudness and the loudest sounds have been "squashed down" so they are all at the same loudness (originally they will have been at diifferent loudness levels).

This technique used by the audio engineers is called dynamic compression and limiting - and it is is commonly used for pop albums to make them sound loud all the way through. For some reason that mystifies me, people who buy pop albums are thought to like this - everything sounding loud.

Doing this does have some advantages - in noisy cars for example, you can always hear the quiet notes - because there aren't any! They are all made louder. Digital radio and TV uses it too because they can squeeze more channels in - and again it helps to hear the quiet bits in a noisy environment.

But it reduces the quality of the recording and for me, takes some of the enjoyment out of it when listening at home on a decent sound system where you could have heard even the quietest sounds - if they'd been left alone. The compression and limiting can also sometimes be heard by sensitive ears, perhaps by the sound sounding "strained" at times and this would apply partyicularly to a singer like Hayley whose delicate voice is what she is all about. Some of thet delicacy is undoubtedly lost when too much compression and limiting is applied to what Hayley originally recorded and that may be what the two of you can "hear".

They didn't go completely mad with the Japanese album but I too can 'hear' the additional compression used and I can also measure it. For those who understand these things, here are the mean Peak and RMS (average) sound levels for Pure (which was made to the highest classical music standards) and Japanese Album (which seems to have been made to some kind of pop standard).

In digital music, 0 (zero) decibels is the maximum possible "loudness" without distortion and increasing negative values indicate quieter and quieter sounds.

Peak Sound Levels:

Pure: 0 dBA to -2.7 dBA (depends on which track).
Japanese: 0 to -0.4 dBA (depends on which track).

Mean RMS (average sound level)

Pure: -16.8 dBA
Japanese: -12.1 dBA

Range of mean RMS (average) sound levels on individual tracks:

Pure UK: -14.1 dBA (Pokarekare Ana) to -18.9 dBA (In Trutina)
Japanese: -9.5 dBA (Wings To Fly) to -13.9 dBA (I Am A Thousand Winds).

You can easily see that Japanese album has been recorded significantly "louder" than "Pure" - all Pure tracks are quieter than all Japanese tracks. Treasure is in between.

I have no objection to albums being recorded "loud" at their loudest parts but I don't like the quiet bits being increased artificially after recording by sound engineers - not even for pop albums. Making all the loudest notes equally loud also annoys me. Not all pop albums are made like this and I don't think any more of Hayley's albums should be. Bring back the superlative recording and engineering standards set in Pure, I say!

Cheers, Dave

PS But it's still a pretty cool album!

[stevemacdonald]

Jun 24, 2008 21:51:25 GMT Dave said:

...This technique used by the audio engineers is called dynamic compression and limiting - and it is is commonly used for pop albums to make them sound loud all the way through. ...

It's also due to the emergence/eventual dominance of MP3 players. For an extended treatment of this topic, see this old thread.

[comet]

Thanks Dave,

So the difference is in the thickness of the case

all the spoof about the SHM-CD and they use it to do what a 1970s BASF cassette deck could do,

A wasted opportunity methinks

[Martin]

Hi Dave
An interesting analysis and I must admit I hadn't noticed it until I read Howard's post (perhaps I need a hearing test!!).

One question though - does dynamic compresion also reduce download time and storage space requirement?

Best Wishes
Martin

[Dave]

Hi Martin,

Not really - that's a different kind of compression... data compression (used to make the file size of .mp3 tracks way smaller than the same tracks on a CD). Data compression is needed to make the file sizes small enough to fit lots of music onto portable .mp3 players and that isn't necessarily a bad thing - at 320 kbps it's almost impossible to tell an .mp3 track from the CD original. Always get your downloads at the highest bitrate possible!

Dynamic (range) compression could be used to slightly reduce file sizes but it isn't. It's used on CDs and .mp3s alike to make stuff sound loud - like they do in TV ads. Steve, thanks for the link to that article, which I'd forgotten about, and there are some similar articles out there. Here is an extract from one of them which explains dynamic range compression it better than I can ( sound.westhost.com/compression.htm ):

[Dynamic] Compression is commonly used in the final mix, and this is where things can go seriously wrong - everything is at the same volume, peak to average ratio is minimal, and the resulting sound is almost always worse than it was before the compression was applied. Used correctly, a small amount of compression may be useful with some musical styles, but it is completely unsuited to others. I have several CDs that sound "exciting" at first, but the sameness of having a constant barrage of sound at the same level becomes extremely fatiguing in only a short time... many of the modern CDs are worse than older ones because of the stupid, unnecessary and pointless game of one-upmanship by the record companies, all trying to get the "hottest" CD on the block.

I don't want it to be "hot", I want it to sound the way it should, with real dynamics, soft and loud passages, and things that make me jump! Fortunately, I am not alone, but unfortunately, record companies are still producing material for people with [rubbish] systems - "Make it sound good on a [rubbish] system - we'll sell more". This is rubbish - people with only a boom box don't care that much, otherwise they would strive for something better. Those among us with good or excellent systems should not have to listen to something that was mixed on a pair of near field [high quality] monitors [at] the quality of a transistor radio, and compressed so heavily that it has lost all of the dynamics that make music what it is - or should be!

[from the other thread)

Jun 25, 2008 6:59:39 GMT gra7890 said:

Jan 14, 2008 20:49:04 GMT stevemacdonald said:

Attention audiofiles: You're officially a dying breed! To read all about it click here.

Very interesting article Steve thank you i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif
Dave and Roger,
Do you think there is any mileage in sending a copy of this article with Dave's technical analysis to Hayley and her management team
Graham

Hi Graham, Steve Abbott is a genuine classical music producer of many years standing and he more than anyone will know all about these issues. Hopefully, Japanese album is a one-off (and may have been determined by local Japanese customs) but i certainly intend to mention it to Steve when I next see him. Oh yes! We should remember though that a lot of the general public aren't bothered about such things...

Cheers, Dave

[martindn]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the analysis, that is very interesting. I was wondering at one point was whether it was simply the CD player in my car that was the problem, and was going to give it another playing on my hifi system with a more critical ear in the hope it might sound better, but from what you say that is a folorn hope. I have played it on the hifi a couple of times, and don't remember the problem then, but then I didn't play it particularly loud, it being late at night (and we have neighbours).
Yea, I agree it is annoying to have to be continually tweaking the volume control in the car, as I find necessary on the likes of Music the Spheres, but I would prefer that if it is the price of a more natural sound.

Martin

[Paddy]

Jun 25, 2008 13:57:10 GMT Dave said:

Oh yes! We should remember though that a lot of the general public aren't bothered about such things...
Cheers, Dave

I have to confess that I hadn't noticed the difference, until it was mentioned.

I didn't realise her voice was being 'squashed'!

I just thought Hayley had toned herself down a bit for a different kind of songs.

Or to help them sound more personal?


Paddy

[Richard]

Hello everybody!

This thread is a little too technical for me, but it could explain why Hayley sounds even better live than she does on CD.

Richard

[howard]

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the explanation, I thought it was just me, (so I am glad Martin was able to hear it as well). I noticed it right away without even comparing CD's. I have an excellent CD player, and I keep it at the same volume level (I have it at The Hayley level).

I have not really found distortion. But Dave I agree with you, I like the recording to be Pure and that is what CD's are suppose to be about. Clearity, you are suppose to hear a pin drop.

Maybe this is the way they do it in Japan. I would think when her international CD is produced it will go back to the normal way.

But, this does not take away from the artistic values of this CD...It is just Great!!!!

And Dave thank you again for your research.

My Very Best,
Howard

[howard]

Hi Richard,

I was ready to log out when I reread your post.
As of yet I have not seen Hayley live.
But I have been to performances of other singers where they sound good on the CD. But sound better at a live performance. And I don't believe it is because of the sound system either. I just think a perfomer at a live show has more energy flowing, more excited to be in front of a live audience then some studio.

Again I have not seen Hayley live, I will give one example..The Celtic Woman, I have their live DVD & their studio CD, listening to both I really can't tell which one was recorded in the studio (what I mean is the quality of the live performance could have passed as their studio recording session, their performance is that good). Now when I saw them live in concert, it was way better (and that's even with less singers & musicians), then being on CD or DVD.
Also what helps, the perfomer is right in front of you. So not only is the performer feeling the excitement so is the audience.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Best Regards,
Howard

[martindn]

Hi Howard,

Well, I have been fortunate to see Hayley perform live three times I have two more booked and am about to book a third), and my first introduction to Hayley's music was a live performance.

It used to be, years ago, that live performances by recording artists were often disappointing. They could not reproduce on stage the sound that they had on record. These days, things are different, and the means exists and has done for some time to electronically enhace stage performances.

But a singer who walks onto a stage, as Hayley often does, and starts a concert by singing a cappella has nowhere to hide. She is phenomenal live, as I'm sure you will have gathered from reports on HWI, But with Hayley there is something magical at a live performance. She seems somehow to form a powerful emotional and spiritual connection with her audience, Her music touches your soul, and many of the audience are moved to tears. I have met people who after such a performance, find it had to believe they experienced what they did.
I am constantly amazed that her concerts are still affordable for the likes of me. The first time I heard her, I commented that I was glad I had seen her perform while I could still afford to do so.


Martin

[pjrcorreia]

Jun 27, 2008 21:18:51 GMT martindn said:

Hi Howard,

Well, I have been fortunate to see Hayley perform live three times I have two more booked and am about to book a third), and my first introduction to Hayley's music was a live performance.

It used to be, years ago, that live performances by recording artists were often disappointing. They could not reproduce on stage the sound that they had on record. These days, things are different, and the means exists and has done for some time to electronically enhace stage performances.

But a singer who walks onto a stage, as Hayley often does, and starts a concert by singing a cappella has nowhere to hide. She is phenomenal live, as I'm sure you will have gathered from reports on HWI, But with Hayley there is something magical at a live performance. She seems somehow to form a powerful emotional and spiritual connection with her audience, Her music touches your soul, and many of the audience are moved to tears. I have met people who after such a performance, find it had to believe they experienced what they did.
I am constantly amazed that her concerts are still affordable for the likes of me. The first time I heard her, I commented that I was glad I had seen her perform while I could still afford to do so.


Martin

Hi Martin,

Great post, it makes me want even more to see Hayley performing live, maybe someday I will have such luck.

Greetings from Portugal,
Paulo correia

[grant]

Jun 27, 2008 21:18:51 GMT martindn said:

But a singer who walks onto a stage, as Hayley often does, and starts a concert by singing a cappella has nowhere to hide. She is phenomenal live

Tehe Martin

I just love it when someone comes out with such enthusiastic comments about our Hayley and the beauty of it is they're absolutely true.

I can't remember who's credited with saying it, but Paul Little quotes in his book "Hayley walks out onto a stage and immediately owns it". Every time I see her in concert, I watch for that moment, the moment we first see Hayley, and every time the atmosphere in the hall/theatre/church changes in a split second, it seems that not only does she own the stage, but she 'adopts' the audience as well, and we love her all the more because of it!

Best wishes
Grant

[Karsten]

Hi Dave,

Many thanks for your in-depth coverage of the topic. I didn't understand a word.

Hopefully the post-production of Hayley's new album in 2009 will not use these techniques, at least in such extensive way.

Anyway, to second my previous speakers - 'Hayley live' is a different league, of course.

Cheers, Karsten

[martindn]

Hi Grant,

Thanks for the positive comments about my post, but more importantly

[glow=red,2,300][/glow]Congratulations on your 4000th post.



Martin