Music Therapy

[stevemacdonald]

I think it's awesome that our own Caitlin is planning to pursue the study of Music Therapy after being inspired by Hayley's contributions.

In the interest of launching an extended discussion of music-as-therapy, let me provide an interesting quote from Oliver Sacks:

"Music can lift us out of depression or move us to tears -- it is a remedy, a tonic, orange juice for the ear. But for many of my neurological patients, music is even more -- it can provide access, even when no medication can, to movement, to speech, to life. For them, music is not a luxury, but a necessity."

Some questions to ponder:

- Why do you think music works as it does on people's minds and emotions?
- What void does music alone fill and why does it seem to work miracles in certain cases?
- Could you live without music?
- Has music ever been a 'magic bullet' that eliminated a bad mood?
- Does music make you happy?
- Has it ever inspired you to great accomplishments?
- If you had to pick between a life that required listening to music all day long or never at all, which would you choose?
- Would too much uplifting music have the opposite effect over time?

[Caitlin]

Good questions Steve. My aunt (who was planning to be a music therapist and who I actually learned about music therapy from) gave me a couple books over Christmas and they've got some of the more techinical answers in them But I'll let everyone answer to see what they come up with.

As for the other questions you've asked. No, I could not live without music - both listening and participating in. Music is my way of life.
I cannot tell you how many times music has helped cure a bad mood. I like to put on really cheery, upbeat music and just dance around and sing at full volume when I'm in a bad mood. Not only does it get me up and moving, but it stops me from concentrating on my bad mood and it vanishes.

Yes, music makes me happy.

I wouldn't say music has inspired me to GREAT accomplishments, but it has inspired me in countless ways. One of which includes choreographing dances to pieces of interesting music. Music has made me dance in St. James Park for three hours one day, even through all the people staring, because I was inspired. It's inspired me to help people, and to bring people together.

I would listen to music all day long. No questions asked. Whenever I get the chance to have music on or off it's always on.

I don't believe it would have to opposite effect over time, but it would also depend on the person, the setting, and what kind of uplifting music it is.

<3 Caitlin

[milewalker]

Hello all,

One observation occurs to me immediately - we are exposed to a lot of music in our life, and certain types of music do seem to be associated with certain events. For example, a certain type of music is played at a funeral. A somewhat different type is played at a wedding, and yet another at the reception for that wedding. Perhaps we associate a particular type of music with an event which happens to have deep emotional significance for us and simply relive the feeling when we heard it.

This being said, throughout history, the primary purpose of music does indeed seem to be the inculcation of a particular mood. A march for example to make us more willing to fight, a lullaby to put us to sleep, a romantic song to encourage us to make more people......

I have seen a number of studies about this over the years, but they always leave the biggest question of all unanswered. Are different types of music intrinsically sad, or happy, or uplifting, or is that we hear the music and associate it with the mood of places where we once heard similar music. There seems to be evidence for both This historic perspective seems to be cross-cultural enough, so I personally believe that there are some intrinsic effects to music - certainly fast music tends to be enervating, and slower music more peaceful.

I dont think I could live without music - though music could mean many things. Our ancestors banged rocks

I am not sure exactly what you mean by the opposite of uplifting - for one thing I suspect that different people would define "uplifting" differently and therefore produce somewhat different answers. However, I think we would rather quickly become desensitized to anything played for too long.

Jon

[grant]

Hello everyone

Music has certainly had a very significant effect on my life, although I am not the sort of peson that has to have music playing in the background all the time, like some of my friends.

I clearly remember, as a young teenager, listening to some of the pirate radio stations with my friends and taping songs onto our reel to reel tape recorders (Mine was a Dansette Consort which cost £17!)

My favourites, even then, were "the prettiest" girls like Marianne Faithfull, Kathy Kirby (there must have been others!) I was also very keen on the 'protest' singers Bob Dylan, Joan Baez etc.

I didn't really start following anyone until much later when my group of friends included a number of John Denver fans and I attended several 'Denver Day' sing song/get togethers in Highgate and actually got to see John in concert 5 times although I never actually got to meet him.

After his death, I found (and still do) it very hard to listen to his music, even though I still have most of his albums. It was during this time too, that I became interested in classical music as several people I travelled with at the time would have 'The New' Classic FM station on in the car and I found the music quite relaxing to drive to.

It was through Classic FM that I discovered Hayley and fell in love with voice. Over the year that followed; I found out as much as I could about her and her music and I eventually booked that first concert in September 2005. What puzzles me to this day is the realisation, as I travelled down to London on the morning of the concert, that I wasn't just going to see Hayley in concert, I was going also with the intention of meeting her!

What has happened since has had a more profound affect on my life than any other event that I can think of. I have allowed myself to become much more aware of what is happening around me; I have realised that my life, insignificant as it is in the measure of things, can make a difference and I am working to make it so.

Was this all down to Hayley? No, I'm sure it wasn't although Hayley's music and eventually Hayley herself played a very significant part. I put it down to the fact that I was at a stage in my life where I needed some direction (although I probably didn't know it) and Hayley and her music was the catalyst.

Maybe there have been other times in my life where similar events have been triggered in a similar way but that I just didn't recognise.

Could I live without music? I don't think I could and, if I go a day without hearing Hayley's voice, I'm very aware that something is missing.

I think I'll leave it there.

Best wishes
Grant

[Jeff]

That's a strange coincidence, Grant because I came to Hayley via John Denver as well. "Windsong" has always been one of my favourites, especially when I'm out walking in the country or on the beach.

[postscript]

Why do you think music works as it does on people's minds and emotions?

Very interesting this Steve. To me, music is the highest of all the arts, it is the nearest art to the spiritual. It is both a highly demanding art and also a very simple art. It covers the full gamut of the human state.

This is well expressed by Hayley in that cine interview. 'A life is not enough to understand what a voice can do'--I paraphrase from memory. That is expressing at its simplest the depth and diversity of just one aspect of music from someone who not only knows within herself more than all of use have probably ever garnered but knows there is still much more for her to learn.

It is a sound that humbles the body in acknowledgment of the spirit we push behind us too often in our everyday world of supposed essential other things. It arouses the spirit to reclaim its mastery over the body its very existence should command.

In her 'listening to the wind' since birth our Hayley has that strongly within her, her spirit moves her for it has more command than it does in most of us. Her thoughts that she needs to be 'a bit tougher', to paraphrase again from her autobiography, hopefully will not push that command of her spirit deeper within her, away from its natural surface mastery but at the same time she has so much to offer she must be pragmatic in being a survivor for the longer term.

Before taking your points in turn, let me add a personal admission of complete faux pas. Just before there was a discussion about asking for a Hayley piece on Classicfm, I too, about two or three weeks before had made a request but messed my chat up and understandably from Classicfm's point of view they didn't take it. Ironically, one or two days later, someone else requested Hayley and that was played.

Essentially my conversation was saying that while I had been under the care of two consultant psychologists I had changed their therapy disks for Hayley's music. This is why I both believe and support music therapy. I can say it works and should be regarded as a serious therapy method.

However, in so much of medicine, especially when dealing with the mind and moods, there are no absolutes. I have finally agreed to take the pharmaceutical root, which I have been resisting, as that method can cause massive mood swings but I have to confess that we do now seem to have the right course if not quite yet the right dose!

So, to the points you raise.
What void does music alone fill and why does it seem to work miracles in certain cases? I think, and here we have to be sensitive to the arena into which this is leading us, is it a lack of spiritual awareness? That benefit may be perceived in those whom one might not regard as having the 'awareness' of such concepts, proving the point the reality is there even if the owner of the body is not mentally aware of the concept? It is a response to something that is a part of us regardless of conscious awareness?

- Could you live without music? I think there are two parts to this: having known music can one live without it? Yes and no. If one has the ability to hear, arguably, 'no'. If one becomes as 'deaf as a post', 'yes' because something lives in one's head. There is a story others may be as aware as I, as I suspect i heard it on Classicfm.

I think most of us are aware that Beethoven composed his last symphony in a state of complete deafness. He never heard it with his ears. In fact the story is told that on completion of its first performance, Beethoven just stood there looking at the orchestra and began to cry. He thought he had failed. Suddenly the first violinist realised what the problem was, got up, walked over to Beethoven and turned him round. Only then did he realise he was receiving a standing ovation. He probably never heard with his ears the symphony he had just conducted.

If someone can hear that detail of music in their head (and we have often talked about Hayley's reported ability to be 'pitch perfect' (what ever that is as there are many interpretations as to what is meant by that phrase--probably better on another thread)) there is no reason to suppose that while they may not be able to articulate the sensation, 'deaf-mutes' can also hear in their heads. More particularly, when one sense is missing others become more acute, so maybe vibrations physical or through the air, or that 'other sensory perception' may enable people to experience what we would call 'music'.


- Has music ever been a 'magic bullet' that eliminated a bad mood? May I expand on this to say, 'change'? Yes, but elevation is not necessarily the only response and sometimes in the sense of atonement, regret, a sense of sadness is not necessarily a negative emotion. To be part of life, in proper measure, we need to be able to be comfortable with sadness, as in remembrance of a passed-on friend or relative. Sadness in recognition of a loss and in facing up to it, or in recalling past happy times that cannot be again, sadness is not necessarily a negative experience.

- Does music make you happy? As above, not necessarily but that is life and music covers the gamut of life, that is its magnificence.

- Has it ever inspired you to great accomplishments? To try, yes, but to achieve? Well, no one's recognised it yet!

- If you had to pick between a life that required listening to music all day long or never at all, which would you choose? For those who can hear there is always music, if it is only the wind in the trees--see again that interview with Hayley.

- Would too much uplifting music have the opposite effect over time? Uplifting music can only be uplifting if there is other music that is not uplifting? Yes, one can have too much of a good thing. To have too much of a good thing would be to be satiated with ecstasy (in the 'heavenly' meaning of 'ecstasy'). This then leads us into the philosophical where we have to be careful of diverse views that are strongly held. Simply, the human condition is not able to contain absolute ecstasy and in any case what actually do we mean by it? Simply, I would say, to avoid controversy, 'to be content and at home with the music of the spheres'.

Well you provoked me to respond rather more fully than I intended, I was just popping in to keep tabs! Food for thought and response, anyone? I'm sure Richard has something to say from his hospice visiting experiences and Roger from his 'other life' as a songwriter.

Peter S.

[postscript]

Grant.

Your post 3, thank you for that wonderful sharing of a bit of you.

Peter S.

[milewalker]

jeff said:

That's a strange coincidence, Grant because I came to Hayley via John Denver as well. "Windsong" has always been one of my favourites, especially when I'm out walking in the country or on the beach.

I cant say I came directly to Hayley through JD - it is however quite striking - and probably not off-topic at all - to note that JD was also the first singer that I actually "followed" as well. There have been only four all told - Hayley being the most recent.

I suppose that I should probably follow up on several hints Roger has made and start a JD thread.

Jon

[gra7890]

Hi Grant and Jeff,
My music background is somewhat similar. I was very active in my teens in the 60's continuing into the 70's then I lost interest, until John Denver came along. I saw him a couple of times but then like Grant did not continue after the air crash. About the same time my favourite golfer 'Payne Stewart' was also lost to a plane crash. That was a bad time for me
Mens golf has not been quite the same since, although I still enjoy it . However last year having watched a fair bit of Ladies Golf on the 'Golf Channel' and with the Ladies Open at St Andrews for the first time I decided to go and was captivated by Lorena Ochoa.
Meanwhile music came back to me when I discovered Hayley and a bit latter HWI !
Now Hayley and her music is very important to me and I can also see parallels between Hayley and Lorena, although they are in completely different fields.
Yes Grant, I also feel a day is 'not complete' unless I have some Hayley therapy
Best Wishes,

Graham

[martindn]

PS,

Thanks for the wonderful post #5. Your thoughts are very similar to my own. I too play music in my head a lot. These days much of it is Hayley's music, but not exclusively. But I would still rather be blind than deaf if I had to choose. There is just too much wonderful music out there to think that life would be tolerable without it.

Among other things, music is the proof that God loves us. It is there for our enjoyment. It serves no other purpose. An understanding of music in its spiritual dimension (it has others, physical, intellectual) enhances our own spritual awareness and points us ultimately at God (if it is the right sort of spirituality, there are others of course).

One's spiritual awareness is enhanced by music. Even those who have no spiritual awareness, and who struggle to rationalise the effect that music has on them, are still affected. spiritual awareness can come by trying to understand the reasons for that.

Those that try to suppress their spirituality, and they are many, perhaps are a bit afraid of music that moves them. They would rather it didn't have that effect, since it forces them to admit that there is something outside of their rationalisation of themselves that they can't explain. One day, one can hope, they might understand that that very thing is the key to life itself!

I think Hayley's music gives us a vivid insight into that world of spirituality. This is turn tells us a lot about Hayley herself, although I sometimes wonder how aware she is of the effect her music has, or of her own spirituality. To me, her music is so compelling that I could not possibly deny or fight it, but I would not want to anyway. She has helped me to understand and develop my own spiritual awareness, and for that I owe her thanks.

Martin

[milewalker]

martindn said:

PS,

Thanks for the wonderful post #5. Your thoughts are very similar to my own. I too play music in my head a lot. These days much of it is Hayley's music, but not exclusively. But I would still rather be blind than deaf if I had to choose. There is just too much wonderful music out there to think that life would be tolerable without it.

Among other things, music is the proof that God loves us. It is there for our enjoyment. It serves no other purpose. An understanding of music in its spiritual dimension (it has others, physical, intellectual) enhances our own spritual awareness and points us ultimately at God (if it is the right sort of spirituality, there are others of course).

One's spiritual awareness is enhanced by music. Even those who have no spiritual awareness, and who struggle to rationalise the effect that music has on them, are still affected. spiritual awareness can come by trying to understand the reasons for that.

Those that try to suppress their spirituality, and they are many, perhaps are a bit afraid of music that moves them. They would rather it didn't have that effect, since it forces them to admit that there is something outside of their rationalisation of themselves that they can't explain. One day, one can hope, they might understand that that very thing is the key to life itself!

I think Hayley's music gives us a vivid insight into that world of spirituality. This is turn tells us a lot about Hayley herself, although I sometimes wonder how aware she is of the effect her music has, or of her own spirituality. To me, her music is so compelling that I could not possibly deny or fight it, but I would not want to anyway. She has helped me to understand and develop my own spiritual awareness, and for that I owe her thanks.

Martin

Hi Martin,

I am not going to comment directly on your post for obvious reasons....however, it does beg a question - which once again is a bit peripheral, but I dont think too far off the topic of what we are discussing here.

If the things you say about spirituality and the effect of Hayley's voice concerning this are universally true why isnt she better known in the "Bible belt" of the US? There are more devoutly practising Christians in the US (if church attendance is any indication) than there are people in the UK. It isnt as though she hasnt been given some exposure there - think two appearances on the Hour of Power for starters.

Jon

[postscript]

martindn said:

PS,

Thanks for the wonderful post #5... But I would still rather be blind than deaf if I had to choose.

An interesting response which prompts me to risk presuming. How much have you seen, Martin? I've stood on the edge of Niagara Falls; dined in the revolving restaurant above them as the light slid away from the prairie view like a rosé wine sliding off the edge of a plate; watched the sun rise in the middle of Monument Valley; stood on the edge of the Grand Canyon; experienced why North-east Canada is called 'New France', as further south in America it is called 'New England'; followed the smoky mountains ridgeway; seen the blue-green grass of Kentucky and the black hills of Dakota...

With the loss of sound one may perhaps hear in one's head, lip read, or communicate through the written word. My mother was blind through her last years and I recall how much she appreciated things when I was driving. I talked to her as if I were on an advanced driving test but instead of talking about the traffic as I would have done with a policeman sitting next to me, I described the view we were passing through: what the cows were doing in the fields; not just that there were cows in the fields; the architecture of the buildings etc., what the people on the street were doing, such as children playing 'catch' on the pavement. I know how much describing our drives meant to her.

Particularly having heard, I think we can contain music in our heads (as with Beethoven) but the loss of sight is not just a matter of someone describing, it is a question of who is describing and how much they themselves are seeing through their eyes. As Conan Doyle had Sherlock Holmes say so often to Doctor Watson: 'You have seen but you have not observed!'
...
Those that try to suppress their spirituality, and they are many, perhaps are a bit afraid of music that moves them. Yes, I think fear of both experiencing emotion and perhaps more of showing emotion makes them uncomfortable and they fear to address the reason why.

..

I think Hayley's music gives us a vivid insight into that world of spirituality. This in turn tells us a lot about Hayley herself, although I sometimes wonder how aware she is of the effect her music has, or of her own spirituality.

I think she is well aware of it although she would not, through modesty, call it 'spirituality'. I think too that this is where Stephany's translation of that interview is so important to us. In that interview we hear the artist talking to us and explaining herself. In the autobiography she is the girl, the person, talking about her life. Two totally different aspects of the same person and important in their different ways to understand her.

This difference is important. In the autobiography she opens herself up, a little, to her private world but those aspects of her must necessarily be private. The interview opened up 'the soul' of the artist. That is a different aspect, deserves more scrutiny and in scrutinising we do not intrude upon the private person, we are examining the public persona of the artist. Two different aspects which should be treated differently: the private life, awareness but not to intrude or examine; the public life is the fascination for and to understand the approach, technique and interpretation of the artist and why she is so motivated. That is not personal intrusion.

Yonks away from where she is as a performer, I know how you can affect an audience and feel that audience's mood. This is why, were it not so expensive, it would be interesting to see Hayley in a run of performances as in September. To perform as she does she has to have a rapport with each audience and on each night each performance is different because you sense the audience's mood. You have to, to get the length of your 'pregnant pauses' right.

Most amateurs only run for three or four nights or perhaps a week if it is a musical, that is the limit of their audience appeal, balancing theatre size with local interest. I've experienced runs of three weeks. Each evening you view the audience as it begins to settle, through the curtain or side wall peep hole, assessing how they are likely to respond. From the moment you are on stage you are not only playing your role but paying attention to how the audience is responding to you, so you adapt your performance to their perception of how they are receiving the play.

This is why some actors are no use at public speaking and why some excellent public speakers are no good as actors. Being on stage as a character is nothing like standing up in public and speaking as yourself. They are two totally different experiences and you treat the audience in two totally different ways. Not every professional is comfortable in both scenarios, in the same way that actors are biased to drama or comedy, few can handle both well. So, being an actor on stage is totally different from public speaking as yourself.

...
She has helped me to understand and develop my own spiritual awareness, and for that I owe her thanks. This is why I raised the question as to whether loss of one medium or the other is less or more a tragedy. To lose either is without a doubt tragic but to rate them in an order of tragedy I think is difficult. It might be interesting to know how the insurance companies view this in terms of accident statistics and compensation awards?

Having experienced through sight the things I listed above these have been equally as moving as any kind of music. I stood in wonderment at the ages that had passed, the development of civilisation over those years, how recently since their creation man has only just discovered these wonders. To be in the midst of Monument Valley in total silence, then to hear suddenly, from no knowns source, a bird sing and seeing the sun rise behind the buttes one could so easily understand how early man had worshipped the sun in his awe at such magnificence.

Martin

I close here, only because the system will not let me do otherwise--'do more than post a quotation' and of course I have responded to you within your own post...

Peter S.

[postscript]

milewalker said:

martindn said:

PS,

Hi Martin,

I am not going to comment directly on your post for obvious reasons....however, it does beg a question - which once again is a bit peripheral, but I dont think too far off the topic of what we are discussing here.

If the things you say about spirituality and the effect of Hayley's voice concerning this are universally true why isnt she better known in the "Bible belt" of the US? There are more devoutly practising Christians in the US (if church attendance is any indication) than there are people in the UK. It isnt as though she hasnt been given some exposure there - think two appearances on the Hour of Power for starters.

Jon

Hi Jon (Milewalker).

I don't think we can pursue the path you are opening up. Both Martin and I used the term 'spirituality' as it had been used earlier and because it is nonspecific of defined beliefs. What i think you are leading into is religiosity which is a 'no no' here.

There is another aspect and that I think is a cultural one. This is an area where I have only passed through and many years ago, so I must leave the arena to those who are more qualified to comment than I.

Peter S.

[milewalker]

Hi Peter,

It was Martin above who invoked the name of God in a sense which I took to be something of a direct statement of faith. There was absolutely nothing about my question which states anything of that nature

If this was the path I was trying to pursue there are about a hundred other questions I could have asked which would have been much more direct. The point I was trying to make was that I see no empirical evidence that the primary appeal of Hayley is particularly "spiritual" at all. This doesnt mean that it isnt the case - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. However, from a purely logical viewpoint, if the premise is true, one should be able to infer other consequences of that. I chose to ask this question simply because this is a big demographic which Hayley should be reaching given the premise and for the main part has not.

It is entirely possible that the difference in America is indeed cultural. In fact I suspect that this is actually the case. However if you say this, arent you saying that culture is the predominant effect, and any spiritual effect which might be occurring is actually therefore secondary?

-------------
Let me put it this way - it is quite clear that the music of Hayley - and probably most other music as well - has the potential of having a very powerful emotional impact on some people. What is very unclear to me is exactly what about this makes it spiritual in the sense I understand the term.

I have two cats - who are clearly capable of experiencing quite a wide range of emotions. They can be happy, sad, and angry. They are capable of love. While I cannot speak to the effect that music may have on them, there are certainly other external forces which can affect their internal emotional state in some way analogous to the human experience. I am pretty sure that they can understand the concept of "beauty" in some sense as well. I dont think this is what you had in mind when you used the term spiritual - but I am having a problem separating the two from the way that this is being expressed.

I could be wrong. If this is out of line, I am confident that the mods will inform us

Jon

[milewalker]

Hi Martin,

In your post above you also stated that "music is the proof that God loves us. It is there for our enjoyment. It serves no other purpose".

This statement seems to run counter to the facts. A lot of different cultures which we would not ordinarily associate with being "spiritual" - say for example the former Soviet Union - not only had music, but very good music at times. In fact, historically I think, most music has been written to get people to do something - marches have been written to make us feel more "martial".

In ancient times, the very beginnigs of music seem to have had their basis in ceremonies which established tribal identity. Over the course of history, I suspect that there has been much more music composed for reasons we would now consider "patriotic" than for any other reason.

In modern times, most music has been created to provide an income for the artist who wrote and performed it. The fact that people enjoyed it may provide some measure of how well they succeeded - but I dont think it can be said to be the primary purpose.

Whether or not any of this is "spritual" or "uplifting" depends on how one defines those words of course, but it is fairly clear that historically, most music was not written primarily with our "enjoyment" in mind except perhaps in a purely commercial sense.

Jon