Music Therapy

[postscript]

Hi Jon.

Your post 13, amplifying your earlier post on this subject certainly helps. I am sorry if (and this could be entirely my fault) I misinterpreted. I could see the debate delving into religion and faith, whereas I saw the term 'spirituality' as an all-embracing and particularly nondenominational term. In the 'Bible Belt' there are certain aspects of Christianity with which other Christians would not wish to claim identity, to an extent that in some aspects of 'orthodoxy', however defined, some would claim those adherents as totally lacking in spiritual awareness.

I think I'll employ my usual method by going to 'an' authority for a definition. In this case I will use Webster's, out of respect for your background, where one finds the simplicity of 'that which belongs to the church or an ecclesiastic; as opposed to temporality'. In other words it appertains to a state specifically undefined other than that it is 'not of the body' or of a 'physical' manifestation.

[At this point I will put in an edit to try and respond to Dave's later expressed concern that we are drifitng off topic and say that perhaps the term 'higher consciousness' could replace [spirituality', or pick up on Hayley's own term in her autobiography of an 'out of body' experience. This term has been used in medical 'near death' experiences.]

While a 'higher consciousness' experience can have a physical effect I would contest that 'emotion' may result from a 'higher consciousness' experience, or inculcate one, but generally emotion is a physical attribute of body chemistry. Here we are in danger of crossing a diversity of disciplines: psychology, parapsychology, psychiatry etc in which I am certainly not qualified to offer a view.

One could counter that music 'plays' upon the body like any physical drug--after all the deprivation of the senses has physical and mental affects so why not its opposite, the exhilaration of the senses? The whole subject we are debating becomes no more than a chance circumstance of physical manifestations with mind-altering properties dependent upon the subject/recipient. Is the concept of 'higher consciousness' no more than a play upon the senses that affect the mind like any other substance such as coffee, wine or a stronger drug?

One could go so far as to say that Man kids himself into the 'higher consciousness' concept as a ploy to support his reluctance to accept it is in fact a material world of chance evolution and he is of no more significance in it than an ant: that it is Man that created the concept of 'higher beings or values' out of fear of being alone?

While one may play semantics over the difference between what we feel when we consider something moves our 'higher consciousness', as opposed to simply 'teasing our senses', the simplicity is that there is a state of being, or a state of 'awareness' that something moves us on a level of 'higher than normal consciousness', unlike any other sensation to which we may be moved.

Whether that is indeed 'beyond the body', or merely a definition of convenience, is perhaps interesting but not for us here?

Regarding 'cultural', then this is a matter of interpretation influenced by the glass/'culture' through which the definition is viewed.

As regards your reply 14, there is nothing to which one can take exception other than the amount you leave out .

At this point I am going to move my argument to my new 'The Nature of Creativity' thread HERE

Peter S

[Dave]

Hi Peter and Jon,

I fear that we are drifting off topic for the thread title.

Music Therapy is widely accepted as being a healthcare profession supplementary to medicine and is not generally seen as being a spiritual or religious profession. It may or may not have a spiritual/religious spin-off but that is not its primary aim yet it seems to have taken over the thread. The problem may simply be the word 'spiritual' which often has religious connotations; perhaps there is a 'better' word we can use?

Cheers, Dave

[postscript]

dave said:

Hi Peter and Jon,

I fear that we are drifting off topic for the thread title.

Music Therapy is widely accepted as being a healthcare profession supplementary to medicine and is not generally seen as being a spiritual or religious profession. It may or may not have a spiritual/religious spin-off but that is not its primary aim yet it seems to have taken over the thread.

We need to drift back towards the topic, please.

Cheers, Dave

Hi Dave.

Your post 16 was posted after reading my post 15 but before I had amended it. Does the amendment help to guide us back on topic or would you like me to create a new thread on 'the nature of creativity'?

Peter S.

[Dave]

Hi Peter, I've amended mine too - I suspect now that the problem may simply be the word "spiritual", which can mean different things to different people.

All I'm asking is that we stick to "Music Therapy" the profession and its generally accepted benefits and try not to drift off into religious matters via the route of spirituality (easily done!). Creativity in music? It should be OK but we won't know until we read it...

Cheers, Dave

[postscript]

Hi All.

Following Dave's reminder I have gone back to the original post by Steve HEREand in reading the whole thread I realise I am at fault for introducing 'spirituality'.

I'll have a mull about replacing that word in what I can alter without making nonsense of the whole and develop what I was developing under the 'The Nature of Creativity' thread.

Sorry Steve and Jon for the digression but it has opened up another field which I feel sure will arouse members' interest.

However, in following Dave's plea I came across the following from The American Music Therapy Association, Inc.

Music Therapy is an established healthcare profession that uses music to address physical, emotional, cognitive, and social needs of individuals of all ages. Music therapy improves the quality of life for persons who are well and meets the needs of children and adults with disabilities or illnesses. Music therapy interventions can be designed to:

• promote wellness
  
• manage stress
  
• alleviate pain
  
• express feelings
  
• enhance memory
  
• improve communication
  
• promote physical rehabilitation
  

]
Research in music therapy supports its effectiveness in a wide variety of healthcare and educational settings. For further information, please explore the rest of this site including the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) page.

Peter S.

[postscript]

dave said:

Hi Peter, I've amended mine too - I suspect now that the problem may simply be the word "spiritual", which can mean different things to different people.

All I'm asking is that we stick to "Music Therapy" the profession and its generally accepted benefits and try not to drift off into religious matters via the route of spirituality (easily done!). Creativity in music? It should be OK but we won't know until we read it...

Cheers, Dave

Hi Dave.

Hopefully you can now feel comfortable with the amendments I have now made and the new thread I have started.

Bringing us fully back to topic in all this reviewing and re-reading, I have come across the following which refers back to one of Jon's or Steve's posts on mood (to be succinct) but which doesn't seem to have been an aspect raised so far.

'I've lifted this from a web text simply to save typing an extract from one of the tomes ('Analysing Harmony') I keep beside me and which says more or less the same thing.

Each major key uses a different set of notes (its major scale). In each major scale, however, the notes are arranged in the same major scale pattern and build the same types of chords that have the same relationships with each other.

So music that is in, for example, C major, will not sound significantly different from music that is in, say, D major. But music that is in D minor will have a different quality, because the notes in the minor scale follow a different pattern and so have different relationships with each other.

Music in minor keys has a different sound and emotional feel, and develops differently harmonically. So you can't, for example, transpose a piece from C major to D minor (or even to C minor) without changing it a great deal.

Music that is in a minor key is sometimes described as sounding more solemn, sad, mysterious, or ominous than music that is in a major key.'

This would perhaps have some relevance to the other quotation I give later that in the early days of musical therapy it was found that musicians needed training in how to assess what to play. It was not a question simply of 'playing music'. This can then lead us to consider how complicated and serious music therapy can be.

One might assume people would want 'happy' music. But if used as a therapy, may it not be important to help them cope with grief or other emotion by confronting them with sombre music?

Possibly in this thread mention has been made that of the various music at that time tested, Hayley's voice had the most profound effect. But what was she singing? Was the effect that of her voice or was it in conjunction with the nature of what music she was singing, i.e., the key she was singing in?

Peter S

[milewalker]

dave said:

Hi Peter and Jon,

I fear that we are drifting off topic for the thread title.

Music Therapy is widely accepted as being a healthcare profession supplementary to medicine and is not generally seen as being a spiritual or religious profession. It may or may not have a spiritual/religious spin-off but that is not its primary aim yet it seems to have taken over the thread. The problem may simply be the word 'spiritual' which often has religious connotations; perhaps there is a 'better' word we can use?

Cheers, Dave

Good morning Dave!

I understand what you mean.. However, the first two questions Steve asked in his opening post were:

Why do you think music works as it does on people's minds and emotions?
- What void does music alone fill and why does it seem to work miracles in certain cases?

Not "how", you see, but "why". The word "miracle" also tends to mean "something unexplained which is outside the settled order of nature" The issue doesnt lie in the definition of "spirituality" so much as in how one applies that directly to those questions.

The problem is that there are two divergent world views in play here - and logically they are going to produce two divergent responses to those questions - but as they are asked in the opening post, how is trying to answer them off-topic? It was, in my opinion those two questions which produced this off-shoot of the discussion.

In theory, if you wanted to avoid this type of discussion on this thread, it might have been better if those two questions had been moderated in the first place. (I would not have done so btw) However, as those questions are still there to be answered, I dont think that trying to answer them in either way is off topic at all.

Martin above was giving his honest answer to those questions. My response to him was designed to merely point out some diificulties I saw with those arguments as they were expressed.

I took the term "spirituality" to mean exactly what the Webster definition given by Peter above says. The problem is that if it comes from a church or is ecclesiastic, that means that, however vague, it still is "religious" in the sense that we nomally use the term - it containst the a priori assumption that we have a soul. Any answer to a question like "What is creativity" is likely going to be subject to the same issue because it is either innate, or a gift depending on the viewpoint of the person answering.

Jon

[martindn]

Well, I've read the above, and I have been quiet for a bit simply because I felt we were drifting off topic. But as it happened Peter stepped into the breach, and I agree with most of what he says.
It is difficult to to explain "spirituality" to those who have no spiritual awareness, which is a rationalisation of that part of us that exists beyond the body. Those with no spiritual awareness either no not know, or will not admit that such a part of them exists. It is a bit like trying to explain sight to a blind person, or Hayley's music to a deaf one.
I had not intended to bring religion into it, but those of us with faith find it hard to separate that from our thoughts. And in the end, since that faith is part of us, why should we, and how could we remain honest if we did?
In that context music therapy is an attempt to heal the whole person, not just the physical and mental parts. Music's spiritual dimension can therefore be an important part of that treatment.

Martin

[comet]

postscript said:

One could go so far as to say that Man kids himself into the 'higher consciousness' concept as a ploy to support his reluctance to accept it is in fact a material world of chance evolution and he is of no more significance in it than an ant: that it is Man that created the concept of 'higher beings or values' out of fear of being alone?


Peter S

Whew !

I could have sworn I read that differently, yesterday,
In a world that has a place of worship in almost every village or town. Where we all grew up being informed of a belief in a higher being. With all our rituals of birth, marriage and death being based on these beliefs. It takes a lot of thinking to step away from the larger group and even consider the possibility that we have been lied to all our lives and admit that we are simply a more intelligent and destructive a species than the ant. I wonder if that could be true ?

[Martin]

I recall Hayley visiting a musical therapy class in New York some time ago for handicapped children. She was particularly interested and moved by the visit which I recollect was shown here on the Forum as a video link.

Martin

[Stephany]

martin said:

I recall Hayley visiting a musical therapy class in New York some time ago for handicapped children. She was particularly interested and moved by the visit which I recollect was shown here on the Forum as a video link.

The video to which you refer, Martin, is HERE.

Stephany

[postscript]

comet said:

postscript said:

One could go so far as to say that Man kids himself into the 'higher consciousness' concept as a ploy to support his reluctance to accept it is in fact a material world of chance evolution and he is of no more significance in it than an ant: that it is Man that created the concept of 'higher beings or values' out of fear of being alone?


Peter S

Whew !

I could have sworn I read that differently, yesterday,
In a world that has a place of worship in almost every village or town. Where we all grew up being informed of a belief in a higher being. With all our rituals of birth, marriage and death being based on these beliefs. It takes a lot of thinking to step away from the larger group and even consider the possibility that we have been lied to all our lives and admit that we are simply a more intelligent and destructive a species than the ant. I wonder if that could be true ?

Perhaps that's why they've just strengthened the HWI team--I'm for ever stepping away and out if step... I'm getting a bit too much for them!

Peter S.

[Richard]

Hello Comet, Peter and everybody.

As Dave requested, please keep this discussion to the subject of Music Therapy, which is not connected with religion.

Many thanks,

Richard

[stevemacdonald]

The real mystery for me is how music "does its thing" in being therapeutic in the first place. Is there something inherent in sound vibrations that, like water, acts as an all-purpose solvent, for emotional blockages?

My guess is that music originally came from emulation of nature (bird songs, water streaming, storm noises, heartbeats, etc.) and served as a communication tool. If you can aurally paint a picture you can effectively tell another what to expect downrange. The beat invoked can convey the necessary level of alertness for each step of the way. Tonality can supply additional cues about the texture of the environment.

Perhaps we evolved to interpret sounds on a richly conjuring level. We can picture each sound as an event or a possible experience to warn others about. Early musical arrangements would correspond with an exact understanding of a story meant to be shared. Add in actual language and you've got everything you need to create a virtual world of what's out there.

Flash forward to the modern music scene and you'll recognise all the basics of evocation and emotional shorthand in most everything you hear. The fine art of it has taken over from the pure survival aspect, but the intention to communicate one's perception to another remains.

What I also wonder about is whether music therapy as an established profession is eventually going to lend its own spin to music. Will it isolate the most nutritious parts and serve them up as a concentrated musical multivitamin? Will music be created specifically to be prescribed by music therapists? What if they come up with a formula so potent it requires approval by the FDA?

[milewalker]

Hi Steve,

I think you have actually rather accurately depicted the development of language. There are in fact, many examples among other mammals where sounds apparently fulfill exactly the role you suggest. Music of course probably did have its roots in language and in sounds of nature- but by the time it developed into anything in which we would recognize as music today I suspect there were already other social purposes in mind. One thing not covered here is the ritual element - a fact we still see in music today as most songs repeat a variation of the same melody several times, and often have a chorus which is repeated in the song. There is comfort - not to mention a great communal value when people come together to sing the music preferred by that culture.

I dont think we evolved to enjoy music so much as that music was created to appeal to certain brain states and structures we already had present. Evolution as a rule works much more slowly. We may perceive cultural change to be very slow - but that is in large part because our lives are short compared to the life of a culture. Evolutionary change needs a couple of hundred thousand years to be noticeable - except in rather unusual situations. As slow as we perceive cultural change to be it still takes place more or less generationally - another reason why we seem to drift away from the mainstream as we age.

Getting this back on topic it is an established scientific fact that certain music does produce a change in brain state - in some people some of the time. There is some contradictory evidence that being exposed to certain types of music at a very early age can increase intelligence. What is much less clear is whether or not these effects are innate - IE we are "hard wired" for music to have such an effect, or whether they are more culturally determined As I suggested above, one possible explanation for a part of the phenomenon is that we learn to associate a particular type of music with a particular event in our early childhood - and later go on to experience the appropriate emotion when we hear a similar type of music. Like most debates about "nature vs nurture" there is probably some element of both.

Jon - who notes with considerable amusement that this thread has produced an ad for a Kabbalah personality test

PS Comet - Regarding your post above, I am not going to go into details here for obvious reasons - but I dont think the expression of an honest belief is a lie. I personally believe many things to be true - I could also be completely wrong about some or all of them. There is no logical contradiction in those two statements.