Sure-fire ways for Hayley to succeed in the USA

[stuartj]

Sept 19, 2008 0:46:01 GMT fusilier23 said:

Hayley and Katherine have both done an admirable job of staying apolitical, and I believe should monitor their choice of material to stay that way.


However, some of these other singers and groups have become so wedded to the politics that surrounded their music at the time of its creation that now they are seen as out-of-date and can't attract much of an audience beyond the political or the nostalgic. Joan Baez' last major public appearance was supporting the Cindy Sheehan nonsense down in Texas, and I saw a recent TV special in which Peter Paul and Mary performed "The Times, They Are A-Changin'" and prefaced it with pretentious rhetoric about "justice is never out of style." Oh please. It seems like these perfomers are stuck in time, relics of a world long gone and forgotten amidst rusting VW buses and long dried-up flowers.

Nobody is suggesting that Hayley should not remain apolitical.

But contrary to what you say Joan Baez is in her 60s and attracting bigger audiences now than she did in her youth.

Quote:
Headliners at this year’s Eisteddfod included folk legend Joan Baez, Spanish tenor Jose Carreras, and 19-year-old New Zealander, soprano Haley Westenra.
End Quote

Baez has another English concert in Otober this year at Bridgewater Hall and is in heavy demand for concerts. For a singer in her sixties to be doing so well hardly suggests her political agenda has damaged her. Bob Dylan seems to be doing ok, too.

And Hayley's singing a non-political song of Baez's or studying Baez's music will hardly taint Hayley.

If Hayley were to sing Paul Stookey's "Wedding Song", it would hardly taint her either. That is Paul of Peter Paul and Mary and they too are still selling records (and that "Wedding Song", for one, has been covered by hundreds of singers of all types, and thousands of amateurs as well).

The number of singers of every political stripe who have sung Dylan's "Blown In the Wind", must rank in the thousands too.

I don't understand your point. Should Hayley not have sung Amazing Grace since Baez also sung it? Baez's reptertoire includes a lot of harmless non-political traditional folk songs that Hayley could look at. They include In the Wild Highland Thyme, and Garrick Fergus, to mention just two oft sung folk songs. If Hayley sings either of those songs will people walk out of her concerts because Baez sang them?

We're suggesting that she looks at Baez's folk repertoire, not take on board Baez's politics. Mind you, given that Baez wrote a famous song to Bob Dylan about "The Sixties are Gone", and her recent concerns are more to do with environmentmental issues than politics, she and Hayley may not differ as much as you may think.

[fusilier23]

You clearly didn't read my last paragraph, which was the real point I was trying to make. You speak in undated generalities, without any supporting information, what is your proof that Joan Baez is doing better now than at the height of her popularity? By how many audience members? When was this Wales appearance of hers?

My point is that, to really make a splash, Hayley needs to create her own original material that isn't wedded to some agenda, that others will still be singing long after she passes from the scene, not spend a lot of time covering songs from a repertory whose time has come and gone.

BTW, hymns and Celtic tunes like you mention have endured precisely because they aren't wedded to some agenda. Joan B was hardly the first or the last singer to sing 'Amazing Grace" or "Carrickfergus," both of which were around at least a century before she was.

[milewalker]

Heh

Both of you are overstating the case. Collins, PP&M, Baez et al are what I referred to above as "legacy" artists. They survive because they had their share of talent, and also a big enough fan base at their peak to withstand a 90 percent loss and still fare pretty well playing small venues. None of them are anything like as popular as they once were - nor should they, in my opinion, reasonably be expected to be.

On the other hand, I think that there are probably more talented artists out there than there are high-profile spots for fame, which makes simple luck - being in the right place at the right time - one of the major determining factors. I think these artists did benefit from the political climate of their day. It was their lucky break in a sense, and if they are stuck in a time warp, the old expression that one should "dance with the girl you brought" comes to mind.

It would be great if Hayley were to write and perform a great and beloved song which would stand the test of time. But, in my opinion, in order for a song to achieve this, it must first resonate in the singers own time. Sometimes, the resonance is political and sometimes it isnt.

The songwriters mentioned above did achieve this - and regardless of its philosophical merits, a song like Imagine is still being performed quite regularly by a number of people more than 20 years after the passing of its author. I suspect it will have quite a long shelf life. On the other hand the same could be said for something like "The Music of the Night" which isnt political at all.

Jon

[stuartj]

Sept 19, 2008 3:36:47 GMT fusilier23 said:

You clearly didn't read my last paragraph, which was the real point I was trying to make. You speak in undated generalities, without any supporting information, what is your proof that Joan Baez is doing better now than at the height of her popularity? By how many audience members? When was this Wales appearance of hers?

My point is that, to really make a splash, Hayley needs to create her own original material that isn't wedded to some agenda, that others will still be singing long after she passes from the scene, not spend a lot of time covering songs from a repertory whose time has come and gone.

BTW, hymns and Celtic tunes like you mention have endured precisely because they aren't wedded to some agenda. Joan B was hardly the first or the last singer to sing 'Amazing Grace" or "Carrickfergus," both of which were around at least a century before she was.

Exactly, most of what Joan B sings isn't wedded to any agenda. I can't believe what you are saying.

How many times must I repeat that it is Baez's non-politcal material that Hayley should look at, not anthing wedded to a political agenda.

Will you please just stop twisting my words. I have never said that Hayley should sing anything political. We are talking about all the songs that Baez sings not the handful she wrote, which would be inappropriate.

what is your proof that Joan Baez is doing better now than at the height of her popularity?

I didn't say at the height of her popularity, I said "in her youth". This is hilarious. It is impossible for her to get bigger audiences than at the height of her popularity.

In her youth she was a club, coffee bar singer. She is getting bigger audiences now than in her early years.

In her youth she would hardly have been invited to do major concerts in the UK.

The Welsh thing was when Hayley was 19, when Hayley appeared at the Eisteddfod. I thought that was sufficient to identify the time on this forum of all places.

To be precise was 13 July 2007.

www.howwastheshow.com/index.cfm/action/reviews.view/reviewKey/711

Major Baez concerts 2005 on:
==================================================
2005
After some well-deserved time off in the winter and spring, Joan returns to Teatro ZinZanni as the Gypsy "Calliope."

In August she joins antiwar activist Cindy Sheehan in Crawford, Texas, for the weeks long protest outside President Bush's ranch. Sheehan's son Casey was killed in combat while in Iraq.

Joan returns to touring in the U.S. in the fall, after the release of her live CD Bowery Songs, recorded in November of 2004 at the Bowery Ballroom in New York City.

2006
Joan tours the U.K., France, Germany and Italy in March and April.

Joan tours the U.S. in October and November.

2007
Joan receives a Lifetime Achievement Award from NARAS (National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences) at the 2007 Grammy Awards, and introduces a performance by the Dixie Chicks.

Joan returns to the U.K./Europe for a concert tour in the winter.

Baez's Tours and Concerts 2008 She is doing 28 Concerts all over Europe the UK and the US between now and the end of the year. I stand by what I said.
---------------------------------------------------------
FALL 2008 U.S. AND WORLD DATES!
09/20/08
Chautauqua Auditorium (Etown)
900 Baseline Road
Boulder, COLORADO

09/26/08
Vicar Street
59 Thomas St.
Dublin
IRELAND
-SOLD OUT!

09/27/08
Vicar Street
59 Thomas St.
Dublin
IRELAND
-SOLD OUT!

09/29/08
Royal Concert Hall
2 Sauchiehall St.
Glasgow
UNITED KINGDOM
-tickets available through Glasgow Concert Halls' etickets

10/01/08
Bridgewater Hall
Lower Mosely St.
Manchester
UNITED KINGDOM
-tickets available through Bridgewater Hall's online box office

10/02/08
Royal Albert Hall
Kensington Gore
London
UNITED KINGDOM
-tickets available through RAH website

10/05/08
Vredenburg Leidsche Rijn
Utrecht
HOLLAND
-tickets available through Ticketmaster

10/07/08
Tempodrom
Mockernstrasse 10
Berlin
GERMANY
-tickets available through Tempodrom

10/08/08
Laeizhalle
Johannes Brahms Platz
Hamburg
GERMANY
-tickets available through Kartenhaus

10/11/08
Milan Smeraldo
Milan
ITALY
-tickets on sale 07/25/08 through TicketOne

10/13/08
Palais des Congres
Place de la Porte Maillot
Paris
FRANCE
-tickets available now through the website of Palais des Congres

10/26/08
Kimmel Center
300 South Broad Street
Philadelphia, PENNSYLVANIA
-tickets available now through the Kimmel Center box office

10/28/08
Town Hall
123 W. 43 Street
New York, NEW YORK
-tickets available now through Ticketmaster

10/29/08
Town Hall
123 W. 43 Street
New York, NEW YORK
-tickets available now through Ticketmaster

11/01/08
Berklee Performance Center
136 Massachusetts Avenue
Boston, MASSACHUSETTS
-tickets available now through Berklee box office or Ticketmaster

11/02/08
Berklee Performance Center
136 Massachusetts Avenue
Boston, MASSACHUSETTS
-tickets available now through Berklee box office or Ticketmaster

11/05/08
The Birchmere
3701 Mt. Vernon Avenue
Alexandria, VIRGINIA
-tickets available now through Ticketmaster

11/06/08
The Birchmere
3701 Mt. Vernon Avenue
Alexandria, VIRGINIA
-tickets available now through Ticketmaster

11/08/08
Massey Hall
178 Victoria Street
Toronto, Ontario
CANADA
-tickets on sale TBA through the Massey Hall website

11/10/08
Michigan Theater
603 East Liberty Street
Ann Arbor, MICHIGAN
-tickets available now through Ticketmaster

11/11/08
Symphony Center
220 S. Michigan Avenue
Chicago, ILLINOIS
-tickets available now through the Symphony Center box office

11/13/08
State Theatre
805 Hennepin Avenue
Minneapolis, MINNESOTA
-tickets available now through Ticketmaster

11/15/08
Wells Fargo Center for the Arts
50 Mark West Springs Road
Santa Rosa, CALIFORNIA
-tickets available now through the WFC for the Arts website

11/18/08
Herbst Theatre
401 Van Ness Avenue
San Francisco, CALIFORNIA
-tickets available now through Ticketmaster

11/19/08
Herbst Theatre
401 Van Ness Avenue
San Francisco, CALIFORNIA
-tickets available now through Ticketmaster

11/21/08
The Shedd Institute
868 High Street
Eugene, OREGON

11/23/08
Aladdin Theater
3017 SE Milwaukie
Portland, OREGON

11/24/08
Moore Theatre
1932 2nd Avenue
Seattle, WASHINGTON

These tour dates are

[stuartj]

Sept 19, 2008 5:22:03 GMT milewalker said:

Heh

Both of you are overstating the case. Collins, PP&M, Baez et al are what I referred to above as "legacy" artists. They survive because they had their share of talent, and also a big enough fan base at their peak to withstand a 90 percent loss and still fare pretty well playing small venues. None of them are anything like as popular as they once were - nor should they, in my opinion, reasonably be expected to be.

On the other hand, I think that there are probably more talented artists out there than there are high-profile spots for fame, which makes simple luck - being in the right place at the right time - one of the major determining factors. I think these artists did benefit from the political climate of their day. It was their lucky break in a sense, and if they are stuck in a time warp, the old expression that one should "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifance with the girl you brought" comes to mind.

It would be great if Hayley were to write and perform a great and beloved song which would stand the test of time. But, in my opinion, in order for a song to achieve this, it must first resonate in the singers own time. Sometimes, the resonance is political and sometimes it isnt.

The songwriters mentioned above did achieve this - and regardless of its philosophical merits, a song like Imagine is still being performed quite regularly by a number of people more than 20 years after the passing of its author. I suspect it will have quite a long shelf life. On the other hand the same could be said for something like "The Music of the Night" which isnt political at all.

Jon

I wonder if my list of Baez concerts has made you reappraise your comments regarding Baez, if not the others. She has widened the material she sings markedly, and also, IMO, has a much wider fan base now than in the sixties. In the sixties she sung to the choir in the US, now she is all over the world -- Europe, UK -- especially Ireland -- singing to sell-out houses. Her Celtic stuff is something else that Hayley may have something in common with.

Jon, she's not making the headlines for being arrested or her husband being arrested, but that doesn't mean that she isn't pulling bigger audiences from a much wider range of the population than she used to.

It is unusual, but it's happened. And I'm not convinced by the "legacy" argument. I walked into a local resturant with a newspaper about Keith Richards falling out of that tree in Fiji and all the young waitresses and waiters were all over me to get the lates info. These people aged from about 17 to mid twenties were all Stones fans too.

Yes a great original song would do the trick. But that is easier said than done.

And let's be very cautious. I have often thought that Hayley was lucky to be in the right place at the right time too.

Isn't at least a part of Hayley's success that she is riding a strong conservative backlash against young female stars taking raunchiness, etc to extremes?

StuartJ

[milewalker]

Possibly different perspectives involved Stuart

I am basing my comment on Joan's chart placement in America - which is, to the degree that it might provide a model for Hayley, a sort of sub-theme of this thread. I am basing popularity on the records they sold at their peak. not the concerts they do now because they are somewhat different things. For example, John Denver in 1990 was only selling about a eighth of his peak level - and that does indicate a significant loss in his fan base. Despite this, he was able to tour 1 to 4 thousand seat venues in the US almost constantly. It gets back to something I said above about the value of having young fans. Having 1 fan for 20 years generates more income than having 4 fans for 5 years each. The ones who are left after so much time comprise the loyalist fans you ever had - and while they will buy everything you make, that is usually not enough to allow you to chart. What is important is that they will also go to as many concerts as they can.

I havent been following Baez closely, so I really dont know what her sales levels are elsewhere. I havent seen her chart in the US in 20 years or more, and her name only comes up occasionally in the US media. I would be surprised if she was moving a significant number of records in the UK - but it doesnt surprise me that she is able to tour quite successfully Joan may indeed be making almost as much money now as she ever has - that means that her career is now more efficient, not that she is more popular.

The same thing is true of a group like the Stones. It is not that these acts have no young fans at all - it is that their old fans have been dying off at a much faster rate than they can be replaced by new fans. What you are seeing there is an extreme. They had a vast fanbase to begin with and it attrited more slowly than most, and a small influx of young people is still quite a few people - but the general theme still holds. Their chart presence has been in steady decline for the last 25 years. Madonna is similar at an earlier state of decline -at one point she was moving about 6 million per release. Now it is more like 2 million - but she can still fill a 15,000 seat stadium.

Oversimplifying somewhat, a high level of CD sales is a leading indicator of the success of a career. Concert sales are more often than not a trailing indicator. If both are happening simultaneously it is a pretty good sign the career is peaking.

I would also like to note that we seem to straying pretty far from the topic at hand ....so

I personally have no opinion at all regarding the wisdom of Hayley becoming political or not in her music. It has obviously worked well for some people - and I dont really agree that it creates unique problems for them later (everybody has negatives, and all fanbases attrit). I dont know Hayley personally, so any impression I might have that she has strong beliefs or that she might share them is just speculation at best. It may not be her style. But there are many other ways a songwriter can resonate with the spirit of their time.

Jon

[martindn]

Hi Jon,

I really cannot get my head round the idea that Hayley might make a political stand. I think like most intelligent people, she is above all that. Hayley just wants to sing, and if there is a good song that suits her voice she will sing it. If she has any idealogical bias at all, it is Christian, not political. After all, how political were you at Hayley's age? I have to say that for myself, I was pretty clueless about politics at her age. Now that I have a better understanding, I want nothing to do with it, and haven't voted now for many years. You soon learn that even in a so-called democracy, you have no real choice. The faces may change but the policies don't.
So I think Hayley is an innocent in all of this. She does not express a political opinion, and does not want to be tarred with a political brush. It would be unfair of us to attempt to do so.
As for Baez, I liked her voice and bought some of her music years ago. But that was because Iiked her voice, not her politics - that is irrelevant. This is music we are talking about. Music is far more important than politics, whatever the politicians would like us to think, and however hard they try to inflate their own perceived importance. Music touches our souls, politics only touches our wallets and our egos. The current economic turmoil is a good indication of how much power they really have!
Yes, I am sure that Hayley has strong beliefs, and I am equally sure they are not political.
Meanwhile, let us look at what is important about Hayley, and just enjoy her music.

Martin

[I-H-F]

Sept 19, 2008 0:46:01 GMT fusilier23 said:

My point is this: original music would be great. I would like nothing better than for Hayley to go down in history known for a song that she and she alone created and made famous, but for it to truly be a song that goes down in history, it must be able to transcend its time. "https://i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifanny Boy" could do that, it's about something every generation can relate to, ditto "The Battle Hymn of the Republic." Whether Hayley can write a song that transcends time is something we have yet to see.

Hayley has written some of her own songs, some which I really like. But, I don't really care if all she does is cover famous songs, because she does a damn fine job in doing so!

Live for today, enjoy Hayley's music now. The future and history will take care of itself.

[I-H-F]

Sept 19, 2008 23:04:24 GMT martindn said:

Hi Jon,

I really cannot get my head round the idea that Hayley might make a political stand. I think like most intelligent people, she is above all that. Hayley just wants to sing, and if there is a good song that suits her voice she will sing it. If she has any idealogical bias at all, it is Christian, not political. After all, how political were you at Hayley's age? I have to say that for myself, I was pretty clueless about politics at her age. Now that I have a better understanding, I want nothing to do with it, and haven't voted now for many years. You soon learn that even in a so-called democracy, you have no real choice. The faces may change but the policies don't.
So I think Hayley is an innocent in all of this. She does not express a political opinion, and does not want to be tarred with a political brush. It would be unfair of us to attempt to do so.
As for Baez, I liked her voice and bought some of her music years ago. But that was because Iiked her voice, not her politics - that is irrelevant. This is music we are talking about. Music is far more important than politics, whatever the politicians would like us to think, and however hard they try to inflate their own perceived importance. Music touches our souls, politics only touches our wallets and our egos. The current economic turmoil is a good indication of how much power they really have!
Yes, I am sure that Hayley has strong beliefs, and I am equally sure they are not political.
Meanwhile, let us look at what is important about Hayley, and just enjoy her music.

Martin

Excellent points, Martin. I totally agree with you.

[stuartj]

Sept 19, 2008 14:26:31 GMT milewalker said:

Possibly different perspectives involved Stuart

I am basing my comment on Joan's chart placement in America - which is, to the degree that it might provide a model for Hayley, a sort of sub-theme of this thread. I am basing popularity on the records they sold at their peak. not the concerts they do now because they are somewhat different things. For example, John Denver in 1990 was only selling about a eighth of his peak level - and that does indicate a significant loss in his fan base. Despite this, he was able to tour 1 to 4 thousand seat venues in the US almost constantly. It gets back to something I said above about the value of having young fans. Having 1 fan for 20 years generates more income than having 4 fans for 5 years each. The ones who are left after so much time comprise the loyalist fans you ever had - and while they will buy everything you make, that is usually not enough to allow you to chart. What is important is that they will also go to as many concerts as they can.

I havent been following Baez closely, so I really dont know what her sales levels are elsewhere. I havent seen her chart in the US in 20 years or more, and her name only comes up occasionally in the US media. I would be surprised if she was moving a significant number of records in the UK - but it doesnt surprise me that she is able to tour quite successfully Joan may indeed be making almost as much money now as she ever has - that means that her career is now more efficient, not that she is more popular.

The same thing is true of a group like the Stones. It is not that these acts have no young fans at all - it is that their old fans have been dying off at a much faster rate than they can be replaced by new fans. What you are seeing there is an extreme. They had a vast fanbase to begin with and it attrited more slowly than most, and a small influx of young people is still quite a few people - but the general theme still holds. Their chart presence has been in steady decline for the last 25 years. Madonna is similar at an earlier state of decline -at one point she was moving about 6 million per release. Now it is more like 2 million - but she can still fill a 15,000 seat stadium.

Oversimplifying somewhat, a high level of CD sales is a leading indicator of the success of a career. Concert sales are more often than not a trailing indicator. If both are happening simultaneously it is a pretty good sign the career is peaking.

I would also like to note that we seem to straying pretty far from the topic at hand ....so

I personally have no opinion at all regarding the wisdom of Hayley becoming political or not in her music. It has obviously worked well for some people - and I dont really agree that it creates unique problems for them later (everybody has negatives, and all fanbases attrit). I dont know Hayley personally, so any impression I might have that she has strong beliefs or that she might share them is just speculation at best. It may not be her style. But there are many other ways a songwriter can resonate with the spirit of their time.

Jon

Fair enough, Jon, and I was thinking of mentioning myself that her success or otherwise is not the real point about Joan B.

Artists, writers, singers, study other artists to get ideas and inspiration. Baez has been highly influential and her style has at least a little in common with Hayley. Hayley's versions of "May It Be" remind me of Baez.

I suggest her as someone whom Hayley could study, if she hasn't already. I don't say Hayley should copy Baez, sing anything political or take on any of Baez's politics.

If you are studying literature you don't throw Waugh out the window because he was right-wing or Auden because he was Left-wing. And I don't understand the dismissing of Baez on the grounds of her politics.

I agree that political views haven't done much harm to most writers, actors, singers, and other celebrities. The important thing is not to go to extremes or show hypocrisy. Even the left agrees that Jane Fonda went beyond the pale when she climbed over the North Vietnamese guns. In fact one of the top US brass at the time -- I forget exactly who -- said he could respect Baez's views because she was calling on the North Vietnamese and Viet Kong to lay down their arms too, but couldn't accept Fonda's attitude.

I thought Hayley already had something of a reputation for "activism", at least in the environmental realm, and I could have sworn I heard her express firm anti-war anti-Iraq views on an interview on YT, but decided that singing to President Bush didn't do any harm, as it were.

Environmentalist activity is seen by many as wedded to leftish politics (and it often is, although not invariably).

Hayley, I feel, was a tad naive, but at 17 quite forgivable, in attempting to force a Kyoto agreement (whatever it was) on Bush. It seems she got outflanked at the White House and didn't get the chance, which doesn't surprise me. But I don't think she gave offence. People may even admire her spunkiness in attempting it, especially since she was so young.

People like people who have the courage of their convictions and are straight down the line. Hayley is fortunate in that her strongest interests lie in the relatively uncontroversial Unicef and underpriviledge kids areas. If you have no politics, no hobby horses then you risk ending up appearing to be insipid and boring.

But it's for Hayley to decide what issues, if any, she espouses, and there is no saying that she won't at some stage disappoint some of her fans.

Back on topic, if Josh Groban decided he wanted Hayley to do a duet on one of his albums wouldn't do her any harm.

And is it out of the question -- would it be to big of a risk -- for her to essay a "Hayley meets American Pop songs" album?

I belive her recent duets at the Lloyd Webber Birthday bash show that she can now sing successfully about sex and love.

An American pop song album could include:

1. Help me make it through the night * (* = perhaps a duet with tenor like Jonathan Ansell, or even Will Martin)
2. Piano Man
3. Whiter shade of pale (rubbish but highly salable)
4. Long black veil *
5. This land is your land *
6. Forever Young
7. Please come to Boston
8. Suzanne
9. Don't be cruel (or some Elvis number for a bit of fun [you ain't nothing but a hound dog, dedicated to Dame Kiri is a possibility])

And so on.

The problem is whether if it failed, it would do great harm. Perhaps a New Zealand only version of it could be realeased to test the water...

[milewalker]

Sept 20, 2008 1:52:36 GMT stuartj said:

I thought Hayley already had something of a reputation for "activism", at least in the environmental realm, and I could have sworn I heard her express firm anti-war anti-Iraq views on an interview on YT, but decided that singing to President Bush didn't do any harm, as it were.

Environmentalist activity is seen by many as wedded to leftish politics (and it often is, although not invariably).

Hayley, I feel, was a tad naive, but at 17 quite forgivable, in attempting to force a Kyoto agreement (whatever it was) on Bush. It seems she got outflanked at the White House and didn't get the chance, which doesn't surprise me.
People like people who have the courage of their convictions and are straight down the line. Hayley is fortunate in that her strongest interests lie in the relatively uncontroversial Unicef and underpriviledge kids areas. If you have no politics, no hobby horses then you risk ending up appearing to be insipid and boring.

Hi Stuart,

I was in the process of making a similar comment to Martin above when I saw your post, so I will let you steal my thunder

I am not aware that Hayley made any comments about the war in Iraq, but I have by no means seen every interview she has ever done. You are spot on however, about environmental activism. It isnt necessarily left wing, but it is certainly a political statement.

Jon

[Richard]

This thread has drifted way off-topic into politics, so it is now locked.

Richard