Sure-fire ways for Hayley to succeed in the USA

[roger]

Steve's suggestion of two entirely different albums and Socalboy's idea of dimming the spotlight in one (musical) area and turning it up in another are extensions of what is already happening. This has led to regular complaints for three years from fans who object to differing versions of the same basic album around the world.

This brings me us back to Jon's point about evolution rather than revolution; a concept with which I heartily concur. But evolution is a slow and gradual process and Hayley needs to break into the US market NOW.

Roger

[milewalker]

There is another aspect of Hayley and "change" which may be relevant to this discussion as well. When Hayley hit the UK market, she was a 15 year old with a glorious voice. Since her initial efforts in the US failed, if she is going to succeed here it is going to be as a 19-21 year old - ie a much more mature person. I think that this may actually be related somehow to the "change in personality" that people seem to fear. Hayley may not (and actually probably has not) changed unusually in the intervening years - yet such smaller changes (some would call it simply growth) as did occur are all going to be the very things which end up being emphasized because of that. Indirectly, we have already discussed a part of that here when we said that she had a vast future potential as a romantic balladeer. That is simply an option open to her now that wasnt open to her then - and for no other reason than the fact that she is older.

My fear is that some people are going to misinterpret what may in reality be a rather gentle result of simply growing up as some kind of sea change in her "personality" - and there may not be much she can do about that even if she settles down and decides to limit herself to the UK niche she has for the rest of her life.

Jon

[stevemacdonald]

roger said:

Steve's suggestion of two entirely different albums and Socalboy's idea of dimming the spotlight in one (musical) area and turning it up in another are extensions of what is already happening. This has led to regular complaints for three years from fans who object to differing versions of the same basic album around the world.

While it's true there's been chronic complaining about the different versions of the same basic album, no one would be as quick to whine about two completely different albums which served separate purposes. Hayley could even make a name for herself by being the first to do something so bold!

[socalboy]

roger said:

Steve's suggestion of two entirely different albums and Socalboy's idea of dimming the spotlight in one (musical) area and turning it up in another are extensions of what is already happening. This has led to regular complaints for three years from fans who object to differing versions of the same basic album around the world.

Well Roger, you said in time you might dive in, and now you’re giving it to us good! You’ve got the experience and history with this, to which I must defer.

I will say this. If what they have attempted to do by releasing these different regional versions is the same thing that I’m suggesting, then it’s been a job royally botched.

I love Celtic Treasure. But it has exactly one track – SummerFly – that has any chance of meaningful airplay here.

Perhaps there hasn’t been enough clarity from the label, and I also think the differences are sometimes inexplicable, such as including a Maori favorite on the UK version but not on the album released in New Zealand. Which takes me to this:

roger said:

But evolution is a slow and gradual process and Hayley needs to break into the US market NOW.

Roger

At the risk of alienating some of the esteemed members here, complaints about different versions often come, not from everyday buyers, but from devotees who want to have their collections just so. I don’t blame them, but I’d trade a few complaints for double platinum in the States.

[Dave]

I've read all this thread with much interest but it's too detailed for me to respond to individual points so I'll just do a summary of my views.

I don't think there is any sure fire way for Hayley or any foreigner to "take off" in the US (if the yardstick is the Billboard 200 album chart). In fact, although I'd love her to "make it big" there, I don't think she ever will do - in album sales terms - because it didn't happen when she had the best chance in 2004. Frankly, that chance isn't going to happen again for reasons set out well in this thread. Not unless... she gets the title song in a blockbuster movie or TV series - and that will always be a possibility.

Celtic Woman on its own won't change much about what's already happening. Hayley was and she remains by some margin the best-selling individual member of CW in the US and I will soon post some stats to demonstrate that, in the CW and Hayley board. Hayley is right up there in the Sarah Brightman league as a classical crossover singer and no other female classical/crossover singer is ahead of them or even close. In that respect, we can already say that Hayley is successful in the US - albeit in a specialist genre. If she maintains an annual presence in tours such as this one, there is no reason why that level of success should not continue or even improve a bit.

So what will the CW and other tours do for Hayley? Well I think it's twofold:

1. They have and will (hopefully) continue to get Hayley additional media coverage including some limited TV exposure - this will increase her albums sales and should if the timing is right make Celtic Treasure and future albums a bit more successful than Odyssey. The income from the album sales will of course mostly go to Decca where, I suspect, there is still a bit of a black hole to be filled, after the huge expenses of Pure.

2. It will give Hayley a nice source of income that Decca can't get their hands on. I suspect that one of the reasons why Hayley does so many concerts and tours is to make the money she needs to live on. This is easily overlooked and it helps to explain my next point.

I think Hayley's presence touring right now in the US may produce a net loss in Worldwide album sales for Hayley (and Decca). This is because she is not able to remain in her biggest markets for long enough (or at all) near to the release dates of the new album. Taking the UK as but one example, I am certain that if she spent say 2 to 3 months there and did some touring, around the time of each new album release, she would get several additional TV appearances, additional media coverage and would increase her album sales substantially; from say 120,000 a year to 200,000 or more. The reason Treasure is now dropping rapidly down the UK charts is that Hayley has gone all quiet - she's been AWOL from the media for a several weeks already, and it's only 5 weeks since the release date. There is at present a much bigger chance of Hayley selling 200,000 albums a year in the UK than in the US.

However... if all that extra income from album sales would just go into the Decca black hole, Hayley is right to jump at the chance of a major US tour like CW (or Il Divo as last year) to help earn a good living - even if she and Decca lose album sales because of it. Let's not forget that most big opera stars for example sell far fewer albums than Hayley but they seem to lead a very comfortable life, arising primarily from their stage performances not album sales. Hayley can do this too - though not of course in opera - and when the Decca black hole is filled or pushed into some parallel universe, she'll be laughing all the way to the Bank (I hope!).

I think Hayley will continue to engage in major and successful US tours of one kind or another but I can't see her ever doing an 'Amy Winehouse' or 'Joss Stone' (top 10 in the Billboard 200) without that blockbuster movie title theme. But I think she is still - and will continue to be - 'successful' in the US, when judged by the standards of her musical styles, gender and Nationality.

Cheers, Dave

[roger]

stevemacdonald said:

While it's true there's been chronic complaining about the different versions of the same basic album, no one would be as quick to whine about two completely different albums which served separate purposes. Hayley could even make a name for herself by being the first to do something so bold!

Yes, she could - if it proved successful. I think the idea of two entirely different albums targeting specific regions is very interesting and is on a parallel to the few established singers who produce classical albums and pop albums alternately. But they know there is a market for both.

If this idea were taken up, one of the following would be needed:

EITHER songs would have to be selected, learned, arranged, rehearsed, recorded and mixed at twice the current rate (which, I suspect, would have an adverse effect on the end product), OR the above would occur at the same rate as it does now but any one album would be released in either the US or the UK - but not both. Surely the production costs (up to the point when the master copy is produced) would be virtually the same whether the resulting album were released in one region or many. If the album was limited to one country, albeit a large one, I suspect this would not be considered a viable option.

Even if it happened, it still doesn't guarantee the success that we are looking for without significant promo. I think I have just convinced myself (if nobody else!) that Hayley should not be expected to target specific areas by adapting her repertoire (apart from the occasional track, perhaps). Despite everything that has been said above, I still think she would be immensely popular stateside, if only more people knew about her. That, more than anything, is surely the key to her future success.

Roger

[roger]

dave said:

2. It will give Hayley a nice source of income that Decca can't get their hands on. I suspect that one of the reasons why Hayley does so many concerts and tours is to make the money she needs to live on.

Cheers, Dave

Yes, Dave. I heard from official sources quite some time ago, that is exactly how it is.

Roger

[milewalker]

Dave - It would be great if she could attain the American presence of Joss or Amy - but not only is that not likely, it is also not necessary. Sarah is a better, more attainable goal, and to that extent I think we agree...However, Hayley has in my opinion a long ways to go to match her. Sarah has gone gold in the US at least twice, (maybe three times, and La Luna may have gone platinum - I disremember). She has also peaked as high as 17 on the Billboard charts. Because she can actually support an album with a tour leg in the US she can also better support her sales - despite a relatively low Billboard presence, Eden also went gold (I think). As I stated above, this level might be attainable some day for Hayley, but her progress is painfully slow.

In terms of Billboard performance, it wouldnt take a whole lot to jumpstart the rest of the package - but I think she does need to have one album break the top 50 at minimum somehow.

Touring is the way that most contract artists actually make their money - except for the very few that really break out their CD sales. Hayley is no exception to the general rule in that regard. Having said this, if she ends her contract owing Decca money she would still be responsible for it., which in my opinion kinda weakens the point. Also, the effect of CD sales and tour income is normally synergystic - they fuel each other. It is important to note this, because it is one effect which the CW tour doesnt provide (or rather provides in faded colors) that a solo tour would.

-------

One final point about the failure of Pure in the US - I had actually forgotten this until a side comment from SocialBoy earlier jogged my somewhat febrile memory - the name of the album itself. When I heard the album was going to be named Pure, I cringed. I think I may have stated this at the time on one of the older HW lists - I know I stated it at the time on the old Charlotte Church Community where I worked with Gerrit. It worked to some extent in the UK of course, but in the US, it just screamed "clone". It doesnt help matters when many of the people you are trying to attract think this is cynical marketing, and that you are a "wannabe". It isnt that many people complained about it - I think they just shut her off. Though the effect fades with time of course, it still hurts her even now I think.
The title of that album is the basic reason why the media still makes the comparison, and my understanding is that even some people around here are sick of the comparison.

Jon

[Dave]

milewalker said:

Dave - It would be great if she could attain the American presence of Joss or Amy - but not only is that not likely, it is also not necessary. Sarah is a better, more attainable goal, and to that extent I think we agree...However, Hayley has in my opinion a long ways to go to match her. Sarah has gone gold in the US at least twice, (maybe three times, and La Luna may have gone platinum - I disremember). She has also peaked as high as 17 on the Billboard charts.

Hi Jon,

I'd better add, quickly, that I was only making the Sarah comparison for the three years since Hayley released "Pure" in the US. I agree that Sarah is a bigger fish (on both sides of the pond!) in terms of her whole career. But over the last three years, there isn't much between them in the US - and no other female artist in the genre seems to have come close in the US. It's certainly a tough genre for women in the US - and much easier for women in the UK and New Zealand. I wonder why?

I don't think Hayley will reach what Sarah achieved at the peak of her career - unless (as is possible) she gets that blockbuster movie theme song. I'd be over the moon if she did.

This is a fascinating thread.

Cheers, Dave

[milewalker]

Hi Dave,

Sarah is certainly in decline, but still in my opinion somewhat ahead. I would have to check - but while I dont think that Harem went gold, it probably did exceed 300,000. What is more important though is that her prior success still is a factor. She was able to successfully tour the US with Harem (I know this because it is the last concert I went too ). She didnt quite fill the Fox Theatre in St Louis - which seats about 2500, but at $175 a pop I suspect she did just fine.

If male singers have an advantage here, it is probably because SocialBoy is right, and most genres of sales are actually driven by women. In addition to the girl power kind of effects that he speculates that Hayley might be able to exploit, a male performer can probably tap into sexual attraction as well. Bocelli and Groban are able to do this - a female performer presumably cannot.

I am not sure if the gender effect is that large though - the crossover acts which tend to do the best here are the productions - there is a lot going on at a Brightman concert, or a Josh Groban concert than just the singing of the artist.

One thing which does puzzle me is why in the face of a notably aging population that crossover hasnt made a bigger impact. In America at least, the demographic which Hayley has been targeting is actually far more interested in hearing faded versions of the acts of their youth Forget Sarah Brightman. In the demo they have been targeting she would have a problem beating Tony Bennett and Johnny Mathis.

Jon

[Eric]

Great conversation guys,

I hope we can all figure out a way to promote Ms. Hayley in a cost-effective manner without compromising any of her standards or character.

Just a small note of interest: Today, I bought the two previous albums of Hayley's, "Pure" and "Odyssey," from a local record store as "used" copies. Why anyone would want to trade those cd's in is beyond me! (So, the purchase most likely does not count as new sales, but fortunately those were the only used copies on the shelf). For the very first time today, I listened to these albums.

My reaction was honestly as follows:
Wow!!!! {......Speechless!!} {.....Such beautiful music!}

I don't understand why these songs weren't played on local radio stations (not just the public radio network that few listen to during the day)!! Am I seeing things different because I view Hayley as a mature young lady with tremendous talent and poise? As opposed to maybe a young teenager with uncertain direction in the near future (possibly the perception of many in America when these cd's were initially released?) Still, I'm from America, and I don't see why some of these songs were not and still aren't favorites of local DJ's and I had to wait 'til now to hear most of them!! (little disappointed in my country's tastes, to tell the truth). I'm more addicted now than ever! It's rather frightening to see how I'll be in future years!

A very perplexed and growing fanatic,
Eric

(Is there a cure for Hayley-itis?)

[grant]

ericd03 said:

A very perplexed and growing fanatic,
Eric

(Is there a cure for Hayley-itis?)

Yes there is Eric

Lots more Hayley!!

Grant

[socalboy]

grant said:

ericd03 said:

A very perplexed and growing fanatic,
Eric

(Is there a cure for Hayley-itis?)

Yes there is Eric

Lots more Hayley!!


Grant

Be careful Grant. You may be enabling Eric's new addiction. Now, can I have my daily dose please.

[milewalker]

Here is a general synthesis of my thoughts regarding this discussion to this point:. One of the good things about a thread like this is that it has made my own thoughts evolve over the course of it, and I think a few things seem a bit more clear to me now than they were. Following are two points which affect her chances in America - but which are also relevent to the present state of her overall career as I see it as well.

I dont think you can separate the issue of Hayley trying to break the US, and the prospective reaction to this on the part of her UK fans. I have been trying to find a way to do this, and if there is one I dont see it yet. Hayley has to walk quite a challenging tightrope here - and I am not sure she can do it.

When we discuss a fanbase, we have a tendancy to think it as a collective whole, when in reality, it is a gestalt of thousands of individual reactions which are close enough to each other to coexist amicably under the current circumstances. This is the reason I tried to pin down what the meaning of the word change is. I think we would all agree that there is a line between evolution and revolution. I strongly suspect that if there were 5 of us, all five would draw that line in a different place. I think that we would also draw the line at what constitutes "too much" change in different places. Obviously coming from America, and also strongly suspicious that a lot of her failure here comes from exactly what made her succeed in the UK, I would be more tolerant of some things than I expect many of you would be. But all of you are going to make individual decisions about this as well.

Lets look at a very innocent issue - Hayley and songwriting.

I think that one problem in the US is that the repertoire of classical crossover overall is too limited for our tastes. Look at the output of Hayley, Charlotte, and Sarah, and look at just how many songs they have in common. The longer an artist stays in the field, the harder it is to stay fresh - and I am now beginning to see criticism of Hayley from reviewers over this issue even outside of the UK. Hayley is already reacting to this of course, by trying to find good songs by other artists and even more importantly writing her own songs.

And here we come to a possible problem. I note that many people seem to like the idea that she can write her own music (in fact I personally feel that it is critical for her future success in the US). I wonder how many people realize that this in and of itself is going to produce stress? Songwriting is a rather personal thing, and when it is effective it generally involves a kind of sharing between artist and fan which doesnt occur to the same degree in merely singing the work of another writer. Sometimes the songs can even be autobiographical. If that occurs, then to that small degree the artist is mixing their personal life and their career. I dont think that Hayley is likely to directly use her personal life to do something like garner publicity - I agree that this is normally not a good idea - but I do think it is possible that at some point she may share some things directly with her fans through her songs as she grows older. I dont know whether or not something like this would create a problem between her and some of her fans, because I am still very unclear about where many of you are drawing that line

I also think as she gets older that she may begin to find the Pure persona she had at age 15 to become increasingly stifling as she ages. In fact, I think this already may be happening. I am not certain of this yet - but I think I already see signs of this (I need to take a break - I would like to have a personal life - if I had a boyfriend I would be "over the moon".) I also see angst beginning to build over this on the part of some of her fans.

Good songwriting (actually some would say good singing as well) often comes from the establishiment of an emotive line of communication between the artist and the audience. I think SocialBoy, that the answer to your question of what about her is now so moving may lie here in part. My impression at least is that she now feels things she used to not feel three years ago - would like to do things it would not have occurred to her to do three years ago, and that she is now beginning to express the longing for in her music. Once one leaves the sacred genre, classical crossover, like all music is primarily about life, love and loss. It is hard write songs about this unless one has lived, loved and lost

A part of what I have been trying to say is that while nothing is certain, I think that Hayley has a pretty good chance of making it in America if she is simply allowed enough flexibility to grow into it. This is just a theory for now and I dont know that I have the answer to what constitutes acceptable growth either.....as I said above, my American viewpoint may be different for no other reason that it is America - and Hayley is something I want, not something I already have

This is already too long.....

Jon - who now expects to be excoriated

[Dave]

milewalker said:

I dont think you can separate the issue of Hayley trying to break the US, and the prospective reaction to this on the part of her UK fans. I have been trying to find a way to do this, and if there is one I dont see it yet. Hayley has to walk quite a challenging tightrope here - and I am not sure she can do it.

Hello again Jon,

I have an idea that might help to solve the dilemma. Well it's not my idea in fact, it's Andrea Bocelli's idea... and Russell Watson has now (kindof) started doing it!

Hayley could release albums alternately tailor-made for the US and the UK markets respectively. She would probably have to release albums more frequently than at present to make it work, I think.

The amount of effort and promotion for the two types of album could then be concentrated on the US or UK as appropriate - and in other places, the local Universal outlet would help decide how much effort to put into each album type.

This is similar to how Andrea Bocelli does it for his alternate Pop and Classical albums. I think for the way Hayley is doing it at the moment, too many compromises have to be made and I'd prefer to see Decca adopt the Bocelli method for Hayley.

Just an idea!

Cheers, Dave

PS: To clarify, this is not the same idea that Steve M suggested recently... I am suggesting (and have suggested previously) one album at a time - for the whole World - with an album targeted and promoted more heavily in, say, the US - selling better there and not so well in the UK etc. But the next album would be done the other way round and would be a "UK type" of album. More classically orientated, probably. Andrea has been doing this for many years.