Odyssey: which charts?

[Richard]

Hello again everybody!

I think it's time Classical Crossover was recognised properly with its own chart here in the UK, as it is in the USA. Classical music is much more popular with younger people now than it was a few years ago, and that's largely down to new, exciting performers like Hayley, who have been bold enough to introduce their own ideas into the music business. I know the purists will complain, but they can't alter the facts! As an older music lover (I'm 56), I definitely prefer the younger performers to the text-book opera singers, because I find their voices are much easier on the ear and I can hear the words. i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

Another observation. A lot of modern pop music seems very lightweight and instantly forgettable at the moment, so more and more people are turning to classical music for their listening pleasure. It's also good to see so many other young performers being inspired by Hayley and following in her footsteps.

I'm certainly hoping "Odyssey" does well in the pop chart, as "Pure" did, because that should ensure plenty of airplay on BBC Radio 2 as well as Classic FM. Don't forget to send your requests in when the album is released! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

Still 12 weeks and 6 days to the UK release!

Incidentally Roger, I certainly can't wait until Christmas, and neither can you, so I won't be buying it as a present for you either!

Bye for now,

Richard

[HWI]

I agree with you, Richard. It is long past time that Classical Crossover was recognised as a valid music genre, given it's own chart, and the respect it deserves.

It is not a new genre by any stretch of the imagination - Mario Lanza sang many songs which would be classified as crossover these days. And, long before him, Count John McCormack also did many such songs.

Of course, way back then, classical music was holding it's own in the market place. This is not the case now. In fact for quite a few years, the sales of classical recordings have been declining quite alarmingly. There was a report published a couple of years ago (I don't remember who by) which put the whole thing in perspective. It basically said that classical music recordings were in danger of joining the dinosaurs in extinction as, taken in their own right, the music industry was losing huge amounts of money on them. Whereas, classical crossover was making substantial profits. The conclusion of the report was that classical crossover was the very genre that was providing the income to allow record companies to continue to produce classical recordings and that, without it, true classical recordings would soon become a thing of the past.

Because of snobbish elitism, this must rankle with the purists, because something that they despise is the very thing providing the lifeblood to sustain that which they love. For them, I call that a catch 22 situation. i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif And I am tickled pink about it.

Few classical recordings reach sales figures of 80,000 with many being more in the region of 30,000 (I think that is about right isn't it Dave?). Figures like that will not keep recordings of classical music going for very long. After all, record companies are not benevolent organisations. They exist to make money, not lose it.

One album of crossover will make millions for a record company and, as a result, provide healthy income for a whole host of others who are part of the music industry - recording studios, writers, composers, arrangers, musicians, sound technicians, manufacturing industries (CDs, jewel cases etc.), printers, distribution networks and even staff in record shops etc.

So, come on you chart people, show it the respect it deserves and give it it's own chart. Better late than never, you know.

Keith.

[Dave]

admin said:

I agree with you, Richard. It is long past time that Classical Crossover was recognised as a valid music genre, given it's own chart, and the respect it deserves.
[snip]
Few classical recordings reach sales figures of 80,000 with many being more in the region of 30,000 (I think that is about right isn't it Dave?). Figures like that will not keep recordings of classical music going for very long. After all, record companies are not benevolent organisations. They exist to make money, not lose it.

One album of crossover will make millions for a record company and, as a result, provide healthy income for a whole host of others who are part of the music industry...

So, come on you chart people, show it the respect it deserves and give it it's own chart. Better late than never, you know.

I agree, we are overdue for a classical crossover chart, there's been one in the US for 15 years! Keith, I think even 30,000 sales is a generous estimate for most of the best selling "core classical" albums. I don't yet have complete figures but I can list most of the biggest selling classical or crossover artists in the UK.

The list below is of artists with classical or crossover albums selling over 100,000 in the UK since about 1990 (those in brackets did not qualify for the UK classical chart but qualify for the US crossover chart). The list is in approximate order of highest UK sales of their best selling album since 1990 (but is not yet complete). Compilations and movie soundtracks are not included.

The Three Tenors
(Il Divo)
Pavarotti
Russell Watson }
Hayley Westenra} These three are very close.
Charlotte Church}
(G4)
Bryn Terfel
Andrea Bocelli
Katherine Jenkins
(Bond)
Sarah Brightman
Aled Jones
Amici Forever
Lesley Garrett

I don't see any "core classical" albums in that list at all (not even Pavarotti's best sellers) so yes, classical crossover is where the money is made and it should have its own chart so that *all* classical crossover albums would be in the chart. There is no doubt that for the less popular genres, being in two charts (e.g. main + classical) is better than one.

Il Divo and G4 are special cases I think, massive publicity and brilliant marketing strategies off the back of TV shows/Simon Cowell (OK, talent too!) made their successes - but will be hard to repeat.

The root of the problem is a disgraceful lack of airplay for classical crossover singers on mainstream UK music stations. it's about time that classical crossover artists like Hayley had the same level of airplay that all pop singers expect and get - even those currently selling *far less* than singers like Hayley (Britney Spears for example). This is a throwback to the days when the singles chart was all that mattered. But the people who buy classical crossover rarely if ever buy singles so that method of getting airplay and publicity is not available. Katherine Jenkins tried it at the height of her popularity - and her single bombed (no. 76). It makes me mad

[stephch]

I too prefer classical crossover singer's over proper "opera singer's" but there are a few Proper opera singer's that I find easy to listen too.There are many crossover singer's I am a fan of hayley,Katherine Jenkins ,Russell Watson,Keedie,Yulia (but she has only released in NZ)and so on .I have to say that Hayley,Russell,Katherine and Yulia are my fav singer's that is not likly to change.

[HWI]

Hi Steph,

Wait till you finally get to hear Holly Holyoake. She will definitely be another one for your list.

And then there is Taylor Caruso Kirk. WOW!!

Keith.

[stephch]

I am alway's willing to add more to my list but the artist I am a hugh fan of I would never stop being a fan of them.I know that there are alot of great singer's out there and I am alway's looking for new one's.

[HWI]

Hi Steph,

Then, I would recommend you take a look at the following two websites:

For Holly Holyoake
www.holly-holyoake-international.com

and for Taylor Caruso Kirk
taylorkirk.bravehost.com

I would be interested to know what you think.

Now, to get back on topic. Odyssey is complete and they begin mastering the album in the morning. The excitement begins to grow ever faster.

Keith.

[roger]

stephch said:

I have to say that Hayley,Russell,Katherine and Yulia are my fav singer's that is not likly to change.

Hi Stephanie,

I was a fan of several singers and groups for years and I never thought that would change. Then Hayley came along and my whole life changed.

Roger

[stephch]

It is very hard for me to chage my like's and dislike's .There are over 50 singer's and musicain's I really like in many kind's of music classical,classical crossover ,celtic,rock,pop etc. Some I am a fan of some I just enjoy there music I can not just be a fan of a few people .Not to say there are not people I lost interest in.

[Dave]

Hi folks,

Although the Japan tracklisting given at the start of this thread has now slightly changed (see the link in my signature line below), we now know that Odyssey does not, so far, seem to qualify for the UK classical charts. But from what I found out yesterday, Hayley still wants it in there and hasn't given up by any means.

I'd better not say any more for now, except that when Hayley is determined to achieve something, she does tend to succeed (!) and I see no reason why things should be any different this time

This "classical chart" thing does, of course, affect only the UK version of Odyssey but it is very important as it could have a big impact on the total sales (Classic FM airplay !).

Dave

[Dave]

A few of us are wondering who and what decides what albums get into the classical charts so as I know some (but not all) of the rules, I'll say what I know. Each country has its own chart rules obviously, and crossover is normally excluded from the classical chart in NZ, Japan, Germany and the US. Crossover is normally allowed in the classical chart in Oz, and is obviously allowed in the Classical Crossover chart in the US.

The problem is the UK, where 60% of tracks must be "classical" (maybe the other 40% could be punk rock or whatever?!) so some crossover albums qualify and others don't. Unfortunately, some of the tracks Hayley and Decca think are classical haven't been accepted as classical by the charts people, that's what is now being sorted out for Odyssey and it looks like they've found a way to do it. It looks like they need 8 classical tracks on the UK version, at least three more than on the other versions.

I've heard that the UK classical rules say individual tracks must be written by a recognised composer of classical music (some modern composers are OK, such as Patrick Hawes I think). Classical arrangements of pop songs are not normally allowed. Electronic sounds and "pop" style beats can't be added to classical songs. Show tunes don't normally count, etc., etc. Traditional songs, well i think the charts people have discretion on those and they look at the arrangement etc. but it's probably down to whoever is on the committee at the time! I know that the present classical charts chairman is much tougher on this than his predecessor, which probably explains why things like Pokarekare Ana were allowed last time, and might not be nowadays.

A good example would be the UK Pure tracklisting, we know Hine e Hine had to be included twice to get it in the classical chart! Here is what I think each of the tracks were (pop or classical). There are 13 tracks and 8 needed to be classical (8/13 is 61%):

1. Cla. Pokarekare Ana (Traditional)
2. Cla. Never Say Goodbye (from 'Pavane' by Ravel)
3. Pop. Who Painted the Moon Black? (by Nianell)
4. Cla. River of dreams (from 'Winter' by Vivaldi)
5. Cla. Benedictus (Karl Jenkins)
6. Cla. Hine e Hine (Te Rangi Pai)
7. Pop. Dark Waltz (Matteo Saggese/Umberto Morasca)
8. Cla. Amazing Grace (Traditional)
9. Cla. In Trutina (Carmina Burana by Orff)
10. Pop Beat of your heart (Martin)
11. Pop. Heaven (Hardiman)
12. Pop. Wuthering Heights (Bush)
13. Cla. Hine e Hine (extended mix - Te Rangi Pai)

So 8 classical, 5 pop. Does anyone disagree with the mix as I listed it? (the total numbers will be right). If we can agree on Pure, maybe we can go on to work out the UK version of Odyssey!

Cheers, Dave

[roger]

That is amazing, Dave. This very evening, I have been studying the track listing of the original UK version of Pure to try to work out which the 8 classical tracks were. I came to the conclusion that 'Amazing Grace' would not be one of them. I agree with the other seven in your list although one or two of them are, perhaps, open to debate.

If the current classical charts chairman is tougher than his predecessor, which tracks from Pure would still be accepted as classical? Would we just be left with 'Benedictus' and 'In Trutina' or isn't he quite that harsh?

Roger

[stephch]

I think she is going to have a very hard time to get on the chart even if they add two more song's that are classical .I also think katherine would have a hard time too .

out of this tracklisting I would only call 3 of the song's classical

1) Prayer
2) Never Saw Blue
3) Dell'Amore Non Si Sa
4) Ave Maria by Caccini Classical
5) Both Sides Now
6) What You Never Know (Won't Hurt You)
7) May It Be
8) Quanta Qualia Classical
9) Bachianas Brasilieras classical
10) She Moves Through The Fair
11) I Say Grace
12) My Heart Belongs To You

[Dave]

roger said:

That is amazing, Dave. This very evening, I have been studying the track listing of the original UK version of Pure to try to work out which the 8 classical tracks were. I came to the conclusion that 'Amazing Grace' would not be one of them. I agree with the other seven in your list although one or two of them are, perhaps, open to debate.
If the current classical charts chairman is tougher than his predecessor, which tracks from Pure would still be accepted as classical? Would we just be left with 'Benedictus' and 'In Trutina' or isn't he quite that harsh?
Roger

Hi Roger, great minds think (almost!) alike! My theory is that if you pick the pop tracks from Pure, what's left must be classical. I picked the five pop ones I did because none of them are by "recognised classical composers", well I don't think so anyway. Dark Waltz I'd like to be classical but isn't it by Frank Musker? He's more of a celtic composer, isn't he? Not sure. I think the committee's discretion probably comes with traditional songs (no known composer) so with a heavily orchestral arrangement, they used to let them count as classical, maybe they still do.

Songs like River of Dreams and Never Say Goodbye should still be OK because of the classical composers and orchestral backing. Amazing Grace, that's an odd one - maybe it was counted as classical because many established classical singers have included it as part of their repertoire? If you didn't have A.G. as classical, what did you have in its place?

Steph, I'll have a think about the list you posted - there are at least a couple of extra classical ones that Hayley's recorded for Odyssey, so we can add them and try to make the 8 classical. Then, we have to decide which pop songs are going to be dropped!

Cheers, Dave

[roger]

Hi Dave,

I didn't have anything in place of Amazing Grace. That's why I was one short and therefore couldn't understand how Pure was accepted into the classical charts in the first place. Because of that, I assumed A G had to be the eighth.

I think I said somewhere that 'She Moved Through the Fair' is likely to be dropped. That's what Steve told me at Hampton Court. I don't know what the others might be.

Roger