Repitition of Crossover

[nicola]

After obtaining yet another version of Nella Fantasia today, I decided to have a little count of how many versions I have of each standard. I did this with my Windows Media Player - goodness knows how many more I have on CD! I found loads with four or three versions, but decided to only select songs that had 5 or more versions. Bear in mind there are several versions of Ave Maria.

I would be happy if I never saw these titles on an album ever again:

DOUBLE DIGITS
Ave Maria = 40
Pie Jesu = 22
Amazing Grace = 18
Time To Say Goodbye = 16
The Prayer (Foster) - 15
You Raise Me Up = 14
Somewhere - 13
Nella Fantasia = 12
Nessun Dorma = 12
O Mio Babbino Caro = 12
The Phantom of the Opera = 11
Silent Night = 11
All I Ask of You = 10
The Music of the Night = 10

NINE
La Luna/Song to the Moon
Somewhere/Over the Rainbow
Panis Angelicus
O Holy Night

EIGHT
Bailero
Caruso
Cinema Paridiso
Flower Duet
S/he Moved Through the Fair
Memory
Lascia Ch'io Pianga
Scarborough Fair
Who Wants to Live Forever
Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again
You'll Never Walk Alone
Nocturne

SEVEN
La Wally/Ebben...?
May It Be
Fields of Gold
Walking in the Air
Abide With Me
Bridge Over Troubled Water
Adagio
Agnus Dei
Pavane

SIX
One Fine Day/Un Bel Di
Aranjuez
Be Still My Soul
Angel (MacLachlan)
Angels (Williams)
Benedictus
Granada
How Can I Keep From Singing?
I Believe
Habañera
Jerusalem
Miserere
Shenendoah
Songbird
The Water is Wide

FIVE
Canto Della Terra
Danny Boy
Don't Cry For Me Argentina
Going Home
Hallelujah
I Still Haven't Found What I Am Looking For
I Vow To Thee My Country
In Paradisum
In the Bleak Midwinter
In Trutina
Kashmir
Morning has Broken
Nature Boy
Now We Are Free
O Sole Mio
The Rose
Sancta Maria
Sancta Lucia
Stranger In Paradise
Va Pensiero
Whistle Down the Wind

What do you think of these standards? Do you like to hear these over and over again? Do you think they are stagnating the genre?

I know my case may be extreme, as I have so many crossover CDs, but this is why I am so tired of these songs - they were lovely the first time, perhaps made a bit more special the second time, but I don't want to hear them again after that. :/

[martindn]

To be brutally blunt, I enjoy hearing Hayley sing them, both live and on record. I don't often listen to anyone else's versions of anything that Hayley has recorded. When I do that I find it very hard to avoid comparing those other versions with Hayley's, unfavourably. And that spoils my enjoyment.

Martin

[Elliot Kane]

I must admit, I'm a lot like Martin in this. I don't listen to a huge number of Crossover artists anyway, but if I've heard a Hayley version of a song then it's very rare for any other artist to sound anything other than inferior by comparison. Even young Faryl, much as I love her singing, should try to avoid that comparison as much as possible.

Doesn't seem quite fair, I know, but Hayley just sets the benchmark so high that most can't even approach it.

As for the Crossover standards - I think that's the main weakness of the genre, honestly. Essentially, almost every song is simply a cover version of something about a billion other people have sung on stage, screen or album. And often all three. The voices may be beautiful, but the lack of originality can hurt the overall product.

I think the genre as a whole restricts itself far too much (Which is why I love to see Hayley break the mould by doing the Sings Japanese Songs albums and the odd original track here and there (And yes, this post is probably going to be a huge paean to how wonderful Hayley is). I love to see her setting the standard in ALL ways, not just with her voice.

As a sidenote, I can't help noticing Robbie Williams' Angels on your list and shuddering in horror. It's one of those songs where any cover will be vastly inferior to the original and anyone covering it is clearly not thinking too well. Jessica Simpson proved that... And I advise you NOT to look for her version unless you want a bad headache and a temper for the rest of the day. It really is that bad. It's Robbie's song and it needs him to sing it.

Overall, though, I think your list probably shows why Crossover artists seldom have immense popular appeal. Too much of it is just 'same old, same old'.

[martindn]

Hi Elliot,

Yes, you are right. I don't think anyone should consider recording a well covered song like most of these unless they can bring something new to it. Or even a not so well covered song if there is a definitive version.

Hayley gets away with it becuse her versions are simply the best there is. I get the feeling with Hayley, that if she can't improve on the best version of a song that there is, she doesn't try.

Amazingly, she even takes on such songs as Wuthering Heights, Songbird and I Know you by Heart, all songs associated very strongly with someone else. And she improves on them, so it was worth her while recording them. Even "Over the Rainbow", in its Celtic Woman incarnation, where although Hayley was not the lead singer, she absolutely dominates that song from the backing vocals. Whenever I hear it, it is Hayley's voice that I am listening to. So Elliott, you are not the only one who raves about how wonderful Hayley is.

So here is a challenge. Can anyone think of any song that anyone sings better than Hayley? I can think of just one I think, and in that case Hayley was standing in for the other artist who is a very fine singer , and Hayley has never recorded that song. Hayley was singing in an unfamiliar language, the other artist speaks it fluently, but despite that made a very creditable effort.

Martin

[nicola]

Hello Martin

I'm glad that Hayley has that effect on you, but it's not true for everyone, so it's not safe to assume that 'Hayley gets away with it' as such. Hayley is attacked on this score as are the rest of crossover artists.

Personally, I skip a lot of Hayley's material, because so much of it are standards. I never play her first two domestic albums for this reason, though they are performed beautifully for someone her age (or any age, for that matter) but it doesn't mean I enjoy listening to them. I didn't enjoy Treasure at all (apart from the originals!) I adore Hayley's original material, and when she throws in songs that create an eclectic feel to an album (such as 'Pure' and 'Prayer') I know she is a very capable artist with a beautiful voice to match. I feel she is wasted on songs like 'Scarborough Fair', but that's just me and my tastes. Over all though, I feel that to keep recording these songs over and over, will stagnate the genre, and will die out before it will be able to move forward. This alarms me, as it has so much potential.

For me, it's not so much about changing to vocals of a standard, but it's the arrangement. If it's just a vocal difference, it doesn't matter how pretty the vocal is, it's still the same old song that I've heard a thousand times. If you drastically change the arrangement and structure of a song, however? That makes it refreshing and different.

I know this has been touched upon in other threads, but it just annoys me about CC music stays so close to the standards. Fair enough if they want to do covers, but they could at least do an unexpected cover, or adapt a different classical piece into a song (like how 'Figlio Perduto' was made from Beethoven's 7th Symphony). There is so much potential out there, such a vast amount of different soundscapes in classical music - I've heard Nessun Dorma, thanks. Find a different aria to perform; there are plenty of them!

[Elliot Kane]

Martin...

I think better than Hayley is not possible for any other artist I've ever heard based solely on vocal talent. However, once or twice she may have been excelled in other directions, such as the amount of appropriate feeling put into a song.

The only example I can think of (And yes, this IS a matter of taste, so I know many others may disagree was Susan Boyle singing I Dreamed A Dream at her first audition for Britain's Got Talent. She sounded like she was singing for her life and totally living out the song. When Hayley sung that song live, she was 15 and while she still had the most sublime voice imaginable, she lacked the depths of life experience to fully project the song's deeper meaning, IMO. Not that her version isn't better than almost everyone else anyway, of course, but still...

With a lot of the more religious songs Hayley seems to favour, such as Ave Maria and Abide With Me, the idea is to get as close to angelic as possible, and in those types of song she may be literally unsurpassable.

***

Nicola...

Have you considered that you might perhaps be listening to too many Crossover singers? I don't mean that in any way insultingly, but I know myself that listening to the same genre a bit too much can cause it to grate regardless of the talent involved (Or at least it has that effect on me).

[nicola]

Elliot: I am all to aware that I listen to too many classical crossover singers. But I listen to a lot of different genres too. And listening to so many enables me to pick out the most distinctive of the lot, rather than just happening across one or two and thinking that they are amazing simply because they are the only ones I have heard.

Hayley is in my top ten, anyway. XD

[Jillian]

Well, I might as well pitch in here!

When I find a new Classical Crossover singer, the first thing I do is to get on You Tube and see if they've sung any songs that I know. When I find a 'new voice' I'm really keen to see if they've sung any of the classical songs that I love. I rather guess that it's the same for a large number of general consumers -- they all want to hear the voice that they love sing the songs that they love.

I remember being very excited a couple of years ago when I realised that Hayley had recorded an album with all the Celtic classics. Though, I do have to admit that Celtic Treasure has been on too heavy rotation both in my CD player and in live concerts by now, so some new material is definitely welcome! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

Though, I do think that I have a very different view from Nicola on all of this. I recall that Nicola didn't rate Katherine Jenkins' 'Sacred Arias' very highly as the content is rather unoriginal. However, that's my favourite KJ CD because it has all the songs that I know and love on it! It mightn't be original in itself, but it does fit nicely with all my other music.

That said, I'm also a member of the great unwashed with this whole thing as I'm hardly an expert. I suppose it all must be commercially viable and people must want to buy it otherwise the record companies wouldn't be pumping them out.

P.S I'll also have to guiltily admit to looking down that list and thinking 'Oooh, wish Hayley would record that!'

[Elliot Kane]

Nicola...

Would I be right in thinking you are 'music-centric' rather than 'voice-centric'?

I am very much voice-centric, and while I have listened to a reasonable number of Crossover singers, such as Charlotte Church, Katherine Jenkins, etc, most of them leave me utterly cold. It's not that they can't sing (Far from it in most cases!) but that (As Martin put it so well) they bring nothing new to the song, IMO. Their voices are great, but cookie-cutter. The few I really like are highly distinctive, at least to my ear.

Like you, I listen to many other genres (Being one of the few people I know who can happily listen to Hayley one second, Iron Maiden the next and (Jazz singer) Victoria Hart after that! ). I have different standards of 'good' for each of them, of course, but in almost all cases I think a distinctive voice is a bigger draw to me than anything else.

If you're music-centric, then the most important thing would be the tune, so an original arrangement would be of far greater interest to you than an original vocal sound.

***

Jillian...

The only thing I would claim to be an expert in, musically, is knowing what I like when I hear it! So you're probably more expert than I am, at least

[nicola]

Almost, Elliot. The voice is somewhat important to me. I do have to like the voice, most definitely, but the voice does not change a song, an arrangement does. I don't like 'Walking in the Air'. It doesn't matter who sings it. I just don't like it. That is, until, Nightwish came along and made it awesome.

As for the songs that I do like? Well, you are right, they are ruined by constant re-recordings. There are very few that I am interested in hearing again.

Jillian: loved your post. I have never actually read an opinion like that before, thanks for giving me your opinion.

[Elliot Kane]

Nicola...

I think we are kind of opposites, then. With me, it's not that I don't pay attention to the music, and if it's bad I DO notice, but rather that the voice can transform something I don't like into something I do.

Granted, some genres (Screamo, Thrash, Rap, to name the most obvious) are pretty near irredeemable in my eyes, but with most songs I think the right singer could gain my interest.

I even have a recent example of this. I really don't like Tears For Fears. Never have, never will. But one of my favourite up and coming artists (Alex Roots, for the curious) recently did an acoustic cover of Mad World. I have never heard a version of that song I liked. Hated the original. Loathed the Gary Jules version. Yet I love her version. Just think it's great. She's no Hayley and she won't blow anyone away, but there's just something about her voice I like.

I can certainly understand how the constant song repetition in Crossover music drives you crazy, though, I must admit. SO many of the young US male Rock singers could change groups without anyone ever noticing that it makes me want to scream, sometimes. I hate voices that don't stand out and just sound like everyone else. If you're that way with the music part, I feel your pain...

[Jono]

Sept 11, 2009 23:11:47 GMT Jillian said:

When I find a new Classical Crossover singer, the first thing I do is to get on You Tube and see if they've sung any songs that I know. When I find a 'new voice' I'm really keen to see if they've sung any of the classical songs that I love. I rather guess that it's the same for a large number of general consumers -- they all want to hear the voice that they love sing the songs that they love.

Yes, I'm exactly the same, Jillian. Though, I guess I am fairly new to the genre. I would rather hear songs I'm familiar with to judge how good a singer is...I personally couldn't care less about their original material until they have some appeal to me. I ordered two All Angels CD's today after hearing a few songs I really like covered by them (it just took a few mins to convince me to order them!).

I do know what it is like getting sick of songs, though. I heard the song "My Heart Will Go On" too many times when Titanic came out...I don't know if I could ever like it! And while "Amazing Grace" is an amazing song, it has been way too overdone!

Elliot - I'm very much a music person. I've always only liked music which has instruments involved, and I've never been too fussed with the vocal talent as long as the vocalist (if there is one) can sing. But with Hayley's music, it is all in the voice. I'm sure her music would be almost as good if it was all a capella.

[comet]

Sept 11, 2009 22:01:57 GMT nicola said:

Personally, I skip a lot of Hayley's material, because so much of it are standards. I never play her first two domestic albums for this reason, though they are performed beautifully for someone her age (or any age, for that matter) but it doesn't mean I enjoy listening to them. I didn't enjoy Treasure at all (apart from the originals!)

Before Treasure was released, I saw Danny Boy listed, I had a "I think I'm going to puke moment" an "Oh Noooooo, not another version of Danny Boy" The song that has been sung badly by a million drunken uncles at weddings and funerals and 21st birthdays.
I thought this would be the first Hayley song I would "SKIP" past when the CD was playing, That I would transfer Treasure to CDRs without Danny Boy on it.

Then I got one of the promo 5 track cds on E bay,
I let Danny Boy play with some trepidation, my fears were dispelled almost instantly, I immediately forgot all the horrible renditions of the song I had heard before and it became for me one of the highlights of Hayley's live performances here in Ireland, Derry, Belfast, Dublin and Limerick.

[martindn]

HiPaul, Nicola, Jillian, Elliot, Jono,

I remember Hayley singing Danny Boy in the Buxton Opera House last year, for me it was the highlight of the concert.

AndJono, in my experience, having heard Hayley sing a capella, I would say that the less that is around her the better. Her voice on its own is STUNNING. Nicola, I don't care about the song to much, for me, with Hayley it is THAT VOICE that blows me away.

I don't feel like that about all music for sure. In fact most of the non-Hayley music I listen to is all about composition and arrangement, and much less about the performers. Well that's what I think, but when I listen to Yes or Genesis, I wonder how much of my enjoyment is due to the unique personalities of the performers. Peter Gabriel, for example, I love not for the quality of his voice so much as for the way he expresses himself All those songs where he sings the parts of lots of different characters, and they all sound different.

I suppose that with most classical music, the performers are secondary and the music is all important. Pop music is different, since pop fans are fans of an artist rather than a composer or arranger.

ISTM Nicola, that CC is more pop than classical, in that the artist is important. That is the only way that so many different versions of the same songs could be viable.

I have a thing about Hayley I admit. I love her voice so much that I don't want to waste time listening to other singers inevitably inferior versions of the same songs. So the other stuff I listen too is usualy completely different, Orchestral, male vocal or progessive rock. I respect Katherine and Faryl, but neither comes close to Hayey in my opinion.

I bought a cheap album by Mario Lanza on Friday. It is certinly not Hifi, but the sheer quality of that fine voice shines through. Was he the first crossover artist? Back in the 1950s? He certainly had a pop-like culture of personality, singing popular operatic arias. But he never had much of a career singing "real" opera. So perhaps he was more "pop" than opera.

But then Mario Lanza was thought of at the time as a successor to Enrico Caruso, who was a real opera singer who embraced recording technology. By that means he became well known. Caruso too had a cult of personality. So was he too crossover?

Interesting isn't it?

Martin

[Elliot Kane]

Martin...

I think you may be right, regarding Caruso & Lanza. I certainly love Lanza, and it is a source of enduring pain to me that I will never truly get to hear his voice at its best due to the low quality of the recording equipment in his time. He has an incredible voice - certainly the best male singer I've ever heard. Were it possible for him to duet with Hayley, I could die a happy man on the strength of that alone...

AFAIK, nothing Caruso did survives. A definite shame as I would love to hear him, too.