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Post by chrisw on Oct 26, 2008 23:21:59 GMT
No Martin, I feel the same. When I was looking at the picture of Hayley putting on the vest, the only thought in my mind was 'Oh my dear how could you still smile while you put on that heavy vest in that messy place.' But now she's back safe I think we can all lie back a bit. Somehow I think we worried more than the lady herself did.  Tin I think she was taking the vest off in that picture (the caption on the MOD site mentioned her "undressing" from it). But your basic point holds, of course, although the part of the trip that worried me was the flying in and out of Bazra -- I think that might be when the vest was worn. That is what would frighten the blazes out of me -- being in that aircraft in and out of Iraq. At the actual base on the ground you may be relatively safe. (Although the key word there is "relatively".) I must say that I am very impressed that Bedlam contacted HWI too. Stuart etc, The vest in the photo was part of a photo-shoot, and belonged to one of the rock-apes, sorry, the RAF Regiment guys there. Hayley, along with all personnel in theatre, was issued with a jacket and helmet - in her case it was a navy blue one which identified her as a civvie. As for flying in and out of Basrah airport, it's a lot safer than it used to be. Without saying too much about the airfield defences - which are my primary role until the end of next year - it's actually more dangerous crossing the road in any major city-centre in the UK. My first flight into Basrah in 2004 was the first time they'd flown in during the day. We flew in two RAF C-130 Hercules aircraft, the same model as the one that was in the media the other week, being referred to by the coroner as unsafe. They lined up on the first aircraft, and when we, in the second one, approached the airfield, they launched a rocket and mortar attack. My introduction to Iraq was taxiing towards the terminal with explosions all around, and spending the next three hours in a very hot and stuff shelter. Needless to say, it's a little more civilised these days.. |
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Post by Richard on Oct 27, 2008 9:37:17 GMT
Hello again everybody. I'm going to quote part of an article from MoD Oracle[/b][/url], because I haven't seen the last paragraph before. Click on the link to read the article in full. Richard |
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Post by stuartj on Oct 28, 2008 21:58:34 GMT
Stuart etc, The vest in the photo was part of a photo-shoot, and belonged to one of the rock-apes, sorry, the RAF Regiment guys there. Hayley, along with all personnel in theatre, was issued with a jacket and helmet - in her case it was a navy blue one which identified her as a civvie. As for flying in and out of Basrah airport, it's a lot safer than it used to be. Without saying too much about the airfield defences - which are my primary role until the end of next year - it's actually more dangerous crossing the road in any major city-centre in the UK. My first flight into Basrah in 2004 was the first time they'd flown in during the day. We flew in two RAF C-130 Hercules aircraft, the same model as the one that was in the media the other week, being referred to by the coroner as unsafe. They lined up on the first aircraft, and when we, in the second one, approached the airfield, they launched a rocket and mortar attack. My introduction to Iraq was taxiing towards the terminal with explosions all around, and spending the next three hours in a very hot and stuff shelter. Needless to say, it's a little more civilised these days.. Thanks for the clarification. Being a civie I may be more frightened about aircraft than is warranted. |
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Post by stuartj on Oct 28, 2008 22:08:43 GMT
Hello again everybody. I'm going to quote part of an article from MoD Oracle[/b][/url], because I haven't seen the last paragraph before. Click on the link to read the article in full. Richard[/quote]Thanks for that quote. It's a very interesting one. It tells ua a lot about where Hayley is coming from in this whole business, and that she is not just a young woman caught up in the glamour of it all, but one thinking a bit more deeply about it and who understands the human cost involved. It is easy to gloss over such things when one is young. I must say I was astonished to hear that the average age of servicemen in Iraq was only 20! |
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Post by grant on Oct 28, 2008 23:59:31 GMT
It tells ua a lot about where Hayley is coming from in this whole business, and that she is not just a young woman caught up in the glamour of it all, but one thinking a bit more deeply about it and who understands the human cost involved. Hi Stuart and everyone There's also the fact that a relative of Hayley's fought and died in the First World War and not long ago Hayley visited his grave for the first time at Paschendaal. I've always felt that Hayley thinks very deeply about a lot of things that many of us would brush aside as 'can't deal with that' and I believe it's an attribute that makes Hayley the very special person she is. I'm sure Hayley's experiences in Basra recently will stay with her a long time and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her pen some song lyrics as she relives some of those experiences. Best wishes Grant |
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Post by fusilier23 on Oct 29, 2008 13:14:57 GMT
Make sure those of you going to concerts in early November wear your poppy with pride as the lady requests ! And make sure it's a red one, wear a white one and you risk getting beaten up, or so I have been told. All silliness aside, Hayley, like KJ, who also went to Basra, is to be commended for her role in supporting the UK forces wherever they go, particularly in this mission against the greatest evil of the century so far, and doing it without becoming political. It would not surprise me is she penned some lyrics about this experience, something about standing a lonely post in the desert with only the wind for company, or something like that, maybe? One question I have, though, is that she talks about "our" armed forces. Does "our:" refer to the forces of the Commonwealth, then? Because if she's talking about the UK forces as "ours" that could be interpreted to say she considers herself a UK person, and I didn't think that was the case. |
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Martin
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Post by Martin on Oct 29, 2008 14:37:00 GMT
One question I have, though, is that she talks about "our" armed forces. Does "our:" refer to the forces of the Commonwealth, then? Because if she's talking about the UK forces as "ours" that could be interpreted to say she considers herself a UK person, and I didn't think that was the case. Hi Fusilier I would say almost certainly that Hayley was not just referring to UK forces but to at least Commonwealth and perhaps all International forces. After all, they are all serving the same purpose and in most cases having casualties of war. For the same reasons I believe that Hayley is attending the Festival of Remberance next week to honour the Armed Forces from all nations. Best wishes Martin |
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Post by grant on Oct 29, 2008 15:36:35 GMT
One question I have, though, is that she talks about "our" armed forces. Does "our:" refer to the forces of the Commonwealth, then? Because if she's talking about the UK forces as "ours" that could be interpreted to say she considers herself a UK person, and I didn't think that was the case. Hi Fusilier I would say almost certainly that Hayley was not just referring to UK forces but to at least Commonwealth and perhaps all International forces. After all, they are all serving the same purpose and in most cases having casualties of war. For the same reasons I believe that Hayley is attending the Festival of Remberance next week to honour the Armed Forces from all nations. Best wishes Martin I totally agree Martin. As you say, all forces deployed are there for the same reason and I don't think for a minute Hayley would single out any one group in anything she said. "Our" in this context means all service personnel I am sure. Best wishes Grant |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Oct 29, 2008 16:01:05 GMT
Yes, our (the people's) armed forces. Hayley could hardly say "your" armed forces when addressing a group of them. Anyway, The Queen is head of the armed forces of NZ and of the UK, Fusilier, I'm surprised you didn't think of all that.  Suggesting that Hayley thinks of herself as British not a Kiwi is like suggesting that I think of myself as a English Southerner because I've lived here for over 30 years: outrageous! Once a Northerner, always a Northerner! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif Dave |
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Post by martindn on Oct 29, 2008 22:40:14 GMT
And as for me, I still support Peterborough United, and when they play Leicester City later this season I will be cheering for then, depite living in Leicester for over 40 years, much longer than I lived near Peterborough. I would support Leicester against anybody else though.
And that is how Hayley is I'm sure. Nationality is not what matters, it is principles that are at stake. There are people of Hayley's age out there, as she says, that are risking their lives to try to make the world a better place. And whatever their nationality, I'm sure she supports that.
Martin
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Post by fusilier23 on Oct 29, 2008 23:26:21 GMT
That is true, Prince Charles did wear his uniform as a Kiwi Air Marshal for the dedication of the war memorial when Hayley sang, so I guess all the anglophone Commonwealth nations are part of "Her Majesty's Forces."
Did not know there was a rivalry between the north and south of England. How intense would it get, say, if Lincoln played Canterbury in football?
And yes, I'm sure at any UK/NZ event Hayley will ALWAYS be cheering for the All Blacks, but here she is cheering for ALL the Commonwealth troops.
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Post by martindn on Oct 29, 2008 23:35:09 GMT
Hi Fusilier,
Actually in football perhaps the opposite is true. Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur have grounds on the same road in North London, yet there is no rivalry in football that is more intense. (sorry this is OT)
Martin
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Post by chrisw on Oct 30, 2008 0:06:47 GMT
There's also the fact that a relative of Hayley's fought and died in the First World War and not long ago Hayley visited his grave for the first time at Paschendaal. I've always felt that Hayley thinks very deeply about a lot of things that many of us would brush aside as 'can't deal with that' and I believe it's an attribute that makes Hayley the very special person she is. I'm sure Hayley's experiences in Basra recently will stay with her a long time and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her pen some song lyrics as she relives some of those experiences. Best wishes Grant Hi Grant, I was there last year in Belgium as Caite and I drove over for the event. We stood with many others in attendance as the events of the day unfolded, and then afterwards went to find Hayley. After she finished speaking with various people, she and Gerald pointed out to us the name of the relative who had served there. I was speaking with Gerald later and one thing I said was that only since leaving NZ, I've discovered just how great a part both NZ and Oz played in the wars of the last century. It's not something that is really covered in kiwi schools - at least when I was there. I think that my experiences over the past few years have given me a greater awareness of life, and of war, and standing there that day whilst the ceremony progressed, I wore both my medals and those of my great-grandfather whose battalion served there - probably within yards of where the kiwis fought. I used to think that people like Hayley who went out there, spent a few hours and then came home had no real idea about what life is like out there. It took me a while to realise that this isn't about the time they spend there, or even the troops out there, but rather raising the awareness of those back home in the hope that the troops are shown more support both upon their return and throughout their lives. Over the past year, we have seen more and more parades by returning soldiers; something that was unheard of just a few short years ago. People like Hayley, in my opinion, do as much to show the personal face of those who serve as the parades for the returning troops. On a side note - Roger, going more off-topic - Remembrance Parades will be held on Sunday the 9th. Whatever city, town or village you're in, please come along and support those of us who will be marching. It really does mean a lot. |
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Post by chrisw on Oct 30, 2008 0:13:33 GMT
All silliness aside, Hayley, like KJ, who also went to Basra, is to be commended for her role in supporting the UK forces wherever they go, particularly in this mission against the greatest evil of the century so far, and doing it without becoming political. It would not surprise me is she penned some lyrics about this experience, something about standing a lonely post in the desert with only the wind for company, or something like that, maybe? Actually, most of the posts are gone now. A few years ago, we had quite a few camps dotted around, but most have been disbanded as the areas have been handed back to the Iraqi people. The same applies to this "greatest evil". Doesn't exist. Iraq is being handed back to the Iraqi people. There will always be issues out there, but a lot of it comes from those living there, or those within the region. This isn't a terrorist action, but rather a group of insurgents carrying out localised activities, albeit with outside influences. Huge difference. Please don't confuse Iraq with Afghanistan. Trust me, they're not the same, not by a long shot. And the "wind for company" is actually one of the most soothing experiences you could ever have. Walking around outside in the middle of the night, the breeze brushing against you as you realise just how cold the desert can become.. the stars shining brightly, yet no other light except for that of the burning oil wells in the distance. When that country is peaceful, you never want to leave. |
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Post by fusilier23 on Oct 30, 2008 1:56:09 GMT
As someone who has followed both wars from the start and has an advanced degree in history, believe me, I know Iraq and Afghanistan are VERY different areas of the world and have sustained VERY different conflicts over the centuries, and that includes the current wars, the former of which was a straight-up battle initially followed by low-level conflict, the latter of which was guerilla conflict pretty much all the way through, with very few set-piece battles.
I know things are winding down now, as hard-fought gains finally bear fruit and the nation finally returns to the people it was stolen from by a tyrant, but it must never be forgotten that was achieved by a lot of brave soldiers, Iraqi, US, UK, and others, standing those lonely (and not so lonely) posts for about four years now, and some of them not seeing the end of the watch.
I think I should explain myself a little more, by the greatest evil I don't mean terrorism, at least not political terrorism. That's been around since before the Roman Empire, and it's a means to an end. I also don't mean Islam, the vast majority of the world's Muslims are ordinary working folks. By the greatest evil I mean tyranny, particularly the kind that goes with an unchecked will to power and without a conscience, and you found that in both these nations. Oh, the names, the faces, and the slogans were different, but when you boil that all away, it all came down to one thing, the one, or the few who had power chose to use it to abuse the many who did not have it simply because they could. Cruelty and injury became ends in themselves.
Anyway, I better get off that soapbox before I get in trouble. I was just trying to whip up an image that could inspire a song, and the image of the brave soldier standing his post either in the cold peaks of Afghanistan or the desert night of Iraq, with no sound but the wind, far from everything he loves, yet doing it because he is faithful to his oath, his nation, his commander-in-chief, and his cause, I thought, was a good place to start.
I have faith that Hayley can certainly take this experience and make a song worth remembering from it, hopefully the kind the world is still singing long after we're no longer in it.
For what it's worth Chris, I salute your efforts, as we come close to that day we're supposed to remember all veterans.
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