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Post by loveyou on Sept 28, 2008 2:36:20 GMT
It's not easy to be a good artist especially in today's atmosphere. there were many things they couldn't surpass by themselves.
If you don't like some ways of them, you just point out for them with goodwill, Please not to hint or provoke something they couldn't bear responsibility.
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Post by stuartj on Sept 28, 2008 10:02:36 GMT
Hi Stuart, The only reason i mentioned Meav is that you credited that duet with Hayley to Fleming - and then went on to mock Fleming.... I agree that future debate is likely pointless. Jon Pardon? "That duet with Hayley"? There is no duet. You didn't watch it did you!  It is Hayley on her own and much more recent than the duet with Meav. It is an effortless performance as opposed to Fleming who seems to be struggling in the "Summertime" clip. I accept Fleming's skills. There are things she can do that Hayley can't, but I don't accept that she is more powerful and louder than Hayley. I am pretty sure (though not certain) it is the other way around. A busker friend and a couple of other musician friends I have scoff at the notion of opera singers being so loud and powerful. And what Fleming can do that Hayley can't are matters that she has practiced for years and she is in her late 30's at least (probably older) and they are skills that are not so important to Hayley. It is like as, dame Malvina said, comparing a cricketer to a rugby player. By the same token, I don't think it makes much sense to say that Hayley is better than a good rock singer or a good rapper. Rappers get a bad press on YouTube and other singing forums, but are they attempting to sing well, and are normal standards really appropriate to them? I don't want to be all post-modern and say anything goes and there are no standards, just that we shouldn't compare chalk with cheese. Rap is a method of expression, and they are reaching and influencing people, and, arguably, at the coal face of society, as it were. Are the rappers any less socially significant than the opera singers? I don't think so; and the likes of the Beatles and the Rolling Stones have more influence on society than opera ever does (these days). Sorry to ramble on, but this is an off-topic thread now, so I figure I have rambling licence. (BTW, to help my linguistic research, does anyone here differentiate between "license" (verb) and "licence" (noun). |
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Post by stuartj on Sept 28, 2008 10:20:47 GMT
It's not easy to be a good artist especially in today's atmosphere. there were many things they couldn't surpass by themselves. If you don't like some ways of them, you just point out for them with goodwill, Please not to hint or provoke something they couldn't bear responsibility. I think I take your point. You are right, I shouldn't make comments that are personal about Renee Fleming or other opera singers. It is hypercritical of me, and I stand corrected. It is something I have accused many of the purists of (accurately I believe, although of course not all of them do it). My problem is not with the singers or artists themselves (apart from one or two that I believe I have good reason to personally dislike) but with those who are snobbish and pretentions about classical music. As one moderate purist himself said in an article, obnoxiously aggressive and snobbish purists do more damage to classical music than the crossover singers ever will. I actually have a lot of time for Bryn Terfel. I respect him and think he's a great character, and a very decent person. Bartoli seems very pleasant too. Renee Fleming seems a bit pretentious to me at times, but I don't really know that much about her. I have great respect for Careeras as a person. It is my intention to mock pretentiousness, pompousness, and inaccuracy rather than the singers themselves. Some of my recent remarks have been too personal, I concede. |
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Post by stuartj on Sept 28, 2008 10:37:20 GMT
Hi Stuart, The only reason i mentioned Meav is that you credited that duet with Hayley to Fleming - and then went on to mock Fleming.... I agree that future debate is likely pointless. Jon Jon, how many of those clips did you actually watch? Are you assuming that the Hayley clips are of her early versions of songs like Shenandoah and so on? Back in the days when she did the duet with Meave she was putting in much more effort in that duet than in the "Last Rose of Summer" in concert at Belfast, 2008, and in the Belfast clip her voice has matured markedly. The whole point, Jon, is that the clips of Hayley that I have linked to are of her very recently, when her voice has matured and is about twice as powerful as it was back in the days when she did that duet with Meave. If you think the Shenandoah clip is the one of Hayley's album, you couldn't be more wrong. There is a huge difference between the Hayley of the album and the Hayley of the clip in Belfast 2008. Like five years difference for a start. If the links were to Hayley's album versions of the songs or Hayley's duet with Meave there is no way I would say that her voice then was stronger than Fleming or the other singers I have linked to. For heaven's sake, Jon, everybody agrees that Hayley's voice has gained great strength in the last 18 months or so. If you are still thinking of her voice of the "pure" days, this would help explain a lot of what you are saying. I am talking about the "clarion-voiced" Hayley of 21-years-old, not the super-choir girl voice of the 16-year-old Hayley. Hint, Jon. Click the link and check, before deciding where it goes.  |
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Post by stuartj on Sept 28, 2008 11:07:32 GMT
Hi Stuart, The only reason i mentioned Meav is that you credited that duet with Hayley to Fleming - and then went on to mock Fleming.... I agree that future debate is likely pointless. Jon THERE IS NO DUET. CLICK THE LINK! I INTENDED THE LAST ROSE OF SUMMER PERFORMED SOLO AT BELFAST 2008 TO BE COMPARED TO FLEMING'S SUMMERTIME! Clips for JonJon, how many of these clips have you seen? There must be about 15 clips of Hayley doing "last Rose of Summer" on YouTube, not counting the duplicates. You seem to be assuming there is only one. These, and the Hayley links I posted above, are recent (2008) concerts, not from Hayley's albums, or her Celtic Woman days. You obviously didn't look at them, since you are rabbiting on about a duet with Meav that in no way reflects the current power of Hayley's voice. What makes you so certain that that is what I linked to, I can't understand. I do know the difference between Meav and Fleming. The Hayley of 2008 would blow Meav off the stage. Matakana nz.youtube.com/watch?v=5r6j16vdzAAPokarekare Ana - with orchestra nz.youtube.com/watch?v=nRXyeSXhfX8May It Be Belfast 2008 nz.youtube.com/watch?v=VU4SACzg4hQThe Last Rose of Summer NOT A DUET WITH MEAVE! nz.youtube.com/watch?v=kaMIly5G6xcShenandoah -- Very very different from her album version! nz.youtube.com/watch?v=JOQVUyfLd2cPokarekare Ana - yes another recent version, with Grant Tilley on piano and Fiona Pears on violin. nz.youtube.com/watch?v=rR68ayQHEF4Sonny - unusual because Hayley is accompanied by Hayley on piano. Search YouTube for "Hayley Westenra Belfast" to get the full concert. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 28, 2008 13:44:23 GMT
Slow down guys, this thread is treading on thin ice.
Dave
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Post by milewalker on Sept 28, 2008 15:10:07 GMT
Hi Stuart (and Dave) Smile guys  ...... That was my bad. I have heard/seen 95+ percent of the You Tube videos of Hayley. As Hayley has only done one duet of this song to my knowledge, I assumed you had mistaken Rene for Meav because of the way you phrased that. I should not have made that assumption. Another assumption that I am constantly trying to unmake is that everyone reads and remembers trivial points made in other parts of this forum as I do....I am always thinking that other things I said elsewhere provide background for my position in the current discussion, when more often than not they clearly dont. I have not only seen these videos but have also commented on most of them when they came up in discussion - though of course that may have been You Tube as well as here. Check the comments there. You will find I am almost as active there as I am here. There is no question that Hayley's voice has grown dramatically in the past two years. I am of split mind about whether or not that is a good or bad thing for her at the end of the day. On this site, we are able to appreciate Hayley not only for what she was, but what she has become. Unfortunately, I have the distinct impression that many people still feel that Pure was the best album she released, and that one reason for this is because the younger voice has a great deal of commercial appeal in its own right. This has nothing to do with the objective mechanics of her voice of course - but it was probably in the back of my mind in some of the responses, and may be contributing to some of the confusion here. I personally like both - the Hayley she was, and the Hayley she has become. But this issue does in my opinion cloud any discussion about the growth in her voice as I suspect that many people who bought Pure would not necessarily see this as a good thing. This is why I was trying to pin you down about the possible effect of formant frequency or the lack thereof. I think a lot of people like the kinder and gentler sound. ----------------- Regarding the Renee/Terfel Summertine link, I found Terfel much more impressive, because he was able to remove *some * of the opera from his voice. He would be surprisingly effective as a Broadway style baritone I think. I would have to study it to see exactly what all of the differences were, but I suspect this was done at some time after he performed Pokarekare Ana with Hayley at Faenol. (I would suggest you watch that video once just to see his neck muscles working ) I have always found him listenable (and btw another topic for a discussion someday is why many people find the operatic soprano more unpleasant than other types). I thought Rene oversang it somewhat - but that is what opera singers do and it wasnt unlistenable This being said, there are a couple of problems with the examples in general, as I am sure you already are aware. For example, all of them involve the use of amplification, and I think I agree with Comet above that this limits their use for comparison. In fact I am not even sure that two singers doing a duet can be compared in this way beyond a certain point because within certain limits one could be amped more than the other. Jon PS - If it is any consolation to you, I will cede the point that formant frequency can be used to sing over an orchestra. One problem I have is that my understanding of voice dynamics suggest that this should be harder for a soprano to do - but as always I could be wrong! Thanks for the discussion Stuart. Sorry for the confusion, Dave. |
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Post by martindn on Sept 28, 2008 20:50:06 GMT
Stuart,
I prefer rather than trying to analyse volume levels from those clips, to talk about which performances I enjoy the most, and which singer's voice I enjoy most.
For me Hayley is simply streets ahead of everyone else. Power, range, control and perfect pitch, she's got it! Most of the others don't come close. After Hayley, perhaps Meav, Sissel, Kathy, Charlotte on a good day. Your A/B comparisons are interesting for sure, and to my mind completely debunk the idea that opera singers are somehow superior in any way. I found Te Kanawa, Fleming and Bartoli the three least impressive singers among your selection.
But if you had included Dame Malvina, or Anna K I might have had a different opinion. It does however show that singers are singers, and the genre they choose is not any sort of indication of their quality. Freddy Mercury was, in my opinion, a great singer,and so was Pavarotti.
By the way, perhaps it is time that I went and listened to my new CD, that came with today's Mail on Sunday. They called in Ten Tenors, but perhaps a better title would be "Hayley's Duet Partners". Except I'm not sure she ever sang with Carreras, and I'm pretty sure she didn't partner Donimgo. But all the rest, yes.
Martin
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Post by roger on Sept 28, 2008 21:09:13 GMT
Except I'm not sure she ever sang with Carreras... Yes she did, Martin, on at least two occasions which I was fortunate enough to attend. That was in the Royal Albert Hall in December 2003 and Hampton Court in June 2005. She also sang 'Ave Maria' with him (and Bryn Terfel) at the Faenol Festival in the summer of 2003. Roger |
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Post by martindn on Sept 29, 2008 21:44:39 GMT
Hi Roger,
Thanks for that!
Yes before my time, that was in the year 1BH (Before Hayley) that's why I wasn't sure. I couldn't remember but there was doubt in the back of my mind about Carreras. If I had done my research properly I would have known that, since the Faenol Festival is mentioned on Pages 92 and 120 of "In her own voice".
Martin
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Post by Richard on Nov 6, 2008 9:34:20 GMT
These three posts have been moved from 'Songs of Praise - 2nd November 2008'. Thanks for sharing these songs. I always love hearing her sing Amazing Grace, especially lately. And it was nice to hear her sing Whispering Hope somewhere other than her album. But I've noticed that microphones and recording systems seem unable to project Hayley's "new" voice very clearly. Her voice sounds gorgeous these days, but I'm going to be disappointed if her CD recordings don't do her justice.
And when have you heard Hayley's new voice unamplified? She uses microphones and amplification at all her concerts...
Here is an example of her new voice -- look at the comments under it:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaMIly5G6xc
The new voice with its new maturity is plain there. And at the rest of the Belfast 2008 YouTube recordings.That's really not what I meant at all. I realize she uses a microphone, and don't think she should stop using it. I do wish I could have heard her sing at Picadilly when she sang without one. That would've been amazing.
The Youtube videos of Songs of Praise and of her singing Songbird on a morning show do not reflect her voice well enough. I'm comparing them to the Songbird sound clip that was put out when they first said there would be 3 new songs on the RoD album.
I think my stereo system just isn't capable of doing her voice justice. It's hard to explain why I think so; but I've never had problems with her other CDs. I agree with you about those particular YouTube clips. It may also have something to do with Hayley singing more softly on those songs, but there was another YouTube clip of songbird that seems to have gone now. I'm tempted to put it back (I downloaded it) because it is better than the one still there. I have a feeling that "toddclassical" may be someone associated with this forum. If so I'm sorry, but the videos uploaded to YouTube aren't good. The audio is inferior. I'd try to do them myself if there is a good recording of the original. The YouTube clips of Hayley at Belfast 2008 have great audio.
BTW, I remember someone saying they didn't know Hayley could sing without a microphone -- I'm not sure if it was you Libby. I don't mean to be rude, and I know it wasn't meant as such, but that is really an enormous insult to Hayley. Any amateur can sing along to a piano, there is nothing special about it. There were many at a church I used to go to who could sing along to a piano, and quite a few who could easily be heard in a very large hall. Projecting over an orchestra is more difficult, but I believe that can be learnt by most competent singers. There is simply no need for it outside of opera though, and less need there (you couldn't act and cart a microphone on a wire around at the same time, but wireless body mikes and hidden mikes made possible by new technology are leading to amplification in opera).
Don't worry about the technical matters if they don't interest you, but it is debatable whether when Hayley sang without the microphone that people heard her unpolluted voice anyway. Her voice is bouncng off walls floors and even other members of the audience. This is no small thing -- think of a kid shouting in a cave, his voice bounces off the stone walls, echos, and is even amplified...
As Jon put it, the certain way to her her voice unadulterated would be for her to be sitting in your lap as she sang. Modern amplification, may be as real as what you hear without it in a stone church.
It is quite possible that your stereo system isn't doing her new voice justice. It could be a matter of adjustment, or the system just not being good enough. There are others who may be able to help you with that. |
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Post by comet on Jun 11, 2014 16:06:10 GMT
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Post by comet on Feb 12, 2019 11:40:41 GMT
This video may be of interest to some of our members.
There was a real scientific reason why 12 inch vinyl singles sounded great. But we did'nt have cds back in the late 70s and early 80s.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Dec 6, 2021 23:17:16 GMT
What’s JBL? I thought maybe the J was a U. JBL or J. B. Lansing are speaker manufacturers, famous for cinema sound systems and rock festival public address systems. A long time ago, I went to a local hotel demo of the biggest JBL home speakers of those days, they blew my mind and I've been hooked on big speakers ever since (none of them ever JBLs though!). One of the tracks they played LOUD was Rock On by David Essex, impressive was that. Mind you, a different Rock On by Milli on the Beat goes even lower! In fact, I'm going to play them both right now, on my B&W floorstanders (Bowers and Wilkins, Paige ), oh the memories! |
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Post by Andrew on Dec 7, 2021 0:27:13 GMT
A long time ago, I went to a local hotel demo of the biggest JBL home speakers of those days, they blew my mind and I've been hooked on big speakers ever since (none of them ever JBLs though!). One of the tracks they played LOUD was Rock On by David Essex, impressive was that. Mind you, a different Rock On by Milli on the Beat goes even lower! In fact, I'm going to play them both right now, on my B&W floorstanders (Bowers and Wilkins, Paige ), oh the memories! Hi Dave, You are talking to another fellow “Hi-Fi Head/ Muso”… here! Did you ever have a B&W Zeppelin? They were superb wall elliptical speakers with a low bass frequency response and high sensitivity. In 1992 I built my own 2 way speaker cabinets from 18mm chipboard in the style of 2 x single rear loaded horn scoop bins l (with the curved scoops formed from layered plywood) like reggae bass guitarists use on stage but scaled down to a smaller size. These were fantastic cabinets! I used a design like this one: I bought the drivers from Maplin Electronics and wired each Eminence “Big Cat” 100 watt woofer and bullet tweeter to an electronic crossover so there was a good overlap in the midrange and high frequencies, in order to give a good strong signal for playing both CDs and vinyl. I was delighted with the results - I got a good 75 Watt RMS through my 100 Watt Denon PMA350 Amp which I still use to this very day! In fact I still use my Denon CD player; Technics turntable and Cambridge Audio DAB tuner too! I always liked Tannoy floor standing speakers in the ‘90’s too… but invested in some decent Bose direct reflecting 301 Series III monitor speakers, which I also wired up to my amp too. The sound these produce is incredible! It is very satisfying to build your own speaker cabinets, but I always follow specific designs which have been tuned to provide the best sound with the correct porthole sizes and port tubes. I used the “Eminence High Power Loudspeaker Enclosure Design and Construction” book to source my designs. Andrew |
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