the importance of willpower?

[stevemacdonald]

Hayley is rightfully praised by her observers for the strong work ethic and mental focus that go along with her amazing talent. Just how much does her attitude contribute to her success?

Before you answer that, I direct your attention to the following article about self control, and my posted comment #7: NY Times.

Do you sense that willpower was a substantial factor in her achievement or do you feel it's overrated? If you, yourself, had more willpower, would it make your life any better?

[milewalker]

Hi Steve,

Most people have a sort of macro will power - after all, despite temptation, I havent killed anyone in years! I dont think that is overrated. Will power at that level in an intrisic need for humans to live together in relative peace.

However, when we discuss this, more often than not we are talking about micro will power - the ability in specific instances to forego short term gratification in order to achieve a longer term goal. This has social uses as well - for example such things as faithfulness in marraige are predicated on it - but is more problematic in other more minor cases.

I dont think the direct answer to your question really exists, because it depends on the person, the individual situation, how much short term pleasure is being avoided, how rewarding the longer term goal is and what the cost-benefit ratio between the two really is.

On balance I suppose that self control at that lower level is better than not having it, but I would bet that this isnt universally true. My dad probably extended his life by 5 years or so because he gave up smoking his pipe - but I dont know how much enjoyment he really got out of those 5 years - and I do know he enjoyed the pipe.....

Jon

[gra7890]

Hi everyone,
my take on this ( for what it is worth) is that many people have the necessary raw ability/talent to succeed.
What determines how far they go is down to their internal desire, willpower, determination, call it what you will, or a mixture of all.
Look at the field of sport for many examples; Tiger Woods is probably the best example, his work ethics and sheer determination are second to none, and look where he is!
And then there is Hayley !!!!
Hope the above makes sense, Graham

[martindn]

Yes, I am absolutely sure that despite her huge natural talent, Hayley's high standards don't come without a good deal of hard work. She has basically dedicated her whole life to making the most of her talent, and we all benefit and should thank her for that. She has had to make sacrifices to achieve that, for example a "normal" teenage life, and I'm sure she wouldn't have achieved what she had without strong determination to achieve it and a lot of self-control and self-denial. I'm sure too that the support of her family has been crucial, and we should thank them too for that.
After all, Thomas Edison said that "Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration."
I often feel it unjust that other singers with far less ability and application than Hayley get a lot more publicity and sell a lot more records than she does. Especially the ones who exhibit outrageous and self-destructive behavior, like a certain Ms Winehouse (although she does have considerable natural talent IMO). I suppose that hard work and self-denial do not sell newspapers,

[gra7890]

Hi Martindn,
I take your point about other singers, but how many of these will still be successful in say 20 years time ?
If I was a betting man I would like to have money on Hayley and not any of the others you mention.
Sure Tiger Woods has to create success for himself and does not therefore depend on anybody else. A singers success appears to be judged not by how good they are, but by how much they sell, and the British public tend to be very 'fickle' ; hence your so called 'current popular singers.'
Don't worry or get annoyed , Hayley has the talent and the other attributes to be a great success well into the future.
Graham

[martindn]

Hi Graham,
Whether or not Hayley is successful in 20 years time I think depends almost entirely on whether she wants to be. I agree she has the talent. My fear is that she will become discouraged, or be dropped by the money men because she is not profitable enough, or they don't think she is sexy enough, or perhaps just lose interest once she has a family of her own. We all know Hayley doesn't do sexy, and speaking for myself, I wouldn't want her to. I think there is an attempt to sing a "sexy" song on Prayer, and it is just about the only song on that album that I don't think is brilliant. Someone like Shania Twain would have done it better. You probably know which one if you have the album. Hayley's music is spiritual, not "sexy" and long may it remain so.

Martin

[gra7890]

Hi,
She has too much talent to be dropped by the 'money men'
as you say, also my impression is that she has 'good people' close to her. This image you suggest she needs to adopt is just not her. There are enough 'sensible' people out there ( yes maybe a minority I agree ) who like her for what she is.
Sure if (when) in due course a happy marriage and children come, it will change her lifestyle, but somehow I think she will still be singing for years to come albeit maybe on a reduced scale.
Graham

[milewalker]

I have one problem with this type of argument.

In the case of sports, talent is actually quantified. Mr Woods can demonstrate his talent by simply outperforming his peers on the golf course, and a 68 is better than a 70.

When you try to do the same thing with a singer or another entertainer however, you hit a big quagmire simply because talent in this case is not as easily quantifiable. My wife likes Carrie Underwood and Kelly Clarkson much more than she does Hayley - which presumably means that her perception of their respective talents is different than mine. I cant say she is wrong just because my taste differs, What would I base that on?

For this reason, statements like "She has too much talent to be dropped by the 'money men'" give me hives, because the writer is assuming that Hayley's talent is an objective thing which therefore must also be shared by the "money man" in question.

In entertainment, things like CD sales, the size of venues filled during a concert, and cash flow coming from an artist are objective - and the commercial assessment of talent therefore tends to be derived from that. I can take or leave Madonna personally, but I cannot ignore that fact that she can still put a lot of people in the seats even after being around nearly 25 years. That has to mean that a whole lot of people really do perceive her to have talent even if it is largely lost on me.

The question of how much marketing Hayley has received compared with more successful artists is related. She doesnt get as much promotion as other artists simply because everybody knows beforehand that her sales ceiling is limited. Using an analogy, at some point McDonalds felt obliged to offer a set of healthier choice items on their menu, and for a while they publicised this. They do sell a few of these, and probably are making a little money on it, but the reality is that most people who are eating at McDonalds are really not that interested in making a healthy food choice. They still have them available, but I havent seen an ad for them in a couple of years. In any market, be it salads or music, things like this tend to seek and then find their own level.

I am not sure how on topic this off growth is - then again I wasnt sure what Steve was looking for to begin with!

Putting all of this together,. right now I perceive Hayley's self control to be a two edged sword at best.. Her self control has put her into a sort of box in my opinion which is going to be dfifficultr for her to escape from. At the same time there is no question that the quality of her present product is first rate - for the someone limited number of people who like it.

Jon

[petertong]

I think it comes down to Vision and training... not huge willpower.

Without a Vision you can't discern/direct the will towards the long term goal when making decisions. Without direction you can't train properly. Without training you can't gradually increase your capacity for making the right decisions over the long haul with the goal of developing your raw talent and achieving the Vision.

I find this with my running at least... by the end of the summer the results are determined almost completely by how well I've trained. I can gut/sprint out the last 300-400 meters on pure willpower but it really doesn't affect the overall time much... and if I haven't trained and prepared then no amount of willpower is going to allow me to run the same time...

Hayley must have a very well defined vision. She seems to me to have trained herself well... at least when it comes to doing what it takes for her voice.

Just my $.02 on the matter....

Peter T.

gra7890 said:

Hi everyone,
my take on this ( for what it is worth) is that many people have the necessary raw ability/talent to succeed.
What determines how far they go is down to their internal desire, willpower, determination, call it what you will, or a mixture of all.
Look at the field of sport for many examples; Tiger Woods is probably the best example, his work ethics and sheer determination are second to none, and look where he is!
And then there is Hayley !!!!
Hope the above makes sense, Graham

[comet]

martindn said:

Hi Graham,
Whether or not Hayley is successful in 20 years time I think depends almost entirely on whether she wants to be. I agree she has the talent. My fear is that she will become discouraged, or be dropped by the money men because she is not profitable enough, or they don't think she is sexy enough, or perhaps just lose interest once she has a family of her own. We all know Hayley doesn't do sexy, and speaking for myself, I wouldn't want her to. I think there is an attempt to sing a "sexy" song on Prayer, and it is just about the only song on that album that I don't think is brilliant. Someone like Shania Twain would have done it better. You probably know which one if you have the album. Hayley's music is spiritual, not "sexy" and long may it remain so.

Martin

I am going to leave the whole post in the quote,

Hayley does not need to "do " sexy because in the most natural and beautiful way Hayley simply IS ....

and by NOT trying to do sexy in fact makes her more attractive....

If some other artists are trying to do sexy, It simply comes across as crude and vulgar which it probably is, or just a cheap marketing ploy.

[postscript]

I am only going to comment peripherally on this post 9 by saying.

I think Hayley is capable of doing a far wider range than we have so far gleaned.

In one sense she tries things for her own benefit to see if it will work and on another plane she currently chooses not to. I think this is a lady who has much still untapped talent. That talent is partly untapped because she wants to move forward surely and confidentally and also because there are certain things that require an older person to perform. She will bide her time.

She is learning about herself. Aware how her body and she will inevitably change over time and does look far enough ahead to think 'I'll leave that for the moment'.

Should the money men leave her I suspect she will have acquired sufficient resource to fund herself. With funding it only requires basic supporting administration. She's quite capable of buying that in when she wants it.

Peter S.