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Post by Dave on May 12, 2007 16:14:44 GMT
Hello everyone, Several of us are interested in how well Treasure is doing compared to Odyssey and the subject keeps popping up in various threads; no doubt it will do so in the future from time to time. So I thought it would be useful to gather the "comparison" chat into one place... here! Jeff started the ball rolling today in the Classic FM Magazine thread so I'll repost that here now, together with the subsequent replies. Give me a few minutes to organize it please! Cheers, Dave
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Post by Dave on May 12, 2007 16:29:07 GMT
Reposted from the ClassicFM Magazine threadThanks for the clarification, Dave. Let's hope her article in Classic FM mag does the trick and boosts sales since I've just listened to the chart show and "Treasure" does seem to be falling down the Top 10 now. You'd know more about this than me but it looks as if her 3rd CD may spend less time in the Top 10 than her first 2 albums .
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Post by Dave on May 12, 2007 16:30:53 GMT
Hi Jeff,
I don't have all the Classic FM charts but Odyssey special edition stayed at no. 1 in the Classical Artist chart for 10 weeks last year. Treasure was no. 1 for 3 weeks.. but that isn't the whole story because last summer, there was no serious competition for Hayley (such as Fron MVC this year).
A better guide is "weeks in the top 200 pop album chart"; Odyssey SE had 11 and Treasure had 9 so yes, it's a bit worse but that is to be expected when Hayley's done very little UK promo and she has been mostly out of the Country ever since the release week.
We won't know how well UK Treasure has really done until the end of the year, by which time Hayley will have been back in the UK a few times and no doubt there will have been a Special Edition released (which could out-sell the original I think). It's probably down on total sales so far too, by somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000, partly due to the slightly weaker chart perfornance and partly because CD sales generally in the UK are well down on last year.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Dave on May 12, 2007 16:33:30 GMT
Reposted from the Classic FM Magazine thread: I've just listened to the chart show and "Treasure" does seem to be falling down the Top 10 now. Hi Jeff,
Although Dave is far better placed to comment as to the possible reasons for Treasure's decline, I will throw in my two pennyworth nonetheless.
During this morning's Classic FM countdown, I noticed several albums had risen quite dramatically. What most of them had in common is that they were nominated for the Album of the Year award at the Classical Brits. Because of the press coverage, those albums would have sold quite well this week (and that trend is likely to continue following tomorrow tonight's broadcast of the CBAs). In that case, the previous top albums would have been forced down the charts (if, like Treasure, they were not nominated for a Classical Brit).
Dave, is there any substance in that theory?
Roger
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Post by Dave on May 12, 2007 16:37:38 GMT
Hi Roger, Yes of course, for this week and probably for a few weeks afterwards. Of the top 7: This Week (Last Week) Album - Artist 1 (NEW) The Number 1 Opera Album - Various Artists 2 (1) Cortes - Gardar Thor Cortes 3 (2) Nessun Dorma - Luciana Pavarotti 4 (4) Serenade - Katherine Jenkins 5 (3) Voices Of The Valley - Fron Male Voice Choir 6 (25) Premiere - Katherine Jenkins 7 (5) Treasure Hayley Westenra 1. Each year's Opera Album is always a no. 1 and is a new release 2. Cortes is the "latest big thing" and is also a very recent release 3. Pavarotti is a budget album and also is new to the charts 4. Serenade is a permanent big seller, the supermarkets have it in stock most of the time (unlike Hayley's albums) and a couple of weeks ago, shoved it into their top 100s for no apparent reason (Classical brits I assume). 5. Fron Choir are a phenomenon, even Katherine has trouble with them. Also Classical Brits. 6. Premiere has probably shot up because Katherine was at the Classical Brits and some stores have re-stocked probably at reduced price (it was an official budget album not long ago). There are good reasons why they are all up there... but it doesn't alter the fact that Hayley is now out of the supermarkets (all of them I think) therefore out of the pop chart and has dropped down the classical chart. But of course, things could easily change in the summer... I wonder what plans Decca have for maximising on Hayley's UK Summer stint and Jekyll? Some good plans, I hope! Cheers, Dave
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Post by James on Jan 1, 2008 16:51:55 GMT
01 Pure - Hayley Westenra ( 780,000 )18 Odyssey - Hayley Westenra ( 210,000 )45 Treasure - Hayley Westenra ( 71,000 ) Hi everyone, Further to the Classic FM top 300 chart (where Hayley's Pure came top ) Classic FM Top 300 of 21st Century I find it interesting how sales of Hayley's subsequent albums have fared less well. After the euphoria of last night, in no way do I mean to put a damper on things, but it does concern me looking at Dave's sales estimates of the three albums. I know Pure was an amazing success and achieved far beyond record company hopes, but even allowing for that once in a lifetime success where several factors combined, the drop in sales of the subsequent albums is significant. Excluding the few (mainly members of this forum) who have multiple copies of the albums in various versions, those sales figures imply that less than 1 in 10 of those who bought Pure subsequently bought Treasure (assuming all owners of Treasure own Pure) and only 1 in 3 owners of Odyssey subsequently bought Treasure. Does this mean that a lot of copies of Pure were bought due to the publicity/profile at the time or as an impulse buy and therefore are sitting unplayed on people's shelves or hidden in their cupboards? I wonder how many of those 780,000 copies are still regularly played? Even allowing for a Special Edition of Treasure, which should add a few thousand sales, this seems to represent a dramatic fall in sales. I have heard it said that maybe the delay before Odyssey was too big and the momentum that had been built up had been lost? It's also intriguing that of the large number of concerts Hayley performed this year, tens of thousands of people must have seen her live (excluding the rare people who went to multiple shows ) and presumably many do not own copies of Treasure. It is usually more expensive to see an artist live than to buy a CD. It also appears that other singers, Katherine Jenkins in particular, have a far higher profile, particularly around people of my age. I don't mean to be negative, but it does make one wonder why all those people who bought Pure didn't then but Odyssey and why even less still bought Treasure? I agree with Roger and Dave that the publicity of the "Biggest Selling Classical Album Of The Century" should be capitalised on. After all, we all want the success for Hayley that we know she deserves (and merits). However, despite my comments about the decline in sales, the chart does show that Hayley is most definitely one of the biggest stars of the classical genre in terms of record sales, so again my congratulations on that success. James
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Post by grant on Jan 1, 2008 18:18:16 GMT
it does make one wonder why all those people who bought Pure didn't then but Odyssey and why even less still bought Treasure? Hi James You make a very interesting observation! Taking your comment above, I think one of the reasons may be that sales are actually going the other way. People who discover Hayley now will, invariably, look for other material and purchase "Odyssey" and/or "Pure" and, maybe the earlier CD's. We know that happens because it is quoted on this forum regularly. "Pure" was an exceptional album and, I am sure, people who became fans will have bought the later albums but, it seems, there were a huge number of people bought "Pure" for whatever reason and haven't followed through. There could be many reasons and I'm no expert so I'm not going to try to be clever. There is, however, another factor which may have a bearing and that is, I believe, classical albums have a much longer shelf life than a pop album. "Pure" is still available and selling well 4 years from the original release date. Hopefully, then, "Odyssey" and "Treasure" will continue to sell for the forseeable future. Maybe Dave could hazard a guess at sales figures for "Pure" when it had only been on sale for as long as "Treasure" and as long as "Odyssey", maybe then the difference would not be so huge. Best wishes Grant
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Post by martindn on Jan 1, 2008 20:24:53 GMT
I wonder how much of Pure's success is down to the "child prodigy" effect. It is pretty amazing that the century's best selling classical album was made by a fifteen year old. Perhaps the idea of a young girl with an amazing voice appeals to a lot of people. After all, I suspect that the career of Charlotte Church has a similar profile. Another problem is that Hayley's records don't get played that much by the media. Classic FM only seems interested in Hayley's "Classical" songs. And even they don't play a lot of vocal music, even though such music dominates their classical charts. In the UK nobody plays her pop or folk stuff much, as she is seen as a "classical" artist. So she falls between the cracks in people's ideas of the genres of music they like. Cetlic Woman did the same thing in the UK I think, I have seen "A New Journey" for sale but with no publicity, how many copies do you think were sold here? Not even the one I own, as I bought it on import from the US. This was a beautiful record that most people in the UK completely missed. The thing that was different about Pure was the beautiful Maori songs. Most people who buy classical records already have recordings of the classic operatic arias anyway, and beautiful as Hayley's versions are, need a good reason to buy another. I suspect that carrying on as she is, Hayley's career profile could be rather like that of another child prodigy - Aled Jones. She will continue to sell everything she records to her dedicated fans, but will not win large numbers of new ones. The artists who sustain great success over a number of years usually need to re-invent themselves periodically. To Hayley's credit, she has done so last year with her forays into Celtic music and musical theatre. Again, with these, at least in the UK, it is publicity that is the problem. How many people who bought Pure do you think actually even know of the existence of Celtic Woman or Hayley's West Side Story? Which radio/TV stations ever played those records? Charlotte tried to move into pop music, although nowadays she seems more to be famous for being famous, after media reports of drunken nights out. I can't see Hayley doing that, she is far too sensible. Her fortune is her voice, and she should stick to music that shows off its beauty in my opinion. I think re-invention is a particularly difficult thing for singer of "traditional" music, whether classical or otherwise. Katherine has an enduring popularity it is true, but seems mostly to be limited to the UK, where she gets a lot of publicity, and has been able to keep herself more or less continually in the public eye to a greater extent than Hayley.. Hayley, with her international fan base, has to spread herself more thinly. But even Katherine is trying new things now.
This is a long and rambling post I know, and I apologise if some parts are a bit off topic. Basically I'm simply trying to throw some ideas into the pot for you all to think about.
Martin
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Post by Paddy on Jan 1, 2008 20:40:19 GMT
I find it interesting how sales of Hayley's subsequent albums have fared less well. I don't mean to be negative, but it does make one wonder why all those people who bought Pure didn't then buy Odyssey and why even less still bought Treasure? "Pure" was an exceptional album and, I am sure, people who became fans will have bought the later albums but, it seems, there were a huge number of people bought "Pure" for whatever reason and haven't followed through. There is, however, another factor which may have a bearing and that is, I believe, classical albums have a much longer shelf life than a pop album. "Pure" is still available and selling well 4 years from the original release date. Hopefully, then, "Odyssey" and "Treasure" will continue to sell for the forseeable future.... maybe then the difference would not be so huge. Hi James and Grant! No great wisdom here either, Grant. - but I wonder to what extent are ipods to blame for falling CD sales? 'Cool' people nowadays seem to prefer to download tracks rather than buy CDs. From your interesting analysis, It seems to me that Hayley's forthcoming album will be crucial in ensuring her ongoing success. Hopefully, its release will be soon enough to capitalise fully on her 'Top 300 of the 21st Century' success. I think myself that the maturing Hayley voice I've heard in concerts (only two, regrettably) is even more impressive than the Hayley I heard hear on 'Pure'. So, I believe that, if she is allowed, as she attempted to do with 'Pure', to put her own enhanced but distinctive 'stamp' ( not 're-invention') on the material in her forthcoming album, ( with similar promotion), the album can make a similar impact to 'Pure' Here's hoping ... Paddy
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Post by martindn on Jan 1, 2008 21:34:03 GMT
Paddy,
I agree, Hayley's maturing voice is exciting. I think she is much better, both in vocal tone and technique than she was when she recorded Pure. Also, the sound quality of her more recent recordings seems better.
Another thought to add to my previous post. Elsewhere, we hear that Hayley is learning the guitar because it is a good instrument for songwriting. The one thing that Hayley can do to inject freshness into her recordings and revitalise her career without moving into "pop" is to become more of a singer-songwriter. Singer-songwriters are very popular, even ones who can't sing very well. A combination of some well written new songs that catch the public's imagination and the beauty of Hayley's voice could prove irresistible! And Hayley can write songs that suit her voice and can use them to express her own feelings rather than ths of others. We know she can write songs, and developing her songwriting would give her more possibilities to express herself. The more I think about it, the more I think that that is exactly the right way for Hayley to go.
Martin
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Post by Paddy on Jan 1, 2008 21:38:35 GMT
Another problem is that Hayley's records don't get played that much by the media. ... In the UK nobody plays her pop or folk stuff much ... how many copies do you think were sold here? Not even the one I own, as I bought it on import from the US. ... This was a beautiful record that most people in the UK completely missed. ... it is publicity that is the problem. Regrettably, it's no better in Ireland. Apart from the short-term publicity just before the two Dublin concerts, I have hardly ever heard Hayley played on the Irish airwaves. Apart from the NCH shop at concerts - only twice have I seen a Hayley CD for sale in any record store here! All my own Hayley CDs (and her book) were bought from outside Ireland. The artists who sustain great success over a number of years usually need to re-invent themselves periodically. ... To Hayley's credit, she has done so last year with her forays into Celtic music and musical theatre. ... Again, with these, at least in the UK, it is publicity that is the problem. ... I think re-invention is a particularly difficult thing for singer of "traditional" music, whether classical or otherwise. ... Hayley, with her international fan base, has to spread herself more thinly. But even Katherine is trying new things now. I really hope that Hayley doesn't need to consider 're-invention'. I think Hayley has been trying quite a range of 'new things' in some of her concerts. So, perhaps there is this new recently-evolving Hayley just waiting to be more widely 'discovered' through her forthcoming album? But this is unlikely to happen by accident! Paddy
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Post by Paddy on Jan 1, 2008 22:03:09 GMT
Paddy, I agree, Hayley's maturing voice is exciting. I think she is much better, both in vocal tone and technique than she was when she recorded Pure. Also, the sound quality of her more recent recordings seems better. Another thought to add to my previous post. Elsewhere, we hear that Hayley is learning the guitar because it is a good instrument for songwriting. The one thing that Hayley can do to inject freshness into her recordings and revitalise her career without moving into "pop" is to become more of a singer-songwriter. Singer-songwriters are very popular, even ones who can't sing very well. A combination of some well written new songs that catch the public's imagination and the beauty of Hayley's voice could prove irresistible! And Hayley can write songs that suit her voice and can use them to express her own feelings rather than ths of others. We know she can write songs, and developing her songwriting would give her more possibilities to express herself. The more I think about it, the more I think that that is exactly the right way for Hayley to go. Martin Sorry, Martin. I didn't see this post. I was writing as you were posting. I agree with you entirely! One of my first impressions of 'Pure' (my first Hayley CD) was how meaningful her singing was and how well 'song suited singer'. I believe Hayley has exciting potential to surprise us all with her forthcoming album. She has suggested in her book that she wants to write more of her own songs and try new things. I suspect that the forthcoming album will strongly reflect this and more - no 're-invention', just Hayley becoming and expressing her fuller self. I don't think she need worry too much about labels either. Anyway, is it the song or the singing that makes a performance classical? But success - No Accident! Paddy (a non-expert!)
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Post by milewalker on Jan 1, 2008 23:04:23 GMT
I wonder how much of Pure's success is down to the "child prodigy" effect. It is pretty amazing that the century's best selling classical album was made by a fifteen year old. Perhaps the idea of a young girl with an amazing voice appeals to a lot of people. After all, I suspect that the career of Charlotte Church has a similar profile. Another problem is that Hayley's records don't get played that much by the media. Classic FM only seems interested in Hayley's "Classical" songs. And even they don't play a lot of vocal music, even though such music dominates their classical charts. In the UK nobody plays her pop or folk stuff much, as she is seen as a "classical" artist. So she falls between the cracks in people's ideas of the genres of music they like. Cetlic Woman did the same thing in the UK I think, I have seen "A New Journey" for sale but with no publicity, how many copies do you think were sold here? Not even the one I own, as I bought it on import from the US. This was a beautiful record that most people in the UK completely missed. The thing that was different about Pure was the beautiful Maori songs. Most people who buy classical records already have recordings of the classic operatic arias anyway, and beautiful as Hayley's versions are, need a good reason to buy another. I suspect that carrying on as she is, Hayley's career profile could be rather like that of another child prodigy - Aled Jones. She will continue to sell everything she records to her dedicated fans, but will not win large numbers of new ones. The artists who sustain great success over a number of years usually need to re-invent themselves periodically. To Hayley's credit, she has done so last year with her forays into Celtic music and musical theatre. Again, with these, at least in the UK, it is publicity that is the problem. How many people who bought Pure do you think actually even know of the existence of Celtic Woman or Hayley's West Side Story? Which radio/TV stations ever played those records? Charlotte tried to move into pop music, although nowadays she seems more to be famous for being famous, after media reports of drunken nights out. I can't see Hayley doing that, she is far too sensible. Her fortune is her voice, and she should stick to music that shows off its beauty in my opinion. I think re-invention is a particularly difficult thing for singer of "traditional" music, whether classical or otherwise. Katherine has an enduring popularity it is true, but seems mostly to be limited to the UK, where she gets a lot of publicity, and has been able to keep herself more or less continually in the public eye to a greater extent than Hayley.. Hayley, with her international fan base, has to spread herself more thinly. But even Katherine is trying new things now. This is a long and rambling post I know, and I apologise if some parts are a bit off topic. Basically I'm simply trying to throw some ideas into the pot for you all to think about. Martin Hi Martindn and all Just a couple of brief comments as much of this has been discussed in various other threads. IThis thread for some reason seems to present a much greater temptation to go off-topic...) Pure did better than her subsequent releases in my opinon for several different reasons, but the single biggest was obviously the degree to which it was promoted - or overpromoted. It is unlikely that we are going to see a similar amount of future promotion. You are quite correct that it is no coincedence that a 15 year old girl has the number one selling release - but I think this had less effect than some other factors. One thing which I think gets overlooked is that Pure achieved something close to total market saturation. That isnt exactly a bad thing, but it does create some mixed results. Most people on this forum have at least one copy of every major release - and in some cases a much more detailed collection. This is not the case with the general music public - who are not mega fans. It is much more likely for people who "kinda like" Hayley to only have one album of hers in their collection. In this case, I think that that one album is Pure. For this reason, I think the sales of Pure actually have hurt -and will quite likely continue to hurt - the sales of her future work. One other direct effect of market saturation is exactly the point made by James above. A very large number of Pure were gifts to someone else. Perhaps they were played once - perhaps they are still sitting unopened on someone's shelf. In this case, one is tempted to call it market over-saturation. I have already gone on longer than I meant too Jon
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Post by Paddy on Jan 1, 2008 23:33:00 GMT
Pure did better than her subsequent releases in my opinon for several different reasons, but the single biggest was obviously the degree to which it was promoted - or overpromoted. It is unlikely that we are going to see a similar amount of future promotion. One thing which I think gets overlooked is that Pure achieved something close to total market saturation. That isnt exactly a bad thing, but it does create some mixed results. For this reason, I think the sales of Pure actually have hurt -and will quite likely continue to hurt - the sales of her future work. Hi Jon! What you say makes perfect sense to me. But I hope (choose to believe) that the curse of Pure's success can be lifted, through Hayley's evolving performing (and song-writing) talents and her broadening range of material. Wishful thinking? Not with the 'magic wands' of extensive promotion and publicity ... Paddy
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Post by James on Jan 1, 2008 23:53:40 GMT
I wonder to what extent are ipods to blame for falling CD sales? 'Cool' people nowadays seem to prefer to download tracks rather than buy CDs. Well I'm definitely not cool Paddy. I prefer the old fashioned method of getting a CD, with cover art/photos. How can you ask someone to sign a download?! I actually purchased my first ever download album recently, and that was the original Odyssey which is not available on CD any more because I wanted to add some more tracks to the list after Roger posted his A-Z guide. It's great to have a copy of Dido's Lament (haunting) and Never Saw Blue at last. I wonder if the modern trend to download individual songs rather than albums has had an impact? I would perceive Hayley, and indeed the whole crossover genre, as more album orientated than singles. If someone downloaded one track from Treasure, I presume it would count towards the singles chart rather than album, and the quantities sold would not be enough of singles to impact the top 40 singles? Maybe when Pure was released, downloads were not so prevalent and to get a particular song, people had to buy the whole album? James
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