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Post by stevemacdonald on Nov 4, 2008 14:17:10 GMT
Okay, I think we can all agree that Hayley should not be labeled an opera singer.
Now I have an even bigger concern: Let's not call her a "crossover" singer either! She's simply a singer, a wonderful, wonderful singer with a variety of styles at her disposal. She can sing a Puccini aria one moment, a Kate Bush alt-rock number the next, a country-sounding tune after that, and so on. Her proficiency in multiple genres speaks (or sings) for itself!
I long for the day when Ms. Westenra is simply known as "Hayley" -- the way Mr. Sinatra was unmistakably known as "Frank". The time for that is obviously way down the road, but it would arrive much sooner if silly terms like "crossover" and "popera" were chucked as we hail the return of the true singer to our musical terminology.
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Martin
Global Moderator
HWI Management Team
Posts: 3,339
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Post by Martin on Nov 4, 2008 15:39:23 GMT
I know this has been commented on before but it really does irritate me when Hayley also gets the tag "classical superstar" (not that I disagree with the superstar bit). It paints the inevitable inaccurate description of Hayley since we all know that her repertoire and ability are significantly broader than that. Furthermore, it may well put off newcomers who dislike classical music from going to Hayley's concerts. I feel much better now that I have got this off my chest.  Martin |
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Post by stuartj on Nov 4, 2008 20:35:41 GMT
Okay, I think we can all agree that Hayley should not be labeled an opera singer. Now I have an even bigger concern: Let's not call her a "crossover" singer either! She's simply a singer, a wonderful, wonderful singer with a variety of styles at her disposal. She can sing a Puccini aria one moment, a Kate Bush alt-rock number the next, a country-sounding tune after that, and so on. Her proficiency in multiple genres speaks (or sings) for itself! I long for the day when Ms. Westenra is simply known as "Hayley" -- the way Mr. Sinatra was unmistakably known as "Frank". The time for that is obviously way down the road, but it would arrive much sooner if silly terms like "crossover" and "popera" were chucked as we hail the return of the true singer to our musical terminology. Hmmmm.... Well, yes, I don't essentially disagree, but isn't "crossover" -- indicating that a singer is not confined to the one genre -- as close as we can get? This term has been around for a long time and used sensibly seems ok to me. "Popera" is usually used pejoratively, but even that is not an inaccurate description of bands like Il Divo who affect an operatic style but popularise opera material. The problem is that the terminology is in a mess and some are suggesting that the deep divison between "classical" and "Pop" is crumbling. People like Hayley are on the cusp of the crumble or the confusion, it you like, and this makes them controversial. People have also talked of the fortress mentality of the more extreme classical purists and opera fans, who erronously think that their beloved music is under some sort of threat. Critic Norman Lebrecht has stirred up a lot of fear by claiming that the "crossover" singers like Hayley destroy the chances of core classical artists getting recorded. Nonsense, but people swallow it. |
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Post by martindn on Nov 4, 2008 22:55:47 GMT
I'm going to say something controversial here, although I have said something similar before.
There are two reasons why people listen to music.
The first, and the purists would say the only important one, is for the music. The music comes first, and who is performing it is very much less important, provided that the performance is competent. This is the norm in classical music. The composition and the composer, are more important than the performer. You might be a fan of Mozart or Sibelius, and might be drawn to a performance because of that. You are unlikely to go just because it is the Philharmonia Orchestra rather than some other, irrespective of the music to be performed. This is largely truwe of Musical Theatre too, and is certainly true of opera.
Popular music, and jazz for that matter, is usually the opposite. You might go to see Amy Winehouse, or the Rolling Stones or Elton John. You would not go to hear a performance of Jonny B Goode, irrespective of who performed it. Purists tend to dislike that sort of culture of celebrity.
In my book Hayley is firmly in the second category. We go to her concerts to hear Hayley perform, not to hear somebody sing Danny Boy. I think this is what upsets classical purists.
In that sense then, Hayley is closer to pop culture than classical or opera, although some of the pieces she performs are taken from those traditions. We love Hayley for her pure and beautiful voice much more than for her choice of music. I think someone, probably Grant but I could be wrong, once said he would go to listen to Hayley even if she was singing the telephone directory.
I think that it is because we go to her concerts primarily to hear Hayley sing, that we don't particularly care what she sings. Often, we will go to see Hayley without having been told what music she will perform, something that is unthinkable in classical music or opera. The music itself is secondary, so long as it shows off the beauty of her voice. That means she can sing just about anything, from any genre, and her fans will still enjoy it.
So classical music, opera, musical theatre, and even some rock music (eq Pink Floyd) is all about the music,and the performers become almost anonymous. Crossover, perhaps is the absolute opposite - the performance stands or falls by the quality of the performer, perhaps more than in any other genre.
I have often thought that when I see Hayley walk onto a stage at the start of a concert, and start to sing a capella as she often does, sometimes without even a reference note, that she could not be more exposed if she walked onto the stage naked (not that I would recommend that). It is absolutely all dependent on her performance, and the slightest error would glare like the sun. There is simply nowhere to hide. It must take considerable courage and confidence in ones ability to do that. Yet Hayley pulls it off, time after time.
In that respect, crossover might require a higher quality of performance and performer than say opera.
Martin
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Post by stuartj on Nov 5, 2008 4:07:45 GMT
...the purists would say the only important one, is for the music. The music comes first, and who is performing it is very much less important, provided that the performance is competent. This is the norm in classical music. The composition and the composer, are more important than the performer. You might be a fan of Mozart or Sibelius, and might be drawn to a performance because of that. You are unlikely to go just because it is the Philharmonia Orchestra rather than some other, irrespective of the music to be performed. This is largely truwe of Musical Theatre too, and is certainly true of opera.... Martin Couldn't disagree more totally, absolutely, and profoudly, Martin. The conductor and the orchestra certainly do matter to the purists, and in opera the fact that it is Dame Kiri, or Pavarotti or some renowned singer as opposed to a nonentity, makes worlds of difference. No cult of celebrity in opera? Callas, Te Kanawa, etc, etc, are worshiped. And the arguments about the merits of controversial performers -- Callas, Netrobko, say, are every bit as strong as the arguments between fans of rival pop singers. |
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Post by comet on Nov 5, 2008 10:33:53 GMT
We love Hayley for her pure and beautiful voice much more than for her choice of music. I think someone, probably Grant but I could be wrong, once said he would go to listen to Hayley even if she was singing the telephone directory. I think that it is because we go to her concerts primarily to hear Hayley sing, that we don't particularly care what she sings. Often, we will go to see Hayley without having been told what music she will perform, something that is unthinkable in classical music or opera. The music itself is secondary, so long as it shows off the beauty of her voice. That means she can sing just about anything, from any genre, and her fans will still enjoy it. ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' I have often thought that when I see Hayley walk onto a stage at the start of a concert, and start to sing a capella as she often does, sometimes without even a reference note, that she could not be more exposed if she walked onto the stage naked (not that I would recommend that). It is absolutely all dependent on her performance, and the slightest error would glare like the sun. There is simply nowhere to hide. It must take considerable courage and confidence in ones ability to do that. Yet Hayley pulls it off, time after time. In that respect, crossover might require a higher quality of performance and performer than say opera. Martin I have never been concerned before a Hayley concert about what she is going to sing, Only that I will hear her sing. Nor have I ever been disappointed, Each time I hear Hayley sing live it is as if it is a new interpretation of the song, never the same as the last time, some details different, a slightly different emphasis, always enchanting, always new. I enjoyed the concerts as much without a full orchestra, like the ones with Fiona and Ian, there is less to be distracted by. The new (2008) recording of Now is the Hour is a perfect example of how little else is needed to accompany Hayley's voice. I listened again to the 2002 DVD recording with Russell Watson and Faye Tozer and felt it was over orchestrated, but that was the nature of that concert, The beauty of the song was removed by the attempted over sophistication , often the ruination of a good song. I'll quote Martin again : " We love Hayley for her pure and beautiful voice much more than for her choice of music." This may be because her music was so well chosen, I have been introduced to so much new (To me) material by Hayley's singing and selection of songs...Long may it continue....... I have often pondered the courage element of Hayley's performance, In just that moment when two thousand people fall silent, expectant, everything depending on that first note to emerge from Hayley's lips. That beautiful silence that signals you are in for a musical banquet............................... |
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Post by Libby on Nov 7, 2008 4:16:54 GMT
I like her newest "label" in a recent article: "Kiwi songbird" That's more like it! Although she does not otherwise resemble the avian species.  I bet they got the idea from her singing "Songbird". |
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Post by stuartj on Nov 7, 2008 22:33:24 GMT
BTW Martin, I don't mean what I said rudely. I respect your opinion, but am rather sceptical about parts of it. Not what you say about Hayley, but rather about the attitude of opera goers and purists. Maybe the truth is that there is individual variation within all genres. Some people are interested in the music, some in the performance. I listen to quite a bit of classical music and it is true that where I'm concerned it's the music rather than the performer that matters. But I think amongst the real cognoscenti the performer becomes more important. None of this goes against what you say about Hayley, and I just wanted to make that clear.  |
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Post by martindn on Nov 8, 2008 1:24:37 GMT
BTW Martin, I don't mean what I said rudely. I respect your opinion, but am rather sceptical about parts of it. Not what you say about Hayley, but rather about the attitude of opera goers and purists. Maybe the truth is that there is individual variation within all genres. Some people are interested in the music, some in the performance. I listen to quite a bit of classical music and it is true that where I'm concerned it's the music rather than the performer that matters. But I think amongst the real cognoscenti the performer becomes more important. None of this goes against what you say about Hayley, and I just wanted to make that clear. Hi Stuart, Well, what I said is certinly open to debate. What you need to look at is how performances and recordings are promoted. For example, West Side Story was West Side Story. OK, Hayley sang the female lead, but West Side Story was what appeared on the CD, so presumably was more important than who was performing. My contention is that most classical and opera performances promote the music rather than the artists. You look at the headline name on the posters. Yes, there are a few stars in opera, but most opera does not involve them and the music is the main draw. Yes, I go to performances by local orchestras and choirs to support their work, But otherwise, it is the music that attracts me to classical concerts. I'm sure there is a real distinction there. There are both outstanding compositions and outstanding performers. Music that is so wonderful that the performers disappear, and performers that are so wonderful that the music disappears. I think Hayley is the latter, Martin |
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Post by stuartj on Nov 8, 2008 9:59:25 GMT
BTW Martin, I don't mean what I said rudely. I respect your opinion, but am rather sceptical about parts of it. Not what you say about Hayley, but rather about the attitude of opera goers and purists. Maybe the truth is that there is individual variation within all genres. Some people are interested in the music, some in the performance. I listen to quite a bit of classical music and it is true that where I'm concerned it's the music rather than the performer that matters. But I think amongst the real cognoscenti the performer becomes more important. None of this goes against what you say about Hayley, and I just wanted to make that clear. Hi Stuart, Well, what I said is certinly open to debate. What you need to look at is how performances and recordings are promoted. For example, West Side Story was West Side Story. OK, Hayley sang the female lead, but West Side Story was what appeared on the CD, so presumably was more important than who was performing. My contention is that most classical and opera performances promote the music rather than the artists. You look at the headline name on the posters. Yes, there are a few stars in opera, but most opera does not involve them and the music is the main draw. Yes, I go to performances by local orchestras and choirs to support their work, But otherwise, it is the music that attracts me to classical concerts. I'm sure there is a real distinction there. There are both outstanding compositions and outstanding performers. Music that is so wonderful that the performers disappear, and performers that are so wonderful that the music disappears. I think Hayley is the latter, Martin Hmmm... I don't think that the purists would consider West Side Story classical. But Hayley, and the other stars did appear on the cover, and there was more than the one singer involved. So it is with most operas. If you are talking about local and provincial opera and orchestras what you say is certainly true, but I'm still a little sceptical. Bryn Terfel's pulling out of the Wagner Ring thing was a major blow for the production. Still, that is at the top international level. |
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Post by martindn on Nov 8, 2008 20:16:23 GMT
Hi Stuart,
I did include musical theatre in the list of genres where I think the music is promoted over the artists. Musical theatre is perhaps a more populist form of opera after all. And I mentioned that because even with Hayley, there are exceptions.
Martin
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Post by gra7890 on Jul 6, 2009 19:23:07 GMT
On ebay from a seller...... 21 track double ECD album 'Pure' by New Zealand female pop vocalist Hayley Westenra LOOK HEREIs this a step in the right direction  Graham |
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Post by nicola on Jul 7, 2009 6:58:38 GMT
Just to make this clear, people that I have played Hayley to that know nothing about classical music, instantly stamp her as opera. We are all so used to the slightly operatic voice that I suppose we can't hear the difference between a pop and a classical singer, but no one I know classed her as pop (but a lot of would, I imagine). My mum simply put it 'She sings too high'. I even played Becky Jane Taylor's "By Your Side" and my mum gave the same response. I wouldn't have put that album in a million years into an opera category. It's barely even classical! I can only respond to Hayley being called an opera singer with disbelief. I think 'Are these people deaf?' but it's not that they are deaf, it's that they don't know what opera is. José Carreras, Russell Watson, Maria Callas and Katherine Jenkins are all the same to them. Is this ignorance not understandable? Let's take this song for example: Bye Bye Beautiful what would you class this song as? I would bet that the majority of people would call this metal (or even worse, just brand it as rock), but you will find that people in the know of this genre would find that offensive. Metal fans would call this pop, just as opera purists would call Hayley pop. But it still gives you the same idea. I think many of you are forgetting what crossover does. If I said that both Linkin Park and Dream Theater are metal, I don't think many people would argue, and it would mean the same thing to the ignorant public. But who is more accessible? Linkin Park - they will be the representative of the genre, even though they have very little do with the genre. So people will listen to them for the first time, and perhaps like them (because they are radio friendly, afterall), they will then branch from that, talk around on the internet, and learn that they are not metal at all, and they will do research into other artists like them, or move on to real metal. Crossover is the same. Hayley, Katherine, Russell - that is opera to the public right now, and there is nothing harmful about that. The public like categories, and I think the 'opera' sticker is actually quite helpful. Those that know better - well, it doesn't make a difference to us, does it? And I think we all know that these media outlets are not using the word 'opera' in the strictest sense of the word. |
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Post by Libby on Jul 7, 2009 20:26:13 GMT
Pure is definitely more "poppy" than the other 2 albums (not counting HSJS).
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Post by BenCMitchell on Jul 12, 2009 14:18:58 GMT
Hi to one and all!
I'm sure this has been said before, but people who label Hayley as being 'operatic' have no clear idea!
I can see why they might label her as that - due to the fact that she has performed with some of the great operatic singers - Terfel, Bocelli etc. This shows how diverse a musician she is, but to easily call her an opera singer is a bit ignorant. People who call Hayley this probably have never even heard her music!!! More fool them! X2!
I am also agreeing with a comment that 'Stevemacdonald' described - lets not call her a 'crossover' artist either - she is plain and simply an extremely talented and successful musician who is loved by millions!
Ben
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