|
|
Post by James on Jan 27, 2008 21:53:09 GMT
Wasn't "La Boheme" mentioned in Hayley's book? If she once appeared in that, then she HAS sung in an opera, which is more than you can say for that other "opera singer" Katherine Jenkins. This post could go on the Katherine Jenkins board, but there's an interview with her in the Mail on Sunday today (see it online here Here) but Katherine also talks about how people see her as an opera singer but she is not: "The demand for Katherine's sell-out shows is overwhelming proof of her popularity with audiences. But her commercial success has left her open to criticism that she is too lightweight to be an opera singer.
Surprisingly, she is not too hurt by such criticism. “I've never actually called myself an opera singer,” she says.
“Classical, yes, but I'm too young to be doing full opera. I'm still training with my teacher from the Royal Academy and we are getting there.
"By the time I'm 30, my voice should be fully matured. And then, I'm sure it will be, what can I say...up for discussion by the critics.”
Her dream is to sing the lead in Bizet's Carmen at Covent Garden."
In my humble opinion, I woul say that Katherine's voice and training are more "opera" than Hayley's have ever been, but still not the pure opera of an Anna Netrebko or Angela Gheorghiou. Therefore if Katherine is not "opera", there's no way Hayley could ever be considered thus. James |
|
|
|
Post by milewalker on Jan 28, 2008 0:25:52 GMT
Hi James
Beside the training being different than Hayley's it is evident when listening to them that KJ also has had quite a bit more training - not that having less training is a bad thing. Hayley has one of the most amazing "natural" voices I have ever heard. She is probably going to lose a bit of that over the next 5 or 10 years regardless - but the last thing I want to see is her having this natural quality trained out of her voice. I hope she gets enough to simply keep her voice as healthy as possible. Hayley's voice tends the flowers.....most operatic sopranos stomp on them.
Regarding KJ - There are many different sub-groups (fachs) within opera. I suspect that she could handle some of the lighter roles designed for those voices if she wanted to go that route.
Jon
|
|
|
|
Post by postscript on Jan 28, 2008 13:20:56 GMT
Hi James Beside the training being different than Hayley's it is evident when listening to them that KJ also has had quite a bit more training - not that having less training is a bad thing. Hayley has one of the most amazing "natural" voices I have ever heard. She is probably going to lose a bit of that over the next 5 or 10 years regardless - but the last thing I want to see is her having this natural quality trained out of her voice. I hope she gets enough to simply keep her voice as healthy as possible. Hayley's voice tends the flowers.....most operatic sopranos stomp on them. Regarding KJ - There are many different sub-groups (fachs) within opera. I suspect that she could handle some of the lighter roles designed for those voices if she wanted to go that route. Jon You raise an interesting point, Jon. I don't know what/if Katherine had done anything major before but I had a feeling that when Hayley was at The Palladium she introduced Katherine as if it were her first major or proper introduction to the public, having completed her training and presumably gaining a music degree from the Royal Academy. Richard, you were there although you and I did not meet at that event, what is your impression? A relative of mine is very keen on KJ and always pushes the point that Katherine is a trained music teacher as well as trained by the Royal Academy (after she had been teaching music for a few years at presumably a basic school level). She is about four years older than Hayley, I believe. Being a teacher is not necessarily a good accomplishment. I am all too aware of the old adage: 'Those that can do and those that can't teach.' There is a certain truth in that at certain ages and levels of experience in which that comment is NOT derogatory. Maybe the derogatory affinity has been inculcated through misunderstanding the underlying truth: 'When you've done all you can you help those who are just starting out even if you are now past it. . Peter S. |
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Jan 28, 2008 14:03:13 GMT
Hello Peter!  I was very impressed with Hayley, but I prefer not to comment about Katherine Jenkins. She has her own sub-board anyway, so please continue any discussions about her there. Best Wishes, Richard  |
|
|
|
Post by stevemacdonald on Jan 30, 2008 2:05:35 GMT
Hi Steve, As you know, Hayley's been trying to correct the World ever since 2003 when she broke out of New Zealand. To quote an article you posted way back in 2003: I suspect Hayley has long since had to give up on that one. Grrr!!!! Dave But that article opens up another pet peeve of mine: calling her "The Voice of An Angel". |
|
|
|
Post by Natasha on Jan 30, 2008 2:29:41 GMT
Well, here's my two cents! I am currently taking opera training, and as my teacher says almost anyone can sing opera if they have the desire and commitment to learn it. Obviously you need tons of training (learning languages, and waiting for your voice to mature to sing certain songs is part of that) and there will always be people who sound better than others at it, but it is possible. Hayley has a beautiful voice and if she received the proper training she could be an opera singer, the question is does she want to be one? Hayley herself has said, "No." So I think that ends that there. Hayley does lovely renditions of aria's on her albums but she is not an opera singer, and I can see how it makes true opera singers who have spent years training resentful to hear her labeled one. Hayley has tried to state plainly that she isn't one, which I believe has gained her respect from at least some, but unfortunately as Steven has stated, the general public do not know the difference. There is often a very fine line between classical and opera, but for most part most people think songs like "You Raise Me Up" are opera. And well, they're not! lol  Hayley has her own style and brand of crossover music and is wonderful at what she does. It is very natural and "pure" and beautiful. But I must say I do not agree with the statement that "Hayley's voice tends the flowers.....most operatic sopranos stomp on them." Maybe it's because I am being trained operatically so I'm just the smallest bit biased, haha, but I for one find what opera singers do to be very enjoyable and I actually prefer them in the upper register. True, I couldn't listen to Fleming as much as I listen to Hayley, but the technique involved in opera is actually the most relaxed and natural way of using the entire voice.. just thought I'd mention that!  |
|
|
|
Post by milewalker on Jan 30, 2008 2:38:44 GMT
Hi Natasha, Heh I thought the word "natural" meant "occuring by nature" - ie, without having to learn it. How can opera be natural if it takes so much traning  When we was in the city, we was wonderin' where to go.
The sign spelled out "Pagliacci" up in lights above a show.
We thought 'twould be a Western, 'til the stage lit up with light,
And ninety-seven people sung without a horse in sight!
We couldn't understand 'em 'cause spoke a furr'in tongue,
But we can give you some idea of what we think they sung...
Ridi, Pagliacio!! Sul tu'amore infranto
All at once there's a fat guy in a clown suit.
T'ain't Haller-ween, that's fer shore.
Then this here feller, this Punchy Neller,
Begins to beller – Like we all was deef.
Aaaahh ha haa haa haa haa
That was Pal-yat-chee, and he sung:
Invest in a tuba, and sum'pin' or other 'bout Cuba.
He sung about a lady, who weighed two-hunderd and eighty!
When she takes a powder, he just starts chirpin' louder,
And he don't do a gol' darn thing, 'cept to stand up there and sing.
When we listen to Pal-yat-chee,
We get itchy and scratchy.
This sure is top corn,
So we go and buy some popcorn;
We hate to go back,
But we can't get our dough back,
Ain't no use complainin'
'Cause outside it's a-rainin'.
Seven hours later,
We're still in the durn theater.
Takin' turns a-nappin'
Waitin' for somethin' to happen.
Pal-yat-chee, he ain't hurryin'
But the folks on stage are flurryin'
And it sounds like Ketchy-tur-eean's Sabre Dance.
Then ol' Pal-yat-chee finds the guy he seekin' cheek to cheekin' with his wife,
He grabs the knife and stabs the louse who stole his spouse,
And then he stabs the lady and himself.
T'ain't very sanitary.
They all collapse, but ol' Pal-yat-chee sets up,
Then he gets up singin' "I am dyin', I am dyin', I am dyin''"
We start cryin', 'cause, to tell the truth, we're dyin', too.
As the footlights fade out,
We see Pal-yat-chee laid out,
But the dagger never caused it.
Pal-tay-chee was plumb exhausted.
Ridi, Pagliacco! Sul tu'amore in....Jon - with a nod to Spike Jones, who expressed the American view of opera much better than I can |
|
|
|
Post by milewalker on Jan 30, 2008 4:21:32 GMT
But that article opens up another pet peeve of mine: calling her "The Voice of An Angel". Heh I think I had better refrain from commenting - oops wait a minute....I already did! Jon |
|
|
|
Post by chantelle on Jan 30, 2008 4:21:38 GMT
Well, I would have thought Natasha had said the final, and most sensible, word on the subject, but apparently there is still some confusion... By "natural," those of us with opera training do not mean the voice that occurs naturally, but the optimum, and most healthy way in which to utilize the vocal chords. Yes, Hayley has a very pretty naturally occurring voice. But if you've listened to, say, any high school choirs lately, you'll know that this is generally not the case! Most "naturally occurring" voices are anything but pretty! Are proper breathing, a properly open throat when singing high notes, and correct diction natural things? No! I hate to break anyone's bubble, but no one, not even Hayley , is born perfect. People with inclinations towards dance have to be taught how to do it properly, lest they damage their bodies. It's the same with singing; and speaking, too! After all, how many "self improvement" books are there on optimizing your speaking voice, so as to make a "better impression"? Some singers, such as Hayley, are gifted with naturally occurring proper technique (and with prescience enough to improve on that gift with training!), but most have to be taught (and taught and taught!) how to use the voice in the most natural, and healthy way. And as for Hayley being too "slight of build" to sing opera? With all courtesy, I would like to know where you got the idea that someone has to be heavy to sing opera! Take a look at Kathleen Battle-- slender and willowy, with a perfectly gorgeous operatic voice!! Weight, height, build, etc, has nothing to do with someone's ability to sing opera! (Or any genre, for that matter. Did Judy Garland have a tiny voice, just because she was 4' 11"? Um, no.) |
|
|
|
Post by milewalker on Jan 30, 2008 7:46:34 GMT
Heh In the first place Chantelle - it really all boils down in part to a matter of personal taste. I happen to dislike opera - in particular the sopranos - to some extent, but that is just me of course. I tend to be a bit iconoclastic by nature - I had no intention of offending..... As far as personal size is concerned, there are always exceptions to the rule. There have been professional (American) football players who weighed 180 pounds. This doesnt change the fact that the average player weighs more like 300. There have been professional basketball players who were 5' 8". The average player is about a foot taller than that. As far as where I got the idea, I first heard it in college from a music professor -one of my minors was in music. I might add that nothing in my experience has changed that because the average soprano I have seen weighs around 180 pounds if not a bit more. If you read above you will find that Dame Malvina apparantly subscribes to the same theory. Here is another relevant quote: "Yes, the extra weight that some of us carry around in the middle does act as a sort of natural engager of the abdominal muscles-it makes it easier to tighten them up. During the times when I've succeeded in dropping 15 to 20 pounds, I haven't felt quite as grounded, and my support isn't quite as strong. - Deborah Voight To be fair, that quote was in the context of an article about a new and smaller trend in singers - and Deborah has lost some weight in an attempt to improve her overal health. However, it was still in response to a published comment by Peter Katona - the casting director of the Royal Opera House - to the effect that some opera singers use their profession as an excuse to eat too much, rationalizing that the greater the weight, the greater the power of the voice. The expression "The opera isnt over till the fat lady sings" didnt come from nothing Chantelle. Lurching unsteadily back to topic ... As far as training for the purpose of vocal health is concerned, I mentioned this myself above. I hope that Hayley gets just enough training to keep her voice healthy. What I also said above was that Hayley had an amazing natural voice. Being able to produce enough volume to be able to strip the paint off of my living room wall is simply not natural in my opinion. Quite frankly I have heard some dozens of untrained singers in high schools and churches who have voices that I personally prefer to that of most trained sopranos. As for the rest, I wish you health, wealth, and luck in your chosen field of training. Jon |
|
|
|
Post by chantelle on Jan 30, 2008 15:17:10 GMT
Just because a voice does not have an operatic sound does not mean it is not a trained voice!
This is also due to the same reason that means size does not matter! Forgive me if I offend anyone's religious beliefs, but really, it's just a matter of the type of voice God gave you! How else do you account for the fact that you could have two women, equal in size and weight, and one would be an alto, and the other a soprano? And similarly, just because a woman is a soprano (with operatic inclinations) doesn't mean she is able to sing all of the roles from Isolde to Mimi! There are dramatic sopranos, lyrics sopranos, coloratura sopranos, and many more fachs. Hayley happens to have been given a very sweet and light instrument. As her voice matures, and therefore deepens and richens, she will probably be capable, if she wishes, of singing soubrette soprano roles, much like Dawn Upshaw.
Have you heard Dawn's "I Wish it So" album? Does she honestly strike you as a "screaming soprano"?
I can't agree with you that slender singers are the exception. They are a representation of humanity, as is every person of differing weight that you see on the street, regardless of whether they sing or not! A very fine and very thin soprano in my acquaintance, Katharina Janik-Bossman, spent several successful years singing in opera houses in Europe. I would venture to say that I, myself, am far more petite than Hayley, yet I possess a much larger voice than she does.
Furthermore, if the theory of Big Voice = Big Body were true, then basses, with their massive, rumbling voices, should be of such gargantuan physical size that I shouldn't think they'd be able to walk! But thankfully, this is not the case. I know several men with fine bass voices who are, in fact, almost charicatures of the tall and skinny "scarecrow" type.
Should Natasha Marsh and Anna Netrebko gain twenty pounds so as to sound 'better'? If they did so they would certainly sound different, but not necessarily better. Since singing involves the whole body, of course a weight change affects the sound of the voice, but there is no writ-in-stone rule that says that change will be for better or for worse! Extra weight around the middle does provide a kind of built-in support system, and therefore, singers who have been overweight all their lives who suddenly lose a lot of weight are uncomfortable, and must re-train themselves to provide support in other ways. But that is not to say it is impossible or incorrect to do so! It is merely different. And keep in mind that the opposite is true: a skinny singer who suddenly gains weight must also learn to compensate for the changed state of their body; for the changed size of their resonance chamber.
As for the traditional "fat lady," I'm not a musical historian. I can't speak for the Wagnerian sopranos by which that statement was inspired. But really, when we're so eager in this modern age to rid ourselves other operatic stereotypes such as diva-like behavior, is it fair to hold up that old war horse?
|
|
|
|
Post by stevemacdonald on Feb 21, 2008 13:41:14 GMT
Hey again,
I took notice today of another term that rubs me the wrong way: singing sensation. Here you'll see it in the piece from the Cornish Guardian which Stephany posted earlier:
Hayley hasn't been a "singing sensation" since she was 16, and that should be the final year such a gee-wiz term should apply to anyone. Couldn't they have gone with a less tired, less patronising cliche, like "world-class vocalist", or "crossover superstar"? Anything but "singing sensation"!
(End of rant)
|
|
|
|
Post by Libby on Feb 24, 2008 4:26:22 GMT
How is Hayley not a singing sensation anymore. To me, she is! Her singing certainly can create beautiful sensations! All right, I suppose her novelty in the media may have died down a little since Pure, but her other albums have been fairly successful, too. She's still one of the biggest singing stars in New Zealand, so I would say she's still a singing sensation there. I don't see what's so bad about the term "singing sensation". She is an amazing singer, so it's not inaccurate. "World-class vocalist" to some people might sound like she is some opera star. True, she is a classical crossover singer, but she is a sensational one! |
|
|
|
Post by milewalker on Feb 24, 2008 4:57:46 GMT
Hi Libby,
One meaning of the word "sensation" in this context implies that the singer is a "flavor of the month" - ie a fad, a craze, something that will not last.
In fact, even in its normal context, a "sensation" is a passing thing - when I was out shoveling my walk I had the sensation of being cold. Now that I am inside, that sensation is gone.
My personal opinion is that any such expression becomes trite when overused.
Jon
|
|
|
|
Post by Libby on Mar 4, 2008 4:35:35 GMT
I'm not saying they used the best word, and not a word I would have chosen. But we can't control what the journalists write, and I don't think it's a big deal.
You're right, sensations are temporary. Even the beautiful sound of Hayley's voice is temporary. That's why we like to listen to her songs multiple times, because we like the way it sounds and how it makes us feel. But the feelings may not last long after you're done listening to it.
Hayley is only human, so even her voice creates only temporary "sensations", beautiful as it is.
I'm not going to be concerned about it anymore.
|
|
