Review of Odyssey

[Dave]

I am not one for gushing praise at everything "Hayley" and if I don't like something, I will politely say so (and have done!). But yesterday when I re-read my short review of UK Odyssey, I did begin to wonder if I had "gushed" a bit too much about it

Well, I've had this version of Odyssey for 19 days now but I hadn't played it for a couple of days so I decided to play it again tonight - and I just have done. Now, I have to say... sadly and with apologies to a few of you that... I absolutely love it to bits and I'm going to play it again!!!.

There, how's that for a short and sweet re-review?

Cheers, Dave

[Richard]

Well said Dave!

That's basically what I was trying to say in my long review, in a nutshell! :2fun:

Bye for now,

Richard

[nicola]

Hey all,

I posted my review on amazon.co.uk (as I always do, you can find a review by me on each of her albums on there) I gave it 3 out of 5 stars for the reasons I state in my review. It's just my take on the album. Unfortunately, I didn't like it that much Just so you all know, I am a very hard person to please and a harsh critic. Majority of my reviews are 4 stars or less on anybody.

Title of review: Just not emotional enough.
* * * * *

After hearing Hayley sing some of these songs live I was very much looking forward to getting this album. Hayley, unlike so many other artists, has a better voice for a live audience. Her recording voice is somewhat sedated.

Overall, this offering from Hayley is a disappointment on many levels. Hayleys voice has matured, and has let go of that bell like clarity from 'Pure' and sings with a lot more vibrato, this is an up for me. But the same problem remains on this album as did on 'Pure' and her other New Zealand releases: she lacks emotion. I don't think Hayley Westenra is a highly emotional music listening experience. It's background music. Don't get me wrong, her voice is very sweet, it's very high pitched. It seems to remain on that pitch. Her voice lacks diversity that so many other classical crossover artists have. She just sounds bored.

The tracklisting has many problems. First of all, do you see anything original? I didn't think so. It's either classical repertoire or cover songs like 'Both Sides Now', 'May It Be' and 'What You Never Know'. Ironically, 'What You Never Know' possesses the only original material on the album, as this cover of Sarah Brightman has an extra chorus written in by Hayley. The lyrics of this extra chorus is nothing amazing (I'm falling for you... I'm falling for you...) - but at the start of what is perhaps Hayleys music writing career the music is quite impressive and it's a sweet part of the song. Hayley's not so wonderful production team has taken what is normally the emotive and atmospheric 'Both Sides Now' and torn into a million pieces by making it a bit upbeat (very much in the same way as they did on 'Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again' from her first album). Personally, for me, an Enya song should never be covered for no one can achieve the sound that she does, the same rings true here. Her rendition of 'May It Be' does absolutely nothing for me and it was originally done by her I wouldn't have given it a second listen. I know that Hayley really likes these songs and so wanted to do her own touch on them. I'll also never know what possesses an artist to decide to do 'Ave Maria'. It may sound different to them singing it but to the audience - we have heard it over a hundred times. If I counted every single artist in my CD Collection of who has done 'Ave Maria' and 'She Moves Through The Fair' we would be in the two digits area. Having said that, the arrangement to Hayleys 'She Moves Through The Fair' is very moving.

So what does this album have to offer? By looking at the tracklisting you might already know. The highlights of this album are probably the duet with Andrea Bocelli (not for my taste, but its a very different feeling song with tension grabbing percussion) and 'She Moves Through The Fair'. 'I Say Grace' is a bit swingy and old fashioned. 'My Heart Belongs To You' feels like a rather mediocre pop ballad. 'Prayer' is a nice little gem and 'Never Saw Blue' is kind of forgettable (though she done it much better live). This CD has some contemporary pop songs and some classical repertoire. Unfortunately, this is nothing we haven't been treated to before.

This album is not as good as 'Pure' (though it suffered with a lot of the same problems), but her voice HAS improved. Yes, it could be a little more emotive but this album is the milestone where Hayley is finally turning into a woman and experimenting with different songs and classical pieces. It just so happens to be an experiment that doesn't meet my tastes. As any listener of Hayleys previous albums would know, her voice is truly beautiful - there just needs to be some emotional input. I'll still be looking forward to the next one.

So there is my two cents

[gareth]

Well, Nicola,

You do have courage in posting this - and I think it is an honest opinion. And frankly, reading your review, I must say I can recognise some of it.

I think that the main quality of Hayley's voice is the crystal pure character of that voice. But I have been getting the same feeling, namely that true emotion isn't readily reconisable in the songs she sings.

In fact a year ago, I considered Hayley to be a better singer than Katherine Jenkins. Since that time, I have gradually been getting the impression that Katherine has much more emotion in her voice. At this stage I am undecided, though I have gradually been moving towards Katherine as my favourite of these two. I have ordered both Odyssey and Living A Dream from Amazon, and a comparison between those two albums may well be the deciding factor.

And to be honest - based on the clips I have heard sofar from both albums, Living A Dream holds the edge for me.

Regardless of which way my musical taste develops though, I will continue to fully support both Hayley and Katherine (and quite a few other singers, for that matter).

Gerrit

[fusilier23]

Hmmm, a tough but honest review of Odyssey, and it does point up some facts that can't be ignored. I do disagree with regard to some of the tracks, I actually think upping the beat on "Both Sides Now" is an improvement over Judy Collins, whose arrangment, and I must also say her voice, always sounded a little "off" to me, and I happen to really like "Never Saw Blue," although I never heard any other arrangments of it before this one. I think that song fits Hayley's voice and the stage she is at in life just like that glass slipper fit Cinderella and makes for a nice little entry into musical and personal early adulthood.

As to the question of why artists do "Ave Maria" I think the answer is pretty obvious: it's something that most people know, partly by virtue of it's indiscriminate use for weddings AND funerals. There are many more arrangments of it that haven't been done often, including a great one in French by Charles Gounod alone, and that too would sound great in Hayley's voice.

I have actually the opposite reaction to "She Moved Through the Fair," but that would hold if anyone did it, I think that song's a dirge. I like "May it Be" but I liked the version on the DVD, with the orchestral postlude better. Still, there is no track on this I can say I can't stand, and I think the whole point is that there's something for everyone.

Emotion is another issue, I suppose. I have never looked for huge amounts from concert singers, and I think some opera singers way overdo it, but, it's something that only comes with time and experience. Hayley, thankfully, has not had too much happen to her that would shake her up emotionally, but I'm sure as she experiences more, the emotion level will go up.

I'm glad you've decided to stick with her, though, yes-men are not all that helpful to her in the long run.

[Dave]

gareth said:

Well, Nicola,
In fact a year ago, I considered Hayley to be a better singer than Katherine Jenkins. Since that time, I have gradually been getting the impression that Katherine has much more emotion in her voice. At this stage I am undecided, though I have gradually been moving towards Katherine as my favourite of these two. I have ordered both Odyssey and Living A Dream from Amazon, and a comparison between those two albums may well be the deciding factor.

And to be honest - based on the clips I have heard sofar from both albums, Living A Dream holds the edge for me.
Regardless of which way my musical taste develops though, I will continue to fully support both Hayley and Katherine (and quite a few other singers, for that matter).
Gerrit

The emotion of "the singer" and who is "the best singer" are, I think, only part of what we like about a performance (in this case, an album). What matters the most to me is the emotion in me after listening to the album. There are many aspects of a performance or album that can induce emotion in me, other than the emotion expressed in each individual song by the singer. To give an example, some wonderfully expressive and emotional singers leave me cold by their choice of songs, lyrics, inability to sing properly in tune, backing instruments, album track order or sometimes, the actual sound of their voice (however skilled they may be). And what if the singer is fabulously emotional in each song - exactly as each song writer intended - but the emotions of successive songs are different and clash, as the album progresses? I could argue that less emotion expressed on individual tracks might in such a case improve the overall feel of the album.

But irrespective of the quality of singing (pureness/emotion etc.), nobody but nobody I know of has succeeded in stretching the boundaries of classical crossover music as far on either side of that boundary - on the same album - as Hayley. This is partly why she has had problems getting her albums approved for the classical charts in the UK - tracks so far on the 'wrong' side of the boundary that they can't be made to fit the classification. Every other classical crossover singer/group I can think of has stayed closer to the boundary line than Hayley and for that, whatever one thinks of individual songs or styles that Hayley performs, she deserves a great deal of credit. It is Hayley who resisted record company attempts to pigeonhole or restrict her (e.g. the Wuthering Heights battle) - but she will NOT be pigeonholed. Bravo for her, I say!

Hayley's unique repertoire explains at least in part why she is currently my favourite singer. Put that *in the right order* into into a single album, as Hayley has now done twice, and for me, the whole album becomes greater than the sum of the individual parts. This cannot be said about many albums including, to a certain extent I think, one or two versions of Odyssey.

Let me give a specific example. When I first heard "She Moves Through the Fair" on the International version of Odyssey I was never particularly keen on it. This was partly because of the use of pipes but I am now convinced it was mostly because of its positioning on the album and the surrounding tracks (Bachianas, She Moves, I Say Grace). Yet, I LOVE both of the surrounding tracks!!! But after I heard "She Moves" on the UK edition, my opinion of it was transformed and now, I love it to pieces. This is again partly because they dropped the pipes but mainly, it just sounds so perfectly positioned (O Mio, Laudate, Wiegenlied, She Moves, Dido's Lament). They blend together wonderfully for me and it makes a perfect ending to the album - these tracks compliment each other and the whole is most certainly, for me, much greater than the sum of the individual tracks. They produce, together, emotion *in me* and that's what matters. In fact, I could extend this to the entire album - I simply love the choice of tracks and the track order on the UK edition. Track by track reviews and analyses for an album such as this simply don't tell the whole story.

I have now dropped my earlier reservations about several of the individual tracks on Odyssey as I realise it is the album as a whole that matters. People who don't "get it" will disagree with me - but that's the wonderful thing about music - we all have different 'takes' on it and nobody is all right, nobody is all wrong!

Dave

[kcuteus1]

to me emotion in singing is very important but this is because I am very much into musicals and I think for someone to do thoughs songs good they have to have the right emotion. I know that there are some people in musicals that go over borad but I also think that someone that does not show any emotion I am left cold . I also am not to into singers doing songs that are very sad and doing tham with a smile .


I like Hayley but some of the songs she does I would like a little more out of tham and some of the arranemts of some of her songs I do not like tham. Like wishing you were somehow here. I think hers is too upbeart . I think Hayley is alot like singers Lisa Kelly, Meav, Chloe,Aoife Ferry and so on . Hayley more do a little more classical stuff tham than but I do not think there is much different and I think Hayley sure be doing alot of the stuff they do as that her voice is alot like theres.

[Richard]

Hello everybody!

I can't really add anything to what Dave has said, and I like both the Australian and UK versions of "Odyssey". Judging by the clips I've heard, I'm not so keen on the American version because it's too poppy for Hayley's voice, but I would buy it if I came across a copy here in the UK.

One thing I really admire about Hayley is her determination to be herself. Nobody could ever accuse her of trying to copy somebody else's style, nor has anybody ever pushed her into something against her will. Hayley's success proves that she is doing the right thing. As for the emotion she puts into her singing, it's adequate for me at the moment, and listening to the steady development of her voice since 2001, which was only four years ago, I'm sure she will put more emotion into her singing as she gets older and more experienced in life.

Hayley is still very young, and I'm looking forward to hearing how she sounds when she's 25.

Best Wishes from London,

Richard

[nicola]

Woah, I got some feedback I don't know about 'brave' as I know you are all open-minded people. Like I said before, I am critical of any artist I like if I am not overly pleased with the end product. I even gave one of Sarah Brightmans cds one star, and that is saying something. I'm very fond of Hayley and don't mean any offence. She is a lovely woman and a sweet singer. It's very pleasent to listen to her but like I said before, it's not a very emotional experience for me.

To give an example, some wonderfully expressive and emotional singers leave me cold by their choice of songs, lyrics, inability to sing properly in tune, backing instruments, album track order or sometimes, the actual sound of their voice (however skilled they may be).

Well, surely that singer isn't a very good one if they can't sing in tune. The most emotional singers for me are Keedie, Sarah Brightman (not all the time) and Becky Taylor, Keedie especially. Now, of course, none of these artists which I tend to favour are not perfect. Sarah has a lot of problems which I have already listed in her thread, Keedie relies too heavily on vibrato and Becky lacks the range that all the others have. Obviously, it is down to personal preference; which aspects you find most important in a singer. I like a balance. Yes, these singers lack something but they only appear to be minor to me. I like a singer that moves me. Hayley totally and utterly lacks emotion. Yes, she has a very beautiful crystal clear voice and actually, I felt emotion from her when she was singing live... but not on disc. Therefore, it is my belief that Hayley is capable of it but she chooses to downside it when it comes to the CDs in order to highlight her range instead and crystal like voice instead. I don't blame her at this point - it's her selling point. It is commercially expected of Hayley. To bring emotion in she has to break away from this 'Pure' image and like I said in the review, Odyssey is the beginning of that change (at least that is what I believe).

But irrespective of the quality of singing (pureness/emotion etc.), nobody but nobody I know of has succeeded in stretching the boundaries of classical crossover music as far on either side of that boundary - on the same album - as Hayley. This is partly why she has had problems getting her albums approved for the classical charts in the UK - tracks so far on the 'wrong' side of the boundary that they can't be made to fit the classification.

I'd have to disagree, mainly because you put so much emphasis on 'nobody, but nobody'. If you look at artists such as Russell Watson, Andrea Bocelli, Sarah Brightman, Vanessa Mae, Bond and Keedie you may find that OTHER artists have indeed stretched that boundary. None of these artists are failures. Sarah Brightman and Bond are even banned from the UK classical charts (yet they let in Josh Groban... someone can explain that to me if they wish). My apologies, but I think your comment on this subject was biased and assumptious. By no means do I mean any offence. I'm not saying that these people are better than Hayley (Sarah has had 30 years more experience than has had Hayley, for example). The situation is difficult to measure which is why I think a statement like that is just ridiculous. 'Ridiculous' is kind of offensive I know, but I can't think of a better word right now. I really do not mean offence.

Personally, I don't like the definite attitude of 'I love this person, she is flawless, he is perfect'. No one is perfect especially at Hayleys age. It's not like I haven't considered her lack of experience, hence I am still a fan, hence I am on this forum, hence I said I was still looking forward to her next album. I am very interested in watching Hayley grow. She has improved since her first album and I have already said I think her singing has improved from Pure. An artist never stops growing and they learn new things with every new CD. This is what I expect of Hayley and I think I am right in doing so.

Kindest, kindest, kindest regards
Nic x x

[Dave]

nicola said:

Woah, I got some feedback I don't know about 'brave' as I know you are all open-minded people. Like I said before, I am critical of any artist I like if I am not overly pleased with the end product. .
[snip]
Personally, I don't like the definite attitude of 'I love this person, she is flawless, he is perfect'. No one is perfect especially at Hayleys age.

Hello Nicola!

Yes, feedback is good - your review is thought provoking! I do think that what matters most is the end product not the details; and no singer or musician is perfect. Perfection for some is just the opposite for others and aspects of performance that some people consider important are less important for others. The emotion (acting ability?) expressed by a singer in a particular song is one aspect and many people place this high on the list. Others do not... unless in my case I happen to be in the mood for it, in which case I will choose a suitable song or album to play. And in the case of albums, the emotional impact of the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts, so they are best reviewed as a complete entity rather than track by track. Even then, there's plenty of room for disagreement between reviewers!

I stand by what I have said before: I find that some individual tracks on Odyssey are disappointing. But taken as a whole, I like the way the UK version has been put together and by the end of it, when I am in the mood, it induces emotion in *me* - and that's what counts (for me). I cannot say the same about the International edition, even though I do like the two omitted tracks - but that's just me.

Regarding the broad range of Hayley's brand of crossover, I can see when I read it again that I didn't say what I meant. I was thinking of the current crop of albums by crossover singers in the UK classical chart; some of those on your list have recorded at least as wide a range of musical styles (on the same album) as Hayley, although they didn't all get into the classical chart!

Cheers, Dave

[Natasha]

nicola said:

"and Becky lacks the range that all the others have"

Actually Becky is a soprano so she easily exceeds Katherine Jenkins in range. Becky does use a very deep voice on her new album and sticks mainly to the lower range but according to those who recently saw Becky she can still hit those high notes and Becky has stated that in her next records she will be using it again! I just thought I would point that out, lol.

And about Hayley's emotion, Hayley does have emotion when she sings live like you said. I just witnessed it! On her recordings though, I'll admit its less evident. More on the classical numbers but then it could be hard to be expressive on a song like "Aria" which says nothing but "ah."

I noticed the lack of emotion on recordings of another singer, Charlotte Church. She truly lived her music but on her albums ... yes, she was always on tune and angelically beautiful but emotion???

Hugs,
Natasha

[roger]

OMG! If I were to reply to everything that has been said on this thread over the past 24 hours ort so, I would need to take a week off work to do it! I will just pick up on one or two points.

First of all (and this may surprise many) I agree with a lot of what Nicola said. But, as Dave has mentioned, it is the emotion in me that is important - to me and Hayley's voice always makes me emotional no matter what she sings or how she sings it.

Pigeonholing has been mentioned several times and Hayley has been commended for not allowing it to happen to her. Well IMO, the tracklisting on the UK version of Odyssey (compared with that on the International version) comes dangerously close to pigeonholing it. It has been recognised that Pure has something for everyone. That may just be true of the International version of Odyssey (although I'm not convinced) but the UK version, no way. Again in my opinion, it is less pop and less celtic in the overall 'feel' of the album, and therefore closer to classical without being truly classical (if that makes sense). As such, it has greatly reduced the potential market which is vital for a sustained chart success.

I agree with Steven that the fully orchestrated introduction should have been kept in 'May It Be'. Without it, a truly remarkable work has been reduced to merely another pleasant song. However, Steve Abbott told me months ago that this change would be made for Odyssey so that the track would be in keeping with the rest of the album. He likened the DVD version to the Rossini crescendo in 'Benedictus'. In other words, there seems to have been a deliberate attempt towards pigeonholing it although it may not have been seen as such.

I have also never liked 'She Moves Through the Fair' but Hayley's version is easily the best I have heard. However, that is partly because of the arrangement - and specifically, the inclusion of the Uillean pipes. Without them, something special is lost. Again, Steve Abbott told me that the pipes would not be on the UK version for the same reason - ie, not in keeping with the rest of the album. In other words, it was a move towards pigeonholing.

I don't suppose there was ever a deliberate attempt to pigeonhole Odyssey. It was merely felt that the enite album should be gentle, beautiful, serene.... but that eliminates variety, dynamics, something for everyone. In other words, we have a lovely album that has been pigeonholed (the UK version anyway). I think I've made my point!

Finally, I would like to underline something Natasha said. The first time I heard Becky's latest CD I was hugely impressed by her vocal range. Funny how we seem to hear things differently!

To sum up, Odyssey is beautiful and I love it. However, I need to be in the mood to listen to it. But Pure, I could listen to any time...... because that was not pigeonholed and I still get very emotional whenever I listen to it.

Roger

PS. Thanks to Nicola for beginning a lively and healthy discussion.

[kcuteus1]

Roger I feel diferent about the Uk Odyssey I do not think it has less of a celtic feel I feel that it has more of a celtic feel there are many reasons why I feel this way. yes it does have more classical songs on it but some of the classical songs on it do not have that much of a classical arranment to me. I also do that think the Uk Odyssey is much different than alot of the celtic cds I have. And some of theses have classical songs on them. I think she is trying to much in the Uk to be a classical singer and she is not . I think the celtic stuff is best for her vocie like the deer cry and so on. And Roger I do argee the Uk one is very close to pigeonholing. But i still do not think it is very classical .

[Dave]

Gosh, this is a great thread, I am learning a lot of new stuff about musical styles and especially about Hayley's!

I'm not sure that pigeonholed is the right word to describe Hayley on the UK version of Odyssey, surely her spread of styles is still too wide to fit that description? I'm searching for the right word and all that comes to mind at the moment is "themed", although it may not be that either, as any theme seems to gradually shift as the album progresses. I just have a feeling that there is a common factor that links all the tracks and matches the track order... I'll work out what it is, in the end!!!

But I do think an effort has been made to make Odyssey (all versions) flow more smoothly than did Pure and certainly, there are no sudden jolts this time. That might explain why May It Be was arranged as it is... and paradoxically, although She Moves Through The Fair was altered to get it into the classical chart, I think the "classical" (pipeless) version blends better with the tracks on ether side.

You may have guessed that I love Concept Albums (going right back to Sgt. Pepper!) so as the UK Odyssey seems a bit closer to that than the International Odyssey and Pure, I possibly slightly prefer it now - even though none of its tracks are as good as the very best tracks on Pure. ( what an admission!!! )

But whatever style it is or is not, I think the "Hayley mixture" is still unique. Not necessarily better, just unique, certainly attractive to me and if there are other singers out there like Hayley, I'd love to discover them!

Cheers, Dave

[roger]

Hey, I could spend the rest of the night replying to Dave's last post alone with which I broadly agree.

You're right, Dave. "Pigeonholed" isn't quite the right word. I used it because it had appeared in several earlier posts on this thread. However, I was not suggesting that Hayley has been pigeonholed - but I think Odyssey has to some extent.

Yes, an effort was made to make Odyssey flow more smoothly than Pure and that is exactly why 'May It Be' was arranged in this way. But is that a good thing? The result is very pleasing to some but I don't think it will appeal to the masses in the way that Pure did.

I definitely agree with your admission, Dave. None of the tracks on Odyssey are as good as the very best tracks on Pure. They are sung beautifully, of course, but the material itself is not quite in the same class. That brings me back to something I said when I first heard the Odyssey clips which was.....

Where is the song with the hook?

A beautiful voice alone is not enough to sell albums by the million. The tracks, individually and collectively, have to have their own appeal, as do the arrangements. Individually, some of them do but collectively, they don't. They are too similar in their overall effect.

I agree again Dave, this is a fascinating thread. Keep posting folks!

Roger