Don't call her an opera singer!

[stevemacdonald]

I'm getting fed up with all the silly stories in the media that refer to Hayley as an opera singer. Here's one of them: click.

Not only is it musically inaccurate to label her an opera singer, it's bad for her career to be lumped in with true opera stars whose vocal styles can be a huge turn off to many people. In case you didn't know, opera consistently comes in dead last among most people's musical preferences.

Hayley may overlap in range with opera singers and has dabbled a bit with a few arias, but that's where the similarity ends. Her stylings are much smoother and more pleasant on the ears and are so removed from the lyrical screamings of conservatory-trained sopranos that to associate her with the world of opera, however innocently, is a massive injustice.

I contend that Hayley's career would thrive considerably more if her name and reputation were completely disentangled from opera. It's just too much of a stigma to bear for someone with a voice that most would regard as gorgeous if they weren't scared away beforehand.

Of course, it may be too late. The Hayley-as-opera-singer meme has been afoot for years. Perhaps she'll need to come out with a song entitled "I'm Not An Opera Singer" and perform it at the White House before it goes away.

[Dave]

Hi Steve,

As you know, Hayley's been trying to correct the World ever since 2003 when she broke out of New Zealand. To quote an article you posted way back in 2003:

"It's funny when people say, `opera singer.' I'm not an opera singer." [said Hayley to the NY Times]

I suspect Hayley has long since had to give up on that one. Grrr!!!!

Dave

[socalboy]

What’s worse is that categorizing Hayley as an opera star presents an opportunity for the most obnoxious of the opera purists to trash her as not worthy – and they never miss a chance to do just that.

Part of the problem in the UK, it seems to me, is that the chart success of Hayley’s albums is due in part to their possessing the “classical” designation, and there is a tendency to conflate classical and opera. As long as she is competing on the classical charts I would suspect this problem will not go away. For those in the UK, I’m wondering if Katherine Jenkins is similarly stigmatized.

[fusilier23]

Eh, it kinda goes with the territory. More people read the paper than have musical training, and although most folks aren't QUITE as musically inept as, say, the Duke of Wellington (who famously said once that he knew two tunes, one was "God Save the King" and one wasn't), to most casual listeners anything with actual vocal tone and a few high notes qualifies as "opera," and any singer who steps out on stage with an orchestra is an opera singer. Most people also don't like to be corrected or when others "split hairs," so an explanation of the difference between an opera singer and a classical crossover singer is likely to be either misunderstood or dismissed by Joe Sixpack.

Hayley's best bet is just to keep on doing her thing. Those who care will eventually make the distinction, and as for those who don't, as long as they keep buying the CDs and tickets, who cares?

[chungchungxavier]

Well , she IS a POPera singer / a classical crossover singer.

She is just no OPera singer .

But Geez , that line is SOOOOOOO blurred .

And I think people would label Hayley as a "opera" singer because she work for DECCA , the same record company that market Joan Sutherland and Renee Fleming .

That is almost inevitable .

[James]

Dave,

Thanks for posting the link - that was an interesting article I hadn't seen before.

Surely it depends which song you hear as to what category you would classify Hayley into? There are songs that could be construed as opera (One Fine Day), classical (Lascia Ch'io Pianga), pop (Wuthering Heights), Celtic (Danny Boy), country (Summer Fly), musical theatre (Memory) and Folk (Both Sides Now) (and probably some other styles I haven't thought of). No one style is any better than any other and it's the press and probably younger music fans who have to pigeonhole everything to fit their often narrow outlook on what they regard as their genre.

Suffice to say, I try not to categorise her as any one of those styles, I just think of Hayley as a top quality singer and I like her music regardless of whatever label is put on it.


James

[Nordly]

yeowch! that's too many styles for an opera singer to sing... Hayley is so NOT opera. Opera music is fine, but please PLEASE don't call Hayley opera! Her voice is not operatic(operatic voices really aren't usually high on my list of music faves) and her song selection is so much more than opera.

~Nordly

[milewalker]

In a perfect world James, your position is exactly how I feel one should look at Hayley. The problem is that (as I have mildly suggested before ) for the most part her career does not occur in such a world, or even among the musically sophisticate. Nor does It does occur in the realm of the people Steven above referred to as Joe Sixpack. It occurs in the group of people between those extremes.

The confusion about her niche isnt going to go away because we wish it to, and it does create a big problem in terms of her marketing - especially in the US. Where does one go in a record store to find her CD's? I could cite five different stores in St Louis who have her placed in five different sections. What happens when you arent big enough to even have a specific crossover section- or are generically market driven like Target? She does a lot of things very well - and isnt generally perceived by most people as excelling in any of them - and that is exactly the principle behind camouflage.

Socialboy - I understand your concern about the reception the misnomer creates among the hard core opera set - but I doubt that there are enough of them to really create a problem for her. The tiny number of people upset about it wouldnt buy her records anyway - and the people one step away (also a limited market, but less so) who might be swayed by sour reviews are the one place she is excelling already

Some people simply like "good music" without being very concerned about its artistic impact. They dont attend operas, and in fact, as Steve rightly noted above dont consider most opera to be "good music". These are the people she could sell to and for the most part does not - and calling her an "opera singer" certainly does her no good in that group.

Jon - who is somewhat irritated that the people who write this clearly do not take Hayley seriously enough to be bothered to get basic facts straight.


Thanks for the links Dave and Steve....

[postscript]

In response to your starting this thread Steve, I think we need to remember her autobiography.

1. She was cut to the quick by an unamed (Hayley's courtesy again) man who said that if she didn't throw away her record contract and start studying she'd ruin her chance to be a 'great opera singer'.

2. Dame Malvina told her not to take any notice and deliberately did not steer her in any direction other than 'to be true to herself; (page 62 hb).

3. My own feeling is that she could do opera, in its real sense, but not now. There was a comment from a newspaper that was somewhat sneered at on this site as to whether she was soprano or mezzo. Given the next five to seven years, during which her voice will settle to its 'final' pitch, I think she could handle lower notes and move into that range. However, it would be good, then, to hear a non-opera singer sing opera!

4.I call to mind a college friend of mine who had the advantage of his bedroom filling the entire floor area of one wing of his family's home. I used to drop in on him before catching the bus home at the end of the day.

His speakers were bolted into the wall corners of the bay so the whole house acted as a baffle. It was he who lured me into acquiring my first (secondhand) Vortexion with recording speeds of 7.5" and 15"--cost a fortune in 10.5" reels of magnetic recording tape!

He from the first loved opera and had the whole Ring cycle on LPs which were played on a highly professional stroboscopic turntable. He married a girl trained as an opera singer and then moved to Canada with her. The marriage didn't last with her blaming him for taking her to Canada where opportunities were too few. However, his view was emphatic, the best way to wreck any singer's voice was to train the singer to sing opera!

On the other hand of course, but there are so few like her which may perhaps prove the point, look at Callas. Look, on the male side, at Pavarotti. Carreras etc. Countering that there is still René Fleming. It may perhaps be that we need to separate 'operatic style' from 'singing opera'.

In 'passing on' I also saw someone remind us of Joan Sutherland.
Peter S.

[postscript]

fusilier23 said:

Eh, it kinda goes with the territory. More people read the paper than have musical training, and although most folks aren't QUITE as musically inept as, say, the Duke of Wellington (who famously said once that he knew two tunes, one was "God Save the King" and one wasn't), to most casual listeners anything with actual vocal tone and a few high notes qualifies as "opera," and any singer who steps out on stage with an orchestra is an opera singer. Most people also don't like to be corrected or when others "split hairs," so an explanation of the difference between an opera singer and a classical crossover singer is likely to be either misunderstood or dismissed by Joe Sixpack.

Hayley's best bet is just to keep on doing her thing. Those who care will eventually make the distinction, and as for those who don't, as long as they keep buying the CDs and tickets, who cares?

I love this, Fusilier. The Royal family (despite Charles supposedly playing the double bass) are renowned for being totally tuneless. I believe it was Edward the VIIIth as Prince of Wales once asked of the Head of State next to him, 'Whose tune is this, your anthem or ours? I'm standing for it anyway just in case its one of them.'

Peter S.

[martindn]

Wasn't "La Boheme" mentioned in Hayley's book? If she once appeared in that, then she HAS sung in an opera, which is more than you can say for that other "opera singer" Katherine Jenkins.

But Hayley it seems has always been prepared to have a go at anything. I am constantly amazed at how she seems to excel at whatever she tackles, from "opera" to pop, through folk and musical theatre, which given her background, is probably her genre if you feel you have to put her in one. Personally I don't, I simply enjoy hearing her voice.

The problem is the media seem to insist on categorising artists. While she is seen as an "opera singer", at least she might get some airplay on the classical music stations. The danger is that she will end up with nobody playing her music, and that would be a huge injustice against one of the best singers on the planet.

Perhaps in the end it will be her film and TV work that will do the trick. She has impressed some
very influential people, and this must eventually get her noticed. If she manages to become flavour of the month with the general public, the sky is the limit. And perhaps some pop fans might start to realise what they are missing. But I'm not convinced by that. Hayley speaks to the spirit, and an awful lot of people won't accept that they have one, preferring singers who prance about half naked or roll in the gutter full of drink or drugs. I'm sure Hayley would never stoop to anything like that, whatever it did for her popularity.

Martin

[milewalker]

martindn said:

Wasn't "La Boheme" mentioned in Hayley's book? If she once appeared in that, then she HAS sung in an opera, which is more than you can say for that other "opera singer" Katherine Jenkins.

But Hayley it seems has always been prepared to have a go at anything. I am constantly amazed at how she seems to excel at whatever she tackles, from "opera" to pop, through folk and musical theatre, which given her background, is probably her genre if you feel you have to put her in one. Personally I don't, I simply enjoy hearing her voice.

The problem is the media seem to insist on categorising artists. While she is seen as an "opera singer", at least she might get some airplay on the classical music stations. The danger is that she will end up with nobody playing her music, and that would be a huge injustice against one of the best singers on the planet.

Perhaps in the end it will be her film and TV work that will do the trick. She has impressed some
very influential people, and this must eventually get her noticed. If she manages to become flavour of the month with the general public, the sky is the limit. And perhaps some pop fans might start to realise what they are missing. But I'm not convinced by that. Hayley speaks to the spirit, and an awful lot of people won't accept that they have one, preferring singers who prance about half naked or roll in the gutter full of drink or drugs. I'm sure Hayley would never stoop to anything like that, whatever it did for her popularity.

Martin

Whoa Martin! I think I must have missed a couple of links in the chain here....how exactly did we get from Hayley not being an opera singer to her turning into Amy Winehouse?

Just to pick one example as a middle ground, Josh Groban has managed to sell 20 million records in roughly the same period of time that Hayley has sold a bit more than 3. He has done this without a scandal to his name and no particular media interest in him whatsoever.. Despite the fact that he is generally perceived as a classical crossover performer, his records can easily be found exactly where they belong - in the pop section of the stores like Target and Walmart which actually sell the bulk of the records here.

I am not saying that Hayley should try to be like Josh. I am merely pointing out that it doesnt have to be one kind of image or another - there is a whole lot of room between the extremes

Jon

PS Peter. The sine qua non of being an opera singer is what Rene Fleming once described as their being "rocket launchers". They are specifically trained to sing without amplification over an orchestra in large opera halls. This can be done, but it is too often at the expense of whatever kinder and gentler facets of their voice they once possessed. Size also matters, and so does sheer physical strength. Tenors are more palatable to the general population as singers than sopranos are in my opinion because they dont have to force their voice nearly as much to project like that. There are always exceptions as well - I personally discovered (also on the old CC forum) an honest to god operatic soprano by the name of Natalie Dessey - who (at times) is wonderful.

I think Hayley is somewhat slight of build for this particular art, however, I am not saying that it is impossible for Hayley to learn to sing opera. I am saying that about 99 percent of the time it does come at the loss of exactly the sort of vocal qualites we most admire in her at the present time.

[martindn]

milewalker said:

Whoa Martin! I think I must have missed a couple of links in the chain here....how exactly did we get from Hayley not being an opera singer to her turning into Amy Winehouse?

Jon,

I don't think we did. I was just pointing out that this is what it seems to take these days for an artist to get media publicity, and what a lot of people seem to expect from musicians.

I take your point about opera singing and its effect on the voice. Hayley's direction ATM is towards becoming a more spiritual singer. She doesn't seem to be very interested in opera as a career. Collaboration with people like James Horner, Karl Jenkins and Mike Oldfield will help her IMO.

Martin

[James]

postscript said:

In response to your starting this thread Steve, I think we need to remember her autobiography.

Dame Malvina told her not to take any notice and deliberately did not steer her in any direction other than 'to be true to herself; (page 62 hb).

I'm just reading "The World At Her Feet" and thought back to this thread when I read pp73 "One of the issues Hall"[Jim Hall - co producer of MGTY] "confronted early on was exactly what kind of music Hayley should be singing. He noted, as had Dame Malvina, that she would never be big enough to be an opera singer, Hayley was fine with that - she likes opera, but she doesn't love it the way she does other styles."

James

[postscript]

Your post 13 most apt, James. I've been meaning to get back to that book, so thanks for reminding us of that quote.

Peter S.