Hayley : diva tendencies ?

[Dave]

Well Steve,

I think we have known for years that when the need arises, Hayley can and does stand up for herself. We've known it ever since the Wuthering Heights incident became public. Most of the other things you mentioned are the job of her Management but I'm sure Hayley says her piece when it's needed. She isn't a pushover and there's no need for her to change if she doesn't want to, in my opinion. If there were problems on the Il Divo tour, these were largely sorted out after the first few weeks, as I recall - bar the overall format which was probably agreed contractually. I bet Hayley made sure this wasn't going to happen again - she is a quick learner.

Jon, yes there are contractual issues - or there were. We know that the contract was renegotiated after UK Odyssey version 1- the 'problem' that we all think exists may not in fact be as great as we sometimes fear. Decca, Hayley and her Management have, I believe, planned long term from the very start; I don't think this is common practice in the record industry for new artists. Hayley's present and future image may already have been agreed and it wouldn't surprise me if it's exactly what Hayley wants it to be.

In one of her NZ interviews this month, Hayley said, did she not, that the record company found out what she was going to record for Treasure when she had decided it. That does not sound like the attitude of someone who is going to be pushed around anytime soon. The journalist who described Hayley, underneath it all, as being 'as tough as old boots' may not have been too far off the mark...

Cheers, Dave

[milewalker]

Hi Dave

I hope you are right. Speaking strictly as an accountant though I dont see income matching those expenses. Admittedly I could be missing something, or something may not be being revealed clearly. However, apart from what Hayley says, there is also what she does I still see her still trying desparately to break the American market at the expense of her sales elsewhere - and this confuses me somewhat if American sales are now deemed unnecessary.

So I guess we will just have to wait and see...

Jon

[milewalker]

Due to an apparent brain cramp - and a rather confusing set of things about the way this thread displayed on my PC - I managed to delete the comment which Dave referred to above.
The comment follows - my apologies for the confusion.


Unfortunately Dave, I think I have to agree with Steve (in part)here.

The issue is not that I find anything wrong with Hayley being Hayley. Nor do I feel that success in the US per se is a necessary condition - except that I think that Decca may have made it necessary.

The difference between Hayley and Sissell is that Hayley was immediately marketed as an international star with a promotion budget and a contract reflecting that. I believe that the a priori assumption was that she would have significant success in America, and my fear is that her failure to do so is going to seriously compromise her future.

The record industry works on expectations. Success or failure is often largely a perception of the degree to which those expectations are met. There are cases where a singer has gone double platinum in the US and not met expectations. Sissel never had to face that sort of thing - and therefore when she sold 100,000 of her first release in the US she actually exceeded expectations.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, Hayley's future is to a large degree contingent on the degree to which she has contributed to Decca's bottom line at the point in which her contract is fulfilled. I suspect that this not only involves a profit on their part, but enough surplus for them to support the "serious" classical artists they are supposed to be promoting. To a degree, because of the way classical crossover is presented, I think that all artists of that genre have to bear a larger burden. Whether Hayley resigns with Decca or signs elsewhere, the perception of that success is going to directly affect the kind of contract she gets. Another consideration is whether or not she still owes Decca money, and how much debt there is.

Is this fair? Of course not. Life often isnt fair. Hayley's attitude towards fame speaks volumes about her personal integrity. However, the moment she signed that contract, it stopped being entirely about her. Decca may indeed have made a set of mistakes in the way they went about this - unfortunately the way those contracts work may make Hayley responsible for those mistakes.

Dave, if it is your contention that it shouldnt be about money, I would actually agree with that. Unfortunately, the real world is what it is and not what is "should" be.

Having said all of this, I would be very pleased if it turns out that I am wrong, and that Hayley can thrive without compromising her principles to my sense of reality. What I want most of all is simply for her to find the combination of things which makes her happiest - which is my definition of fandom.....

Jon

[stevemacdonald]

It seems the major part of Hayley's reputation centers around the perception of what she isn't (Diva-like, egotistical, rude, spoilt, wild) rather that what she actually is. This whole discussion of "diva tendencies" points up that fact.

I get the feeling Hayley is scrupulously avoiding even the merest hint of prima donna in her persona so as not to disappoint her fans. The comments here so far seem to indicate that some of us would indeed take her to task if she crossed the line in some noticeable way. That's gotta feel confining, I would think, like walking on egg shells. Again, we seem to like her for what she does not do.

If she's really desperate to make it in America, some brazenness is required. Trust me, she'll be taken much more seriously if she's not worried about whom she might offend.

[Stephany]

stevemacdonald said:

If she's really desperate to make it in America, some brazenness is required. Trust me, she'll be taken much more seriously if she's not worried about whom she might offend.

Probably, Steve. Yet, I don't see that happening.
She will always worry and care about everyone else, be it against the "success" of her career.

[milewalker]

There is an old adage here which comes to mind. It is generally not wise to put all of ones eggs in one basket - which is what I fear that Hayley is doing by taking this approach. The problem is one of growth vs loss. I will be very interested to see the sales levels of Treasure and the subsequent albums.

Under the present set of circumstances, I strongly suspect that her sales have already leveled, and that they will begin to fade if this isnt already happening. I keep coming back to the fact that the fall was so precipitous between Pure and Odyssey. I know that Dave believes this was due to the difference in promotion - which to some extent I actually agree with - but I still wonder if it was all due to that. How do the sales of Treasure/Celtic Treasure stack up to Odyssey at the same point (say six weeks out)?

There was one generally favorable review of Hayley - I believe from Houston a few months ago - which, despite the fact that the reviewer actually liked what she heard for the most part nevertheless speculated that she might fade away within five years. She felt that the crossover genre was in and of itself volatile.

I dont know if I would go that far - but it does seem to me to be too dependant on the approval of too few people for reasons which seem to only have the most indirect bearing on her singing.....

Jon

[grant]

I wasn't going to add anything to this thread, because as far as I'm concerned, Dave has already expressed my own feelings very clearly.

However, there seems to be a lot of "lets work out what Hayley needs to do to get this: to be successful here: to make more money there" WHY?

Who says Hayley wants all these things? She's already said that she doesn't want to be seen as a diva, and if Dame Kiri's appalling behaviour is anything to go by, thank goodness!!

I believe Hayley is absolutely where she wants to be. I truly believe that she loves her fans as much as they (we) love her and having fans as part of her 'work' is consequently very important to her.

If her career slows down, so what? Again she's said selling CD's isn't her main objective - singing is, and working for the good of the world.

I'm sure Hayley will make any changes of direction in her career that she feels necessary when and if the time is right. Maybe we should just let her get on with it and do what she wants with her life. She always seems happy, that, to me, is more important than many of the things people seem to wish for her.

Best wishes
Grant

[Stephany]

grant said:

If her career slows down, so what?

I'm sure Hayley will make any changes of direction in her career that she feels necessary when and if the time is right. Maybe we should just let her get on with it and do what she wants with her life. She always seems happy, that, to me, is more important than many of the things people seem to wish for her.

Best wishes
Grant

Exactly - I couldn't have said it better, Grant.
She's already very successful and I don't see why she would want to change to do better. I mean, look at her schedule, how could she do more than what she's already doing ?! Singing is what she wants, no matter if there's a small or big crowd.

[jons]

dave said:

Of course, International superstardom *could* happen at any time... one theme song in a blockbuster movie like Titanic would do it. But that sort of fame certainly isn't necessary and it may not even be sought by Hayley. I hope she stays true to herself.

Cheers, Dave

I have always had faith in Hayley, but seeing as I worry a lot, there has been times when I thought Hayley might change. So I sometimes psychoanalysis her.

If Hayley believes that trying to get enough sleep and drinking water are diva tendencies, then your line Dave - "I hope she stays true to herself" is not necessary - If thats Hayley's mindset, there is no need to worry about her changing. It means that Hayley is always concerned about the little things. Its made me really happy reading that.

[Richard]

Hello folks!

I wasn't going to join in this discussion either, but I must make the comment that I don't believe Hayley will ever make any drastic changes in her personality or behaviour, whether people expect her to or not. I've known her for quite a while now, and she is clearly very happy with herself and the image she conveys to her fans and the media in general. Her comments in many recent interviews confirm this. If Hayley made any unnatural changes in her persona with the intention of becoming more famous she would upset herself most of all, and I can't see her doing that.

Best Wishes,

Richard

[grant]

jons said:

[It means that Hayley is always concerned about the little things. Its made me really happy reading that.

Me too Jon!

I think the old adage "Look after the pennies etc....." works here too.

If Hayley looks after the small things like sleep and her constant companion bottle of water, then she will always be ready to take on the bigger things when they present themselves.

Best wishes
Grant

[toronado]

Yeah, Hayley sounds more like a professional athlete (although I guess some of them can probably be divas too, heh) than a diva!

[stevemacdonald]

richnorri said:

... If Hayley made any unnatural changes in her persona with the intention of becoming more famous she would upset herself most of all, and I can't see her doing that.

I fully agree with this, Richard. It would be artificial if she started "strutting her stuff" the way so many divas do and adopted an attitude of entitlement disproportional to her value.

However what I'm suggesting is that it's just as unnatural to for her to be so hemmed in by fan expectations. I see this as thwarting further success when it predisposes her to remain cooperative in situations that clearly compromise her. There are many small things I've observed along the way that would take too much space to list, but which show her as good-naturedly tolerating what many true divas would be up in arms about. I think her tolerance is unnaturally high for these minor compromises.

One fine day there will be a Hayley who claims her rightful place among the elite singers of the world. Her venues will be large and comfortable. Her publicity machine will be in all the correct places to generate buzz. Her songs will start getting the airplay they deserve. The songs presented for her to sing will have more market research embedded so they'll have a stronger chance of hitting a wider audience. Someday her name will be in lights on the Vegas Strip. Ah, I can dream...

[postscript]

stevemacdonald said:

One fine day there will be a Hayley who claims her rightful place among the elite singers of the world. Her venues will be large and comfortable. Her publicity machine will be in all the correct places to generate buzz. Her songs will start getting the airplay they deserve. The songs presented for her to sing will have more market research embedded so they'll have more of a chance of hitting a wider audience. Someday her name will be in lights on the Vegas Strip. Ah, I can dream...

And that will be the time few of us if any will be able to get close to her. Not because she cuts herself off but because it will be logistically impossible for her to handle it. That is why we make hay with her while that lesser sun shines.

Peter S.

[jons]

postscript said:

stevemacdonald said:

One fine day there will be a Hayley who claims her rightful place among the elite singers of the world. Her venues will be large and comfortable. Her publicity machine will be in all the correct places to generate buzz. Her songs will start getting the airplay they deserve. The songs presented for her to sing will have more market research embedded so they'll have more of a chance of hitting a wider audience. Someday her name will be in lights on the Vegas Strip. Ah, I can dream...

And that will be the time few of us if any will be able to get close to her. Not because she cuts herself off but because it will be logistically impossible for her to handle it. That is why we make hay with her while that lesser sun shines.

Peter S.

Happy Birthday Peter!

I agree! I don't want to see Hayley worked into the ground. I want her to get more sleep! I don't want the paparazzi following her around. I don't want to see her turn into a emotional hardcase like Avril Lavigne.
But its not going to happen, the truth is in what she said in the interview.