|
|
Post by postscript on May 4, 2007 8:56:04 GMT
Dear Jon.
In reply to post #24, I think we have to be very careful in jumping to conclusions and making wide-ranging pronouncements.
At HWI we have a very privileged position. Yes, there is the official site as well. I don't visit it often since I have difficulty getting my password cleared, so cannot actively participate and I have little enough time for this site anyway,
Unlike the official site, this site is blessed with a very small but very dedicated and very flexible band of extraordinarily capable people. This means we have not only intensive insights into the Hayley world from diverse direct, personal experiences, but an extraordinary appetite and awareness of Hayley in the wider world. This site presents a greater range of Hayley material and connections than the official site, much improved though it has been recently, for which many congratulations to its admin and technical staff.
This provides us with an extraordinary wealth of information and I think we all need (and this is a question mark for others to chip in their ha'ppence) to try and maintain that in-depth and universal perspective. In a way, in that description of this site, I perhaps have described Hayley: intense in detail yet globally orientated. So let's take the point you make in the global context.
What is man's biological proclivity? Arguably a nut and fruit gather. Then the hunting aspect came in. In our wider knowledge when there is much of our traditional thinking we are questioning due to being better informed, is eating animals ethical? The answer is that the world at large is confused and ambivalent. Until someone turns this into a major question, which means addressing the whole economic structure and life-sustaining resource of the whole world, the answer is entirely academic and very personal.
in our intensive knowledge, coupled with our wider-ranging knowledge on this site, the diverse sources from which we learn about Hayley come from bites of information without the context from which the detail has been gleaned.
It is therefore totally wrong to grab upon a moment and declare that moment representative of the whole or a wider context than that originally sourced.
I am sure there are times when Hayley replies to a specific from which it would be wrong to draw a general principle. Conversely, it would be wrong to interpret a general principle and to expect that to define every detail.
You may well have strong views on certain aspects (I know I have and I am not usually reticent in expressing them (except here, where I do try and bite my tongue a little out of respect for what this community is about)) and we likewise respect those views in you. Likewise, Hayley too has strong views. The degree to which she expresses them, or 'lets them be known' is dependent upon their nature, relevance, and considerations for professional diplomacy.
Consequently, there may appear to be inconsistencies. Inconsistencies are not falsehoods, We simply do not know the wider picture and context. You said yourself she was a pragmatist. Her health must come first and many of us on this site have expressed our concern about her health in the way she demands so much of her constitution. If, therefore, her body needs certain sustenance from which the best resource is to breech an ideal, then she will pragmatically address the issue, while doubtless finding other ways to overcome her need if she can. Hayley will not be the first vegetarian to be told by health professionals that diet cannot give her body all that it needs.
Let us take the debate to this extreme. There are certain people of a religious persuasion who will not accept blood transfusions-they would rather die (and often do as a consequence of being true to their beliefs). It is all a matter of balancing perspectives, A balance, only the individual can make for themselves and is not for us to reason why, let alone condemn.
Peter S.
|
|
|
|
Post by grant on May 4, 2007 9:35:48 GMT
I must say I was a little surprised to hear that Hayley had begun eating "some meat" I was also a little relieved.
I am not a vegetarian and accept that I don't fully understand the concept. I eat vegetarian dishes and enjoy them, but I don't think I could live on them. Also I don't know the background as to why Hayley initially decided to go down the pesca-vegetarian route.
Whatever the reason, health, particularly for Hayley to use Peter's words "for what she demands of her constitution" is something she has to pay particular attention to. I'm sure she would see her responsibility to her audiences - maintaining her ability to perform at the high standard she demands of herself - as more important than her personal values in relation to her diet.
Hayley will always be true to herself, but how many of us have set out on a path and found that a slight change in direction may be necessary? It happens.
There are several people in my circle of friends that wouldn't think twice about ordering a roast beef dinner or lamb chops, even chicken, but duck or rabbit? Not on your life.
Best wishes
Grant
|
|
|
|
Post by milewalker on May 4, 2007 15:12:21 GMT
I was intentionally trying to be somewhat tongue in cheek in my earlier response, so I appreciate the more serious reponses provided by Peter and Grant.....
The bottom line is that - as Peter said - there is no way we can really know the entire context, or what was going through her mind when she gave that particular response to that question.
But even if we disregard that consideration, it is still a fact that reasonable people do change their minds. Often the reason for this is simply that the context in which we made our original decision has changed. It is often said that experience is the best teacher - and there is something to that. Life educates us all, if we let it.
I would extend one cautionary note though. Based on what I am seeing here, there are a number of us who seem to like Hayley because we are very comfortable with the set of values she projects. She is probably going to change her mind about other things as well over the passing of time - I think most of us do. I am now over 50 years old, and despite the fact that I never made any kind of concious revolutionary change in my persona, I am no doubt quite different now than I was when I was 20. The accretion of smaller changes over the course of time can be quite significant.
It is much easier for us to laud Hayley for "staying true to herself" when we like virtually everything about that self. I respect Jon S position even though I dont agree. His radar is just more sensitive than most.
Jon
|
|
|
|
Post by stevemacdonald on May 4, 2007 15:24:42 GMT
I must say I was a little surprised to hear that Hayley had begun eating "some meat"; I was also a little relieved. ... Interesting. Hayley's carnivorous side actually goes back a ways. If anyone recalls, she was seen preparing a chicken and broccoli dish on some TV show a few years ago alongside Katherine Jenkins and Ainsley Harriott. |
|
|
|
Post by grant on May 4, 2007 17:46:32 GMT
You are quite right Jon, we are comfortable with her values and generally jump to her defence when those values are challenged.
But, as you say, we all change over time, some with big leaps and bounds, others in much smaller steps. For most, those changes are for the better as we learn our way in life.
Hopefully, Hayley will not present us with too many surprises that are hard to handle. At the end of the day, they are Hayley's decisions and Hayley's life and we have to accept that.
There will (hopefully) always be the HWI Shoulder to cry on, should it be needed.
Best wishes
Grant
|
|
|
|
Post by jons on May 7, 2007 13:30:41 GMT
I respect Jon S position even though I dont agree. His radar is just more sensitive than most. Jon This is true, I am. Most of the time when I read an interview from Hayley there’s something that sets me off. Although I decided to take what Hayley says with a pinch of salt. In one interview she was asked if she smoked and replied she didn’t because its “bad for my voice.”. Does that mean if she decided to stop singing she would try smoking? A response to why one should not smoke is: “Because its bad for your health.” But of course that’s what Hayley was thinking really wasn’t she? I put it into my mind that Hayley was thinking at the time of the interview: “Kids will be reading this. If I just say that smoking is bad for your health they might not listen because that doesn’t seem enough to put them off, but if I say its bad for your voice and seeing has they would want to be budding pop-stars then I could say that its bad for your voice and that should stop them.” A bit of forward thinking. She probably wasn't thinking that, but who knows? When you decide something like being a veggie when your just a kid and then change your mind that’s quite common, but if you decide all of a sudden at a mature age of 18 to eat (some) meat then I don’t understand. I eat meat but if there was another way to get it (and there may be in the future) that would make me happy. Its not just the killing of animals that would stop, but the possibility of diseases, and animals suffering in cramped slaughter houses while they wait to be slaughtered. That is what I’m hoping Hayley is thinking: “Its ok but if and when synthetic meat comes along I will welcome it”, and not “I don’t like the idea of eating animals but I need to get my voice as clear as possible so, whatever!” I’m not angry with Hayley, in fact I’m probably taking this too seriously, and I seem to know it. However I see how well mannered Hayley is in interviews and from peoples anecdotes. At the music therapy session she looked as if she was generally enjoying herself. Everything points to Hayley being the wonderful person she is. She must have a reason for changing her mind just like that? If Hayley was putting on a show it wouldn’t make me angry but very upset because she would be someone you couldn’t trust anymore. But its all conspiracy theories and I still have faith in Hayley. However, it would be nice to know what she was thinking there, she seemed to laugh as if it was not important to have a strong feeling about something and then just change it all of a sudden. Eric understood what I meant - Its not about Hayley eating meat, it was about a quick decision change. As Peter said a 'strong view' apparently not so strong any more. I'm both clear-minded and pretty confused at the moment so I apologise. |
|
Dave
Administrator
HWI Admin
Posts: 7,700
|
Post by Dave on May 7, 2007 14:43:49 GMT
I respect Jon S position even though I dont agree. His radar is just more sensitive than most. Jon When you decide something like being a veggie when your just a kid and then change your mind that’s quite common, but if you decide all of a sudden at a mature age of 18 to eat (some) meat then I don’t understand. Hi Jon, I think young people (not just 'kids') change their minds about important issues all the time and a 20 years old person is still a young person. Think "University Student" and how often students with extreme right or left wing views moderate or change them when they get well into their 20s or 30s. It's all part of the never-ending learning process and is quite normal. But the changes of mind do not usually occur suddenly, it is a gradual process often lasting several years. One of my daughter's views on vegetarianism etc. changed gradually over several years, almost in parallel to Hayley's. Yes, I suddenly noticed the change one day... but it had been a gradual process and this is almost certainly the case with Hayley. I think young people are inclined initially to see many important aspects of life as black or white but as they get older and learn more about the World they come to realise that in reality, it is mostly shades of grey... with compelling arguments on both sides of each case. There is plenty of room for perfectly reasonable and honourable people to change their views on many important ssues, of which meat eating is one. My attitude is that Hayley (and my daughter) were perfectly entitled to hold the views they then had - and indeed, to change their minds as they seem to have done. I find that it isn't helpful to delve too deeply into the reasons for it; I tend to just accept that the balance of pros and cons in their mind has shifted, as they learned more about the subject. Cheers, Grandad err, Dave  |
|
|
|
Post by jons on May 7, 2007 15:31:53 GMT
Hi Dave,
I think people misunderstand. If Hayley has changed her mind over a period of time about eating meat that is perfectly normal, I understand that. The worry I had was that Hayley had changed her mind on the spot, indicating that Hayley's status as a vegetarian was just an act, part of a image created to make Hayley look better then she is. I know that sounds ridiculous, but Hayley means so much I'm expecting another Charlotte Church incident to happen. But it can't can it? Hayley went to Africa to help, she is a philanthropist, evidence abounds that she always puts peoples feelings first. So why should I be worried about these things? Because you can't alway help the way your brain works. I know this is silly but I can't stop myself.
So this was nothing to do with Hayley's views but the small chance that things are not that perfect.
According to my faith in Hayley, if she read this she wouldn't be angry or anything, she would be interested in peoples thought patterns. She certainly wouldn't dismiss anybody. That goes against my worries, but I have difficulty shaking those things off. I wish I could just be like you lot.
|
|
Dave
Administrator
HWI Admin
Posts: 7,700
|
Post by Dave on May 7, 2007 15:46:33 GMT
Hi Dave, I think people misunderstand. If Hayley has changed her mind over a period of time about eating meat that is perfectly normal, I understand that. The worry I had was that Hayley had changed her mind on the spot, indicating that Hayley's status as a vegetarian was just an act, part of a image created to make Hayley look better then she is. Hi Jon, Yes I understood what your concern was, I was trying to allay your fears about it. I think it's simply the case that Hayley was a vegetarian (as my daughter was at that time) but now, she has (they have) different views about it. I don't think it was an image thing invented by Hayley or her publicists, I vaguely recall reading somewhere (years ago) that Hayley's mum is a long standing vegetarian, vegan (or similar) so that may be how Hayley came to be one... but now, she is her own person, which is good I think.. Cheers, Dave |
|
|
|
Post by jons on May 7, 2007 15:59:49 GMT
Yes, I'm sorry everyone for getting a bit worked up about it. I suppose it makes everything a bit more interesting. Yes Dave,I think I remember reading about Hayley's mum being a vegetarian. I'm wondering if Hayley mentioned "Cute, fluffy, animal" when she was little, that would explain it - Hayley changed her mind earlier, but didn't do anything about it until later.
|
|
|
|
Post by stevemacdonald on May 7, 2007 18:04:20 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by postscript on May 8, 2007 8:22:49 GMT
May I suggest, Jon, there is a certain subjectivity of interpretation in your reactions. One thing about Hayley we should rememvber, while this is an emotional girl in the sense of her empathy for mood and intuition in her singing, this is a very objectively orientated lady. To be objective is to balance the validity of arguments in context, it does not imply any cynical traits of itself.
Peter S.
|
|
|
|
Post by postscript on May 8, 2007 8:38:02 GMT
Hi Dave, I think people misunderstand. If Hayley has changed her mind over a period of time about eating meat that is perfectly normal, I understand that. The worry I had was that Hayley had changed her mind on the spot, indicating that Hayley's status as a vegetarian was just an act, part of a image created to make Hayley look better then she is. Hi Jon, Yes I understood what your concern was, I was trying to allay your fears about it. I think it's simply the case that Hayley was a vegetarian (as my daughter was at that time) but now, she has (they have) different views about it. I don't think it was an image thing invented by Hayley or her publicists, I vaguely recall reading somewhere (years ago) that Hayley's mum is a long standing vegetarian, vegan (or similar) so that may be how Hayley came to be one... but now, she is her own person, which is good I think.. Cheers, Dave I can confirm that view, Dave. I was chatting to Jill one time. We were discussing ways of generally promoting Hayley in the wider world and I made the suggestion that Hayley should consider producing a book (or acting as 'editorial adviser' to others in her name) of producing a book about healthy eating and why she does the things she does. Jill's response was, 'well all her eating ixdeas she gets from me'! So your point is valid, Dave. Hayley may be breaking out of her mother's 'mould' and working things out for herself. On the other hand, there has always been concern about a balance of intake and if a diet requires supplementary 'vitamins', is the basic diet a good one? A criticism (informed or otherwise) that is generally made by most meat eaters towards vegetarians. It would be wrong to expose the detail, it was a private incidental chit-chat while waiting for Hayley's signing line to clear, I don't think its breaking the privlege of trust those relaxed chit-chats we used to have with Jil, when she was touring with Hayley, to say that Jill was determined that (and this is my phrasing for pure amusement value for our benefit here) 'As soon as I get her home she's having a thorough health check'! Peter S. |
|
|
|
Post by jons on May 8, 2007 14:09:06 GMT
May I suggest, Jon, there is a certain subjectivity of interpretation in your reactions. One thing about Hayley we should remember, Peter S. Yes and I knew that from the start. My reaction was a mix of fear and the fact that Hayley might be to good to be true. I still can't get over what Hayley said about her diva's tendencies: Having to sleep and drink water? That is a wonderful comment Hayley made. Its the type of comment that proves that Hayley doesn't have a bad bone in a body, because if thats her idea of diva tendencies, she has no concept of grumpiness or tantrums or anything. That is my interpretation of that comment she made and hopefully its spot on. But you have to give some people a bit of leeway for there comments due to one reason or another. For that brief moment I was worried thats all and I shouldn't of been. Thats why I have to say again, there is nothing wrong with any of Hayley's decisions. |
|
|
|
Post by milewalker on May 8, 2007 14:20:44 GMT
Jon S
I would merely raise one caution here. Hayley is human. The higher her star rises, the more media exposure she will get, and the greater the chance that someday she might say something that she wishes later that she hadnt.
Someday she is going to be doing a nine o clock interview on short sleep after working 12 days in a row, with an interviewer who she isnt getting along with - and the published results might be different than those we have seen.
|
|
