Hayley and crossover artists mocked by the purists

[Andrew]

Hi all,

Indeed this is a very interesting article. In my opinion classical music has to be interactive and "tangible" to prevent it from becoming stagnant and to encourage people of all ages to enjoy it and embrace it. Classical crossover artists such as Hayley have breathed new life into classical music and events such as the "ClassicaLive" of March 2005 are definitely the way forward for keeping classical music "fresh"! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

Andrew

[Dave]

milewalker said:

In terms of market realitiy Hayley is squeezed on both sides. She doesnt really have a traditional "classical" voice which means that she wont be accepted by that community - and doesnt have the attributes which compose a traditional pop singer either.

Hayley has the vocal attributes which comprise a singer of traditional (folk) music... from which a lot of classical music is derived. They were originally written for voice or voice and simple 'traditional' instrumental backing and it's why, I think, so many of her songs are like that. They suit her voice and style and I think it's the way she will continue. She doesn't need to take either of the routes that you mention - classical (I assume you mean operatic?) or pop.

It's no accident that Hayley herself is reported to have said recently that if she could sing only Classical, Pop or Folk, that she would unhesitatingly choose folk. If the mass audiences are not there for it (let's say classical-folk), so be it... she does well enough in several Countries already to give her a long and worthwhile career. I think Hayley has now got the mix exactly right for her voice and it certainly falls under the ever broadening umbrella of classical crossover music... better than faux-opera in my opinion. But both can help to introduce some people to classical music and that can't be bad.

Cheers, Dave

[toronado]

jons said:

Do you think Katherine Jenkins 'Everything I Do' sounds more romantic? Tosh!

I actually do prefer her version to Bryan Adams', but I don't think it has anything to do with the language she sings it in. I think I would prefer to hear her sing it in English. I like Bryan Adams too, but for some reason I just prefer Katherine's. I have noticed I do have a tendancy to prefer female singers slightly, so that might account for it.

[stevemacdonald]

andrew said:

... Classical crossover artists such as Hayley have breathed new life into classical music and events such as the "ClassicaLive" of March 2005 are definitely the way forward for keeping classical music "fresh" i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

Andrew, I think the whole idea that crossover artists keep classical music fresh is oversold. Classical music has no sell-by date and its traditional merits as a glorious art form are self-evident.

All that crossover performers have done is create a spin-off line that in no way influences the course of classical music other than helping to underwrite it. Indeed, revenues from crossover nicely prop up Decca and Sony Classical so they can continue to produce more strictly classical fare.

I wish the crossover world would stop trying to have it both ways by making a clear conceptual departure from classical and then saying they are making it fresher and more accessible. They are merely setting up a new genre that presently draws as much from pop, folk, world, and soft rock as it does from Bach, Beethoven and Brahms.

[Andrew]

stevemacdonald said:

andrew said:

... Classical crossover artists such as Hayley have breathed new life into classical music and events such as the "ClassicaLive" of March 2005 are definitely the way forward for keeping classical music "fresh" i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

Andrew, I think the whole idea that crossover artists keep classical music fresh is oversold. Classical music has no sell-by date and its traditional merits as a glorious art form are self-evident.

All that crossover performers have done is create a spin-off line that in no way influences the course of classical music other than helping to underwrite it. Indeed, revenues from crossover nicely prop up Decca and Sony Classical so they can continue to produce more strictly classical fare.

I wish the crossover world would stop trying to have it both ways by making a clear conceptual departure from classical and then saying they are making it fresher and more accessible. They are merely setting up a new genre that presently draws as much from pop, folk, world, and soft rock as it does from Bach, Beethoven and Brahms.

Hello Steve,

I respect your opinion here and you are quite entitled to having that. I would imagine however that most classical crossover artists already appreciate that classical music has no "sell-by date" and the traditional merits associated with it as a "glorious art form". Many classical crossover artists have taken an active role and gone out of their way to promote classical music as a whole to a new generation because they want to encourage others to love it too! How about taking a look at the following newspaper article just for an example? here

Regards

Andrew

[roger]

The thing I am not comfortable with is the fact they call it "Classical Crossover". For me, that is a misnomer and should be simply "Crossover". My understanding of this type of music is that it crosses over from either classical, folk, pop or whatever, in the direction of one or more of the others. It is a new genre in its own right whose origins lie in all the others and therefore incorporate elements of all of them.

Having said that, I do believe it has introduced a lot of people to the pure classical repertoire. That is less true of pop, for example, which had a greater following in the first place.

Roger

[milewalker]

Hi Steve,

IMHO they want it both ways because they are hoping to get as many sales as possible from the "flexible" ends of both the worlds of classical and pop.

This being said, I couldnt agree more. Also, I have never seen a bridge yet which doesnt allow traffic to travel both ways. If it actually does lead some people who like pop music to listen to classical, shouldnt the reverse be true as well? Edit - Roger has a point above

One problem with a discussion like this is that the concepts are so nebulous. If Hayley reaches 1 on the UK classical charts and 9 on the pop charts, doesnt this imply that she is both rather than neither? Pop music does actually imply a kind of music, but more often than not the term isnt actually used that way. Classical music has a very rigid and narrow definition which almost no one uses. (When I used the word above Dave, I meant sacred or traditional or chamber or operatic music which is either at least 75 years old, or is written in a fashion to emulate that).

I suspect that the term "folk music" is even more nebulous - I have at any rate heard prestigious music commentators use the term to refer to both Enya and Avril Lavigne - ie Hayley may have known what she meant by that statement - but I sure dont.

All music is folk music. I aint never heard a horse sing a song - Louis Armstrong

Jon

[jons]

toronado said:

jons said:

Do you think Katherine Jenkins 'Everything I Do' sounds more romantic? Tosh!

I actually do prefer her version to Bryan Adams', but I don't think it has anything to do with the language she sings it in. I think I would prefer to hear her sing it in English. I like Bryan Adams too, but for some reason I just prefer Katherine's. I have noticed I do have a tendancy to prefer female singers slightly, so that might account for it.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone by using the word 'Tosh' I do like Katherine Jenkins, but when Bryan sings the song, its seems 'real' and Katherine's version sounds a bit boring to me. But thats me, I'm glad you enjoy Katherine's version Tornado. Everybody seems to want to complicate things with technical matters, your response is a good response - "you have a tendency to prefer female singers". To me thats what music is all about - what you hear and what you feel, its not all about thinking in a form of crunching numbers - emotions play a part in what you hear.

I said that to hide the fact that I haven't the faintest idea what these guys are going on about!

[toronado]

That's pretty much how I feel Jon. I try not to get caught up in labeling genres all that much, there's always someone out there who is going to be more of a stickler. I mean if we're being technical classical refers to a very specific time period and style of music, then you have the other styles like baroque, and romantic, modern, ancient, and all of that. You could argue that the term classical itself is grossly overused today. I had a professor who referred to those collective genres as "art music." Now that's what I call elitist, because it seems to imply that any other kind of music isn't art. I think we should start our own genre of music, and call it "gorgeous music" and we'll put Hayley right at the top of the charts and let her be our poster child.

[jons]

toronado said:

I think we should start our own genre of music, and call it "gorgeous music" and we'll put Hayley right at the top of the charts and let her be our poster child.

I like that!

Speaking of Kathrine Jenkins though is interesting. As I said I'm not keen on some of the songs she sings but I do like her voice; not as much as some other singers though. My radar's going! I think it might be a bit off-topic but recently I have discovered someone called Natasha Marsh. She is pretty amazing, with a great sounding high register (there's the technical bits again!) but some of the songs she sings are classical in the sense of the time period and style as you mentioned, with some more modern pieces thrown in and I don't really like some of them, so its a case of listening to the voice and trying to enjoy that even if the song is a bit monotonous. And it works to a certain extent, theres no denying the talent either. Her voice is truly romantic which works well on those songs, whether there boring or not - it doesn't seem forced. So is Natasha crossover?

[toronado]

Her CD might be a "crossover" but I believe she focuses on opera performances. I can't say for certain though. I know her version of "Libiamo ne' lieti calici" with Alfie Boe on YouTube is one of my favorite versions of that song.

[jons]

Opera is a classical sub-genre right? When I think of opera I see 'Tosca' and things like that. I didn't even recognise Natasha as opera which shows what I know. That must be why I find some of the songs a bit boring. I know Katherine is a mezzo- soprano isn't she and that type of voice is like opera? I'm confused with all these terms!

[toronado]

Well, Katherine is a mezzo-soprano, Natasha is a soprano, Hayley is also a soprano. That's just talking about their vocal range, not necessarily what they decide to sing.

[milewalker]

Hi Toronado and JonS

This is likely off-topic, but JonS did raise the question.....

The term "soprano" as well as the other terms in question are merely descriptions of vocal range and actually have nothing at all to do with opera or classical music per se. For example, Mariah Carey is (or at least was) a soprano - and actually quite a good one for the type of music she sings.

When this is applied to classical music, and opera in particular, another consideration is the power which can be employed. Generally a singer may well be able to hit a wide range of notes, but will be more powerful over a sub-range within that. Notably in opera, the expectation is that the singer can be audible without amplification over an orchestra within that sub-range - and different roles are written with specific types of voices in mind. This is clearly of less importance for people who are primarily concert singers and recording artists, because amplification is used.

A mezzo-soprano has a range about a quarter to a third octave lower than a soprano, but higher than that of a contralto. Like in most things, Hayley is actually a bit hard to classify. Toronado is correct that her overal range makes her a soprano - but the range where she has most power would probably make her more comfortable as a mezzo.

Media depictions of all of this are really quite confusing - mostly because they are written by people who quite frankly dont know what they are talking about. Katherine Jenkins is certainly "operatic" at times, but clearly not an "opera singer" at this point for the very obvious reason that she has never performed in an opera.

Jon

PS - the communication of emotion in a singer is a two way street. There is a singer and a listener, both of whom must be on the same wavelength for this to occur. There are vocal techniques which are commonly used to aid this - but this only means that they have been shown to produce the desired effect over a wider range of listeners,