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Post by Elliot Kane on Nov 29, 2011 2:55:49 GMT
Breaking The StatesIt has long been a matter of fascination to me how very different the US market is to the other major world markets in music. While other nations are fairly obvious about their fads and general attitudes, it often seems that the US is the rock upon which so many bands and artists who are huge names in the rest of the world founder and break. Me being me, I naturally wanted to understand this phenomenon. At long last, I think I finally have enough of an idea to have a decent stab at an answer. Image is always important to an artist and can boost their success levels incredibly, but in most of the world the music is far more important. In the States, the music helps, but image seems to be the single most important factor. Or, perhaps more importantly, consistency of image. A Pop star who dresses and acts in a way the US audience expects from a Rock star sends them a mixed message. It doesn't fit the narrative. So the audience is confused, doesn't know what to make of it, and is not sure whether or not they are the 'intended' audience. Teenagers are expected to have stepped straight out of an Archie comic, and behave like good All-American Teens, because that is what teens are supposed to be like. Unless they have managed to get themselves into the 'Rebel' narrative, in which case they'd better not be doing Pop. An American audience does not only want music, they want a story. They want to know the 'characters'. They want to know who are supposed to be the role models, what market someone is aiming at and who their fans are expected to be. They want to know where they fit into the story. This is where non-American artists always slip up. Growing up with all the normal expectations of the US market, Americans don't think about it. They just naturally fit themselves into the narrative. They know how to build the story, because they have grown up with the story. They know that being seen as an archetype will help Americans know what to expect and they know how to live within those archetypes, at least in public. Non-American artists do not understand that it's not just the music they are selling; it's the story, the dream. So they rarely fit the archetypes, except by accident. So they fail, and they wonder why. *** Wrote this a while ago, then completely forget I didn't put it on here! As it seems to be a subject of perennial interest here, I hope you all like the article, whether or not you actually agree with me  *** Note for mods: I'm not sure if this belongs here or in 'Other Music', but this was my best guess
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Post by tireman on Nov 30, 2011 12:48:23 GMT
Breaking The StatesIt has long been a matter of fascination to me how very different the US market is to the other major world markets in music. While other nations are fairly obvious about their fads and general attitudes, it often seems that the US is the rock upon which so many bands and artists who are huge names in the rest of the world founder and break. Me being me, I naturally wanted to understand this phenomenon. At long last, I think I finally have enough of an idea to have a decent stab at an answer. Image is always important to an artist and can boost their success levels incredibly, but in most of the world the music is far more important. In the States, the music helps, but image seems to be the single most important factor. Or, perhaps more importantly, consistency of image. A Pop star who dresses and acts in a way the US audience expects from a Rock star sends them a mixed message. It doesn't fit the narrative. So the audience is confused, doesn't know what to make of it, and is not sure whether or not they are the 'intended' audience. Teenagers are expected to have stepped straight out of an Archie comic, and behave like good All-American Teens, because that is what teens are supposed to be like. Unless they have managed to get themselves into the 'Rebel' narrative, in which case they'd better not be doing Pop. An American audience does not only want music, they want a story. They want to know the 'characters'. They want to know who are supposed to be the role models, what market someone is aiming at and who their fans are expected to be. They want to know where they fit into the story. This is where non-American artists always slip up. Growing up with all the normal expectations of the US market, Americans don't think about it. They just naturally fit themselves into the narrative. They know how to build the story, because they have grown up with the story. They know that being seen as an archetype will help Americans know what to expect and they know how to live within those archetypes, at least in public. Non-American artists do not understand that it's not just the music they are selling; it's the story, the dream. So they rarely fit the archetypes, except by accident. So they fail, and they wonder why. *** Wrote this a while ago, then completely forget I didn't put it on here! As it seems to be a subject of perennial interest here, I hope you all like the article, whether or not you actually agree with me *** Note for mods: I'm not sure if this belongs here or in 'Other Music', but this was my best guess Elliot I don't mean to criticize your post I just want to understand it. In light of the fact that so many artists have made it big in the States I don't understand your thesis. Many artists fail anywhere. Could you be more specific with the artists that failed. I think the majority of U S musical tastes do differ greatly from some other parts of the world. Classical Crossover artists in the U S are mostly European artists. I don't know if I've interpreted your thesis correctly so could you just expand it a bit more with some specificity. Larry. |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Dec 1, 2011 0:58:02 GMT
Robbie Williams would probably be the best recent example. Massive star everywhere else in the world, but - and this may obviously be newspaper gossip with no substance - he apparently confuses American audiences because they aren't sure what box to put him in. Then there was Craig David who was told by a US radio host (Never identified) to lose his main musician if he wanted to crack the states because "You're black, he's white, and that confuses American audiences. They don't know which market you are aiming at." Craig was outraged, for obvious reasons. But again, we're talking neat boxes. I read that kind of thing time and again. Acts that are hugely successful in much of the world founder in the states. It's not that US musical tastes are THAT different to the rest of the world (Except for Country, granted  ), as is proven by the fact that most (non-Country) major US artists are also known worldwide. Sure, British acts have a fair record for also being successful in America - one only has to look at the Billboard charts right now to see that! But some of the failures are more than a bit surprising. So I looked for some kind of cultural difference that could explain what makes it big and what doesn't. Sure, there are always going to be regional taste differences. That's inevitable. But I think there's a bit more to it in the US. A concentration on things not directly related to the music or even the image that the rest of the world doesn't seem to have. These are just my thoughts on what the difference might be. (I'm not going to point to Hayley as an example, BTW, because I'm not sure it's true. She does seem to have a fair fanbase in the US - it's just spread out quite widely) **I'd also like to stress, BTW, that this topic is in no way intended to be an attack on America or Americans. I am interested in understanding a cultural difference and that is all** |
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Post by martindn on Dec 1, 2011 22:06:29 GMT
Hi Elliot,
There are perhaps also clues by looking at individuals artists who are popular in both the rest of the world and USA. Sometimes, their biggest successes are different. For example, Pink Floyd, whose best selling album worldwide was "Dark Side of the Moon", but in the USA, "The Wall" did better.
You might equally ask the same question about the difference between the popular Amercan artists who make it in the UK, and those who don't. Perhaps Libby's favourite, Josh Groban comes into that category. Or Tom Petty comes to mind.
It is interesting that the Rolling Stones only took off in the states after they stopped mimicing American R & B and started doing more original stuff, from about 1971 on. So part of it seems to be originality, and perhaps having a consistent image.
Perhaps the problem that Hayley would have is as you suggest, she doesn't fit into any one defined category of music that is popular in the USA. So you wonder which radio stations would play her stuff. There may be some that might play some of it, but as an artist she doesn't fit wholly into a single genre, so probably won't be adopted by music stations that like to concentrate on particular types of music. Even in the UK, only Classic FM plays her (occasionally), and carefully chooses the "classical" tracks. And because she is seen as a "classical" artist, the other stations don't play her at all.
The large number of US fans that Hayley seems to have despite that makes me optimistic that she could be successful there. But to become well known she would need to be adopted by a mainstream media outlet, and it is hard to see one that would do it. I believe that home-grown Eva Cassidy had the same problem. She is an American singer who is perhaps better known in the UK than in her native country, and again one who like Hayley, liked to cross boundaries.
Martin D
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Post by Elliot Kane on Dec 2, 2011 9:24:48 GMT
A huge amount of PR in the US does get done by the radio shows if I understand correctly, Martin, and those do seem to target particular demographics - which, yes, would likely make Hayley and other experimental artists a hard sell.
It's by no means always true, but Rock tends to do better in the UK, which is why a number of American Rock artists tend to launch their careers in Britain - they are more likely to get a good general reception. Rock and Lana Del Rey. I'm not sure what the heck she is, but I suspect the lack of clear genre definition may be why she's currently in Britain rather than the US to launch her career, too.
People like Josh Groban would most likely be considered 'Easy Listening' over here, which is pretty much the kiss of death as far as the mainstream is concerned. No offence to his fans, but he may be TOO easy to box and a bit too safe for the British public, if my limited knowledge of him is at all accurate.
As for The Wall vrs Dark Side Of The Moon, I think both are highly praised by music lovers and critics alike, but Dark Side... is definitely considered PF's masterpiece in the UK (And, as you say, most of the world). I can only guess at why The Wall did/does better in the US. Dark Side... is magnificent, but it's a far more experimental album than The Wall. Maybe it's that?
Perhaps that reliance on radio creates the 'neat box' idea? Or perhaps the radio shows are only giving their public what they want? I do think it really, really helps to have an extrovert personality if you want to break the states, though. Americans seem to want to know the artist as well as hear the music (That complete package thing).
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Post by Libby on Dec 3, 2011 7:13:53 GMT
Then there was Craig David who was told by a US radio host (Never identified) to lose his main musician if he wanted to crack the states because "You're black, he's white, and that confuses American audiences. They don't know which market you are aiming at Josh Groban's musicians, the ones who regularly tour with him, at least, are various races. So, that assumption is a bit silly to me. And, I might not be an expert on his fanbase in the UK, but from what I've seen, I think he has a lot of fans over there. The UK music industry people might call him Easy Listening, and also the one radio station in my area that plays Josh's songs (when they're new), is an easy-listening type station. However, I think to most of his fans, his appeal is his voice, and Josh himself, not just the style he sings, much like how we feel about Hayley. However, as good as Josh's voice is, I think it's less versatile than Hayley's. Josh is best suited to ballads and classical songs. His recent album has songs that I really can't categorize, though. They aren't all ballads, and there isn't much in the way of classical. I guess they would be considered pop, but they're a hundred times better than most mainstream pop, in my opinion. And he wrote nearly all of them, even one in Portuguese! He even helps write the music itself. So, maybe the more Hayley writes, the better. I always say the songs Hayley writes are among the best, if not THE best. The occasional cover song is still good, though. |
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Post by stevemacdonald on Dec 3, 2011 8:45:25 GMT
... It is interesting that the Rolling Stones only took off in the states after they stopped mimicing American R & B and started doing more original stuff, from about 1971 on. ... Hi Martin. Not to quibble, but I can attest that the Rolling Stones were huge in the states in 1965 — "Satisfaction" was our No. 1 single of that year and they had many original hit records here throughout the '65-'71 era. |
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Post by Libby on Dec 4, 2011 5:52:05 GMT
Yeah, and people keep singing that song on the reality shows.
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Post by postscript on Jan 6, 2012 16:17:31 GMT
Hi everyone.
I bow of course to our American friends who may wish to say "poppycock" but wallowing around in my own field of books I came across an analysis of NY publishers' view of marketing potential across the States. Whether this is based culturally or simply on population sizes I'm unclear. I would like to suggest that when ever we have talked about Hayley doing a tour or trying to make an impression in the States (and I am not dismissing the essentials of TV promotion/chat show interviews etc) I receive the impression that locations have been based on personal belief rather than any objective facts.
Would the following list of priorities for major NY book publishers be helpful in terms of importance to Hayley's efforts?
1.) New York
2.) Los Angeles
3.) Chicago
4.) Philadelphia
5.) Dallas/Fort Worth
6.) San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose
7.) Boston
8.) Atlanta
9.) Washington, DC
10.) Houston
11.) Detroit
12.) Phoenix
13.) Tampa, St Petersburg
14.) Seattle-Tacoma
15.) Minneapolis, St Paul
16.) Miami, Ft Lauderdale
17.) Cleveland, Akron
18.) Denver
19.) Orlando, Daytona Beach
20.) Sacramento, Stockton, Modesto
21.) St Louis
22.) Portland, OR
23.) Pittsburgh
24.) Charlotte
25.) Indianapolis
26.) Baltimore
27.) Raleigh-Durham
28.) San Diego
29.) Nashville
30.) Hartford & New Haven
Peter S.
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Post by Libby on Jan 7, 2012 6:51:30 GMT
That looks like a very reasonable list to me. Of course, major cities are good targets, because they have larger populations, and the citizens are more likely to have access to and pay atttention to media sources, plus they are the ones that have the most ideal venues, usually. That would be a dream come true if she came to that many cities! It's almost as many as a Celtic Woman tour, though, and I wouldn't expect her to do that much, but I wish she could.
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Post by Richard on Jan 7, 2012 8:24:38 GMT
Hello folks!  This thread is now primarily about Hayley breaking the States, so I've moved it from the Off-Topic board where it had become off-topic, if you see what I mean.  Richard  |
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Post by postscript on Jan 7, 2012 11:47:57 GMT
Hello folks! This thread is now primarily about Hayley breaking the States, so I've moved it from the Off-Topic board where it had become off-topic, if you see what I mean. Richard We fully understand your tautology, Richard. Like your humour it frequently leavens our day!  Peter S. |
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Post by Richard on Jan 9, 2012 8:20:40 GMT
Hello folks! I've moved three off-topic posts to Believe DVD and tour on the Celtic Woman (without Hayley) sub-board. Richard |
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Post by gordie on Mar 12, 2012 0:51:48 GMT
Hayley versus the USA CC listener or perhaps it should be any CC vocalist versus the USA CC listener, As I see it, the CC genre is a mere hiccup between Opera, and everything else ( R & R, Jazz, R & B, Country, Hip-Hop and Rap). It is a genre which no longer is even recognized by the Grammy Awards.
However, I am beginning to see a crack in the wall that is trying to keep CC out of the fold. I am a Jackie Evancho fan and have been aware for some time of how well Jackie has been received on this site by Hayley fans. Recently more Jackie fans have come to hear of this warmth for Jackie expressed here and that is confirmed by the number of recent posts in Jackie's fan club site that have mentioned they have now read through this site. What this has done is to introduce Haley to a growing number of Jackie fans that are now following Haley and acquiring her cd's just as I have done.
I believe when CC artists from any country openly support other CC vocalists it likewise boosts their own support. To most Jackie fans Haley is considered an excellent role model for young aspiring CC vocalist as well of course is Sarah Brightman.
In a number of recent Jackie concerts, she has teamed up with some new young tenors from both Canada and the US and the attention and respect flowing between her and her guest tenors is not going unnoticed. This can only benefit the CC genre and the international family of CC vocalists.
It will take time but the signs sure do seem positive for OUR CC genre.
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Post by Libby on Mar 12, 2012 6:38:31 GMT
The fact that Jackie has mentioned Hayley as one of her influences/favorite singers (I remember reading that in an article soon after her rise to fame on the AGT show). Also, she has sung a couple of the songs Hayley has done, including Dark Waltz and River of Dreams.
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), as is proven by the fact that most (non-Country) major US artists are also known worldwide.
