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Post by martindn on Feb 7, 2011 19:27:45 GMT
Well said Elliot - I think that is what I tried to say earlier in my bumbling way - the biggest stars always have something fresh and original - thing of the greaest pop artists The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Abba, Beach Boys, Queen, or perhaps classical composers Bach, Berlioz,
, Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Tacaikovsky. They all did something nobody did before. And they are the ones who are superstars.
The ones who cpy the original artists don't usually make it so big UNLESS THE ORIGINAL IS SO OBSCURE THAT NOBODY GOT TO HEAR THEM. That usually results from lack of promotion. That is the danger Hayley runs, although stealing her thunder wouldn't be easy - you would need an exceptional voice to start with.
There are already others, better promoted than Hayley if not such talented singers, trying to do that. The advantage Hayley has over all of them is her vocal talent, but also her adaptability and willing ness to try new things, her own songwriting talent and her connections. She needs to make those things count. And to do that needs some real promotional effort.
So I agree, the Morricone Album will be unique, and gives Hayley a huge opportunity. Let's hope it doesn't just disappear into obscurity like s much of her other good work.
Martin D
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 7, 2011 21:38:17 GMT
I agree with you, Martin, but with one caveat: Hayley writing her own songs is only good as long as she is a gifted songwriter, the which we currently have zero actual evidence for.
She does need more original material to work with, which is the main reason I am so happy at seeing her working with Morricone. But the material has to be written for her superlative voice, which cannot be at all easy.
If Hayley can write material that stretches her talent, good. If she can't, she's better off collaborating with those who can.
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Post by martindn on Feb 7, 2011 23:06:03 GMT
Hi Elliott,
I don't agree that we have zero evidence of her songwriting talent. She has written a few songs, and a lot more lyrics. I have enjoyed them all. I think that is enough to know that she has a gift for it.
Whether that means that she could sit down and churn out a whole album full of songs to a deadline whilst maintaining a good standard though, is another matter entirely. Plenty try it, plenty of albums have "filler" when the artist doesn't have enough new original material. A band can often get away with just jamming. That's not really open to a singer. I'm sure you have heard albums like that. And I would hate to see Hayley go that way, not that I think she would be happy with it for a microsecond.
So yes, I think she should continue to write her own songs. I've enjoyed what I have heard, and would like to hear more. But I think her talent is more as a lyricist than a composer, and I understand she wrote some of the lyrics on the Morricone album.
As for stetching her talent, you make be think ot "Talk to Me", a song co-written by Hayley and performed only twice in public. It requires a lot of the singer, huge vocal range for one thing. It needs a very special singer, and I think there are not many who could perform it adequately. Hayley's performances were I though rather raw, the song could do with more work on the arrrangement, but I think she was just doing it off the top of her head, and playing the piano too.
Perhaps she is not yet ready to do a full album of her own songs. But I would like to see her keep plugging away at the songwriting, writing a song as and when the muse takes her, until she has enough quality songs to release an album. I'm sure I would love it, and that I wouldn't be the only one.
But for now, working with Ennio Morricone was too good an opportunity to miss. And since some of the worlds finest composers seem to like working with her, she perhaps doesn't need to put pressure on herself to write new songs, especally not if it means compromising their quality. But I live in hope that something of her own will appear someday.
Martin D
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Post by larryhauck on Feb 8, 2011 2:08:09 GMT
This Which Direction Thread has run it's course. It's became a forum for two people.
I think it's time to let it die. It's boring.
Larry
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Joe
Administrator
Supporting Hayley since 2003!
Posts: 6,715 
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Post by Joe on Feb 8, 2011 4:08:47 GMT
This Which Direction Thread has run it's course. It's became a forum for two people. I think it's time to let it die. It's boring. Larry Hi Larry, I think it's still a viable discussion i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 8, 2011 4:10:51 GMT
Martin, Hayley has CO-written a few things, but we really have no idea just how much is her work and how much is not. She may have written nearly all of the words & music and others have just polished it up; she may have written almost none of it; or anything between. Hence, I maintain we have no evidence  |
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Post by larryhauck on Feb 8, 2011 5:35:11 GMT
This Which Direction Thread has run it's course. It's became a forum for two people. I think it's time to let it die. It's boring. Larry Hi Larry, I think it's still a viable discussion i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifHi Joe I can't agree with you. I think it's just idle speculation. Unless someone has a crystal ball ...who knows what's in another's mind. We've had no hints relative to the subject. That makes it pure conjecture. I guess that's OK if you chose. Larry |
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Post by Libby on Feb 8, 2011 6:07:43 GMT
Yes, Martin, I did hear the Christmas songs, and yes, she sang them with such conviction as I've never heard from Hayley, and she truly amazed me, even in the songs that I wouldn't consider my most favorite (i.e. Have Yourself...now that was amazing). Well, the collaboration with Ennio Morricone already has Celtic Woman fans "sitting up and paying attention" (via CW forum). They recognize the name from the CW song, Nella Fantasia. And of course a large majority of CW fans are Americans. I can also tell you the fans on that forum are excited simply because it's a Hayley album, too, amazingly enough.  Elliot, I absolutely cannot believe you're saying that there's no evidence that Hayley is a gifted songwriter!!  Just get out your Treasure and Winter Magic CDs, and you'll find out! Or watch the Talk to Me video! Okay, so she didn't write them all by herself, but I believe she did most of the lyric writing, and most likely some input on the music itself. The inserts sometimes list her name first, so that tells me that she did most of the lyric-writing. All I know is that she helped create some very beautiful songs.That's all the evidence I need to say she's a good, and gifted songwriter. You seem to be the only one here who thinks that way. I doubt that anyone else here agrees with that statement. As far as Hayley on the internet, the new Facebook page seems somewhat promising. It seems that they are trying to do something for her on the internet. I still think they ought to make it so her tweets show up on her facebook page, or vice versa. Psst... I happen to know from a reliable source that a new website is coming in the near future. |
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Post by Libby on Feb 8, 2011 6:26:01 GMT
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Post by xanadu66 on Feb 8, 2011 9:57:52 GMT
There has not been a noticeable increase in forum visitors from Italy. Only one guest of the last 500.  Thank you for that, Joe. Perhaps that was Signore Morricone checking up on things! This Which Direction Thread has run it's course. It's became a forum for two people. I think it's time to let it die. It's boring. Larry Hi Joe I can't agree with you. I think it's just idle speculation. Unless someone has a crystal ball ...who knows what's in another's mind. We've had no hints relative to the subject. That makes it pure conjecture. I guess that's OK if you chose. Larry I’m sorry you find this discussion boring, Larry but you don’t have to read it if you don’t wish to. I would like to point out that nobody is trying to speculate; that is not the purpose of this discussion. I merely invited members to offer their opinions as to which direction they think may be of benefit to Hayley’s career. With respect, I don’t believe it is your place to tell other members what they can and can’t post to this site. I had hoped to respond to a few other comments that have been made since my last visit but, in view of the above, perhaps I had better refrain. Thanks for your support, Joe. |
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Post by Elliot Kane on Feb 8, 2011 14:31:14 GMT
Libby,
Sorry, but there's no evidence. We have absolutely NO idea how much Hayley wrote of any of the songs she has had some involvement in writing. The album sleeves do not say anything useful, like 'lyrics by Westenra, music by Morricone', do they? They leave us nothing with which to make any realistic judgement.
Did Hayley write all of the lyrics? Some of the lyrics? A rough draft, or the final polish? Same with the music: did she have a tune in mind that was polished by others? Did she add the odd phrase? We know none of this.
All we can truly and honestly say about Hayley's songwriting right now is that she has collaborated to an unknown extent on a few songs. And that's all.
If you wish to consider her a 'gifted songwriter' that is, of course, your prerogative. But you really should not be surprised if others will need rather more evidence on the matter before coming to any kind of conclusions themselves.
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Post by Libby on Feb 8, 2011 20:22:40 GMT
If Hayley's name appears first, it tells me that her input was greater than that of the person listed after her. That's how I interpret it.
So, you're right that we don't have much evidence about what she wrote and what she didn't. But as I said, we know that she has at least helped to create some very beautiful songs, and to me, that's good enough to say that she is gifted at whatever part she had in it.
Hayley has talked about writing songs before, like something will come to her while she's doing the "washing" or something. Or she'll say she's "songwriting on my guitar". We don't know if she was talking about when she wrote Treasure or WM songs, or something we've never heard before. But the guitar quote was made (via old facebook) not long before she recorded Winter Magic. But of course, we don't know if that was really for a song on Winter Magic, or a song that we have yet to hear.
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Post by martindn on Feb 8, 2011 20:34:08 GMT
Hi Elliott,
We do have evidence about how some of the songs, if you are prepared to accept Hayley's word, and I'm sure I am. She has told us about how she came to write "Let Me Lie" for example.
There is even a Japanese documentary about the writing of "On the Wings of Time", so we know that Hayley wrote the lyrics but not the music.
She has also mentioned about writing the songs she is credited with on Winter Magic. On her tour she claimed to have written both "All with You" and "Peace Shall Come". No mention of Jeff Franzel. I don't think Hayley would have said that is she had not done most of the work herself. And her co-writers might have something to say about Hayley claiming to write songs that were not primarily hers. And both of those are piano driven songs, and we know that Hayley uses the piano to compose.
That means to me that there is also a good chance that the same was true of the other Franzel co-writes, the ones on Treasure for example.
As for the HSJS albums, I expect she had some help with the translation. In many cases, it seems to me, the lyrics are more positive and uplifting than the originals. This fits well with Hayley's own positive outlook on life, as evidenced by her choice of material in general.
I have also noticed definite signs of progression, as you might expect from a young person who is learning the ropes of songwriting. Her early songs such as the ones on Treasure were simpler than her later ones, both the lyrics and melodies.
Her co-witers are all older and more experienced than Hayley. If they were the primary writers, I doubt we would be seeing that sort of progression.
So you are right, we weren't flies on the wall and we don't know everything about how those songs were written. But there is some factual and lots of circumstantial evidence that suggests that Hayley was the driving force in most if not all cases. And having seen Hayley at work, I know she can be a very determined young lady when her music is involved, and has very strong ideas about how she wants things done. I'm sure she would have plenty of input into the songs that bear her name.
Martin D
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Post by larryhauck on Feb 8, 2011 21:14:18 GMT
Hi Joe You're absolutely right I don't have to read them. And I seldom do. So I guess when there's not much else going on some may find them interesting. MY BAD Larry  |
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Post by Libby on Feb 8, 2011 21:23:47 GMT
Well, there you go, Elliot. i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif So, besides your Treasure and WM CDs, you need to get out your copy of In Her Own Voice, too. That's where she told about coming up with Let Me Lie. Oh, and don't forget Melancholy Interlude (well, obviously you did) ! She talked about sitting in her hotel room in Japan, searching for music on her computer, and she came across the music composed by John Dowland in the 1600's or something (forgot his name), and then she said she wrote lyrics to it. If you look at the song's credits, it just says John Dowland's name and Hayley's. In that case, the composer, who is no longer alive, would not be around to help her with any lyrics. If anyone else had helped her, it would say so. In Let Me Lie, Hayley's name is listed first, and then Sarah Class'. In Summer Rain, Hayley's is listed after Jeff's, and listed last in Le Note Del Silenzio, but then the song is partly in Italian. For ALL of the songs on Winter Magic, Hayley's name is listed first. And Hayley did write the lyrics to On the Wings of Time, as we saw in the video. She even had to have written the Maori lyrics, otherwise it would say who had helped her. She probably just wrote them in English, and had them interpreted. Or maybe she knows more Maori than we think. So now what do you have to say, Elliot? i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif No evidence, huh? If you've never read Hayley's book, I suggest you do so; and if you have, I recommend a review.  Thanks Martin!  |
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Just get out your Treasure and Winter Magic CDs, and you'll find out! Or watch the Talk to Me video! Okay, so she didn't write them all by herself, but I believe she did most of the lyric writing, and most likely some input on the music itself. The inserts sometimes list her name first, so that tells me that she did most of the lyric-writing. All I know is that she helped create some very beautiful songs.That's all the evidence I need to say she's a good, and gifted songwriter. You seem to be the only one here who thinks that way. I doubt that anyone else here agrees with that statement.
