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Post by milewalker on Jan 29, 2009 1:46:09 GMT
Hi Roger,
What exactly is crossover about You Raise Me Up? I would have classified it as a soaring pop anthem which happened to be popularized by a singer who is perceived to be crossover. To illustrate the point, this song actually got radio play in America on adult contemporary radio stations. None of the other songs you mentioned made much of a splash outside of mainstream charts - at least not in the US.
The point I am trying to make is that we are talking about 3 to 5 percent of total market - and as long as the sales stay at that level, I wouldnt expect anyone to invest much energy. If we assume that the best song writers would be the ones most likely to incorporate a classical theme, wouldnt it also be the case that the same writers would tend to gravitate more towards where the real money was?
You are viewing this in terms of risk. I dont think there is that much risk.....the problem is in the payoff.
Jon
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Post by phillip on Jan 29, 2009 2:55:18 GMT
Hi Roger, What exactly is crossover about You Raise Me Up? I would have classified it as a soaring pop anthem which happened to be popularized by a singer who is perceived to be crossover. To illustrate the point, this song actually got radio play in America on adult contemporary radio stations. None of the other songs you mentioned made much of a splash outside of mainstream charts - at least not in the US. The point I am trying to make is that we are talking about 3 to 5 percent of total market - and as long as the sales stay at that level, I wouldnt expect anyone to invest much energy. If we assume that the best song writers would be the ones most likely to incorporate a classical theme, wouldnt it also be the case that the same writers would tend to gravitate more towards where the real money was? You are viewing this in terms of risk. I dont think there is that much risk.....the problem is in the payoff. Jon What makes it "crossover" is how and who it's sung by. I did an unscientific poll on Hayley's favorite songs according to views on YouTube. Many of them are there more than once that it is jimpossible to be accurate, but her most popular songs seem to be the following very roughly in order: =====================first Group Amazing Grace Pokarekare Ana Scarborough Fair Dark Waltz Danny Boy ============== Second group Pie Jesu Wuthering Heights May it Be Ave Maria ======== Traditional hymns and folksongs seem important. The appeal is to those people who aren't fans of either core classical or flavor of the month pop. It could be called a mid-brow audience even, and it is an older audience who don't buy anywhere near as many records as the younger generations. It has been a neglected market with only a few like Sarah Brightman involved until recently. I am fairly new to listening to Hayley and to this forum and am not sure of some things. I had thought of Hayley singing other traditional folk songs but many may not be acceptable to her or her main fans. |
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Post by roger on Jan 29, 2009 10:33:21 GMT
Hi Roger, What exactly is crossover about You Raise Me Up? I would have classified it as a soaring pop anthem which happened to be popularized by a singer who is perceived to be crossover. Hi Jon, Actually, I was merely quoting songs that had been mentioned earlier in this thread but it also depends how you define "crossover". As you say, it has been popularized by many singers who are considered crossover. I don't see it as an out-and-out pop song even though, technically, it may be. To me, it definitely has a quasi-classical feel to it and that puts it loosely into the crossover repertoire. Roger |
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Post by socalboy on Jan 29, 2009 21:24:53 GMT
I think this is one of those topics where crossing the pond makes a world of difference. I don’t think a viable classical crossover genre exists in the U.S. As Jon points out, whatever category he is in, Josh Groban is its only marketable member right now, and a genre of one is no genre at all. I think Groban earns the label only because they don’t know where else to put him. The fact is, Groban’s audience is overwhelmingly female, which is not at all true of the classical music genre as a whole in the States. Personally, I’d put Groban in what I call the “Romance” genre, but that’s a topic for another day.
To tie that directly in with this topic, no true genre translates to a virtually infinite repertoire. Groban’s breakthrough album was Noel, a fairly standard Christmas compilation. I think that was one of Charlotte’s biggest albums here too. So they’ve been most successful by extending themselves outside the traditional repertoire of classics, whatever that is. Again, I can only speak for the U.S., but confining oneself to a pure “classical” repertoire in the States is probably not the way to get a contract extension.
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Post by martindn on Jan 29, 2009 22:24:04 GMT
Hi Socal,
Well, what did they (in the US) make of Pure then. Was it too radical? Do crossover artists have to churn out the same old stuff over and over again?
Actually I think you are right about Josh. Noel is the only listenable thing I've heard from him, in my opinion obviously.
Crossover appears to be a stopgap that allows promising young singers to express themselves until they grow up. Or was until Hayley came along.
There is no reason what any artist needs to be limited by the artificial boundaries of so-called genres. An artist like Hayley trancends such things. In her case it is the artist that matters. Whatever she sings will be wonderful.
So call it what you like, but Hayley can sing just about anything, it will be the best rendition of that song you have ever heard, and I really think she can't be categorised, even as "crossover".
A true singer like Hayley, and perhaps she is the only one, does not need to limit herself according to someone else's ideas of what she should be doing. She has the world of music to choose from, What she chooses is her decision, and so far has been absolutely right. Perhaps we should propose a new genre called "Hayley". Or perhaps just "music", sung by a "singer" since that is what it is, and she acknowledges no other limits.
If crossover is finite, I'm sure Hayley does not belong to it.
Martin
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Post by socalboy on Jan 29, 2009 23:13:37 GMT
Hi Martin:
I wish I had the answer for Pure – a lot of frustrating questions could be put to rest. Personally, Pure is on my list as one of the half dozen best albums ever in any genre. It’s that good. The fact that it failed to connect in the States is just more evidence that crossover is a dicey proposition in these parts.
I’m pretty much on board with everything you say. While there are obvious examples of singers who belong to one genre or another, much of the labeling is super-added for convenience and marketing efficiency. It’s often artificial and unnecessarily self-limiting. I love Hayley when she gets country, but also when she gets dark and mysterious. You said, “If crossover is finite, I’m sure Hayley does not belong to it.” Pretty much says it all for me.
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Post by nicola on Jan 30, 2009 9:43:49 GMT
I... err... found this post quite unsettling. About Josh though, I have always been a bit uncomfortable with his 'crossover' status. He has only sung one true classical song in his career (Caruso). He sings some pop songs in different languages every now and again but he has never, ever once used an operatic voice, because he hasn't got one. I think he's just pop, and for marketing purposes I wound bung him in adult contemporary along with Celine Dion. The fact that the Americans of this board are saying that Josh is their only "successful" crossover artist tells me that America doesn't really have crossover there at all. But I was under the impression that Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman are massive over there. Judging an artists success in America by observing how high they chart is a grave error, in my opinion. There are plenty of artists with sellout tours that barely chart at all. Back to your post... sheesh, I'm not sure I have the words to address it without causing an argument or coming across really rude.  i think it's best to leave it, but I think I can say that there are a great number of artists that have the freedom to do exactly what they want - so free that one album can be industrial goth, the next classical violin, and the next darkwave electronica. |
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jan 30, 2009 14:32:53 GMT
...The fact that the Americans of this board are saying that Josh is their only "successful" crossover artist tells me that America doesn't really have crossover there at all. But I was under the impression that Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman are massive over there. Judging an artists success in America by observing how high they chart is a grave error, in my opinion. There are plenty of artists with sellout tours that barely chart at all. Hi Nicola and everyone, Here is a list of the top 10 Classical Crossover albums in the US last year (to the end of November as usual): 1 Josh Groban - NOEL 2 Andrea Bocelli - THE BEST OF ANDREA BOCELLI: VIVERE 3 Paul Potts - ONE CHANCE 4 Josh Groban - AWAKE 5 Andrea Bocelli - VIVERE: LIVE IN TUSCANY 6 Sarah Brightman - SYMPHONY 7 Josh Groban - AWAKE LIVE 8 Andrea Bocelli - INCANTO 9 Andrea Bocelli - LO MEJOR DE ANDREA BOCELLI: VIVERE 10 Yo-Yo Ma - YO-YO MA & FRIENDS: SONGS OF JOY & PEACE That's why Josh is counted as classical crossover, that is the genre his record company have selected for his albums and Billboard have accepted it. But I take the point that you and some others have made, that whether or not he should be in that chart is debatable. All the usual suspects are there, although I do not think Paul Potts will last more than another year or two up there (just my personal opinion). Josh, Andrea and Sarah will just go on and on, Yo-Yo Ma will continue genuinely crossing over between classical and classical crossover and singers like Sissel and Hayley will sometimes appear in it, usually in years when they have a new release. But when you look at the number of different singers in there, it's a very short list! For comparison, here is the nearest UK equivalent, the Classic FM chart of 2008: 1. Priests - The Priests 2. Katherine Jenkins - Sacred Arias 3. Fron Male Voice Choir - Voices of the Valley: Home 4. Salvation Army - Together 5. Cistercian Monks - Chant: Music for Paradise 6. Andrea Bocelli - Incanto 7. Royal Scots Dragoon Guards - Spirit of the Glen: Journey 8. Mike Oldfield - Music of the Spheres 9. Russell Watson - The Ultimate Collection: Special Edition 10. Jonathan Ansell - Tenor at the Movies Ten different artists, which is I think a sign of a relatively healthy genre... but interestingly, only four solo singers are in there, which is the same as in the US chart. Make of that what you will! Hayley's 'Best Of' album is at no. 14 (though she does of course appear in Mike Oldfield's album). Back more strictly on topic, there is certainly some new material in both of the above charts but the majority of it is, I think, the same old material re-packaged and I think this will almost inevitably continue, it is the name of the classical crossover game. Cheers, Dave |
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Post by nicola on Jan 30, 2009 20:44:02 GMT
Wow, Dave. Thanks for that very interesting comparison. I was aware of the Classical Crossover charts (and I think it has a category in the Grammys?) but wasn't aware of what its charts looked like. It looks so unhealthy! How many artists are actually over there? The UK seems to have hundreds at a time. I'm surprised Il Divo is not there? Are they not classed as Crossover? I think Bond are quite successful in the US too, but they have been quiet for a long time. I guess crossover is not as big over there as it has so much competition. America is a huge market, so I would suppose that crossover gets lost in the crowd. Katherine is going to try for it this year - good luck to her. If she can't make it (she is every marketers dream), I doubt any of our other youngun's will. |
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Post by martindn on Jan 30, 2009 23:06:22 GMT
Hi Nicola,
No problem. ALL artists ultimately have the freedom to do what they want. Some, quite a lot actually, have come unstuck trying to do it. Some may choose to hide behind or limit themselves to a particular genre, but in the end it is their choice. Most, in the end, choose not to exercise that freedom as fully as they could, they make quite a nice living by staying in their comfort zone. I would not blame Hayley if she did the same.
In fact we have seen that Hayley DOES get a bit nervous about radical change. She was nervous, I'm sure about singing without a microphone for instance, even though Dame Malvina knew she could do it. In the end she gave a wonderful performance by all accounts. I have friends who were blown away by that video of Barcarolle.
What Hayley needs I think most of all, is the confidence in her own ideas and ability. She finds it hard to believe that someone like her, from an unfashionable place like Christchurch, can become world famous. But she should be reassured by the love and belief in her that is expressed by her fans.
What will limit her, if anything does, is lack of confidence, not lack of ability.
Martin
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Post by grant on Jan 31, 2009 0:20:24 GMT
What Hayley needs I think most of all, is the confidence in her own ideas and ability. She finds it hard to believe that someone like her, from an unfashionable place like Christchurch, can become world famous. Hi Martin Not sure I totally agree with all you say here. Didn't she show a great amount of confidence in her fight to have Wuthering Heights included on the track list for Pure? For sure, Hayley is a very modest young lady who still sees herself as "Li'l old Hayley from Christchurch" which is, I believe why we can and do love her so much. Best wishes Grant |
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Post by milewalker on Jan 31, 2009 1:12:44 GMT
Just one additional contribution to topic drift  Sarah Brightman is probably fading here. Il Divo would probably show up if the chart were extended to the top 20 I suspect. Bond had a brief and shining moment in the sun - but that was a while back now. It isnt only too much competition in my opinion - America is also huge in terms of geographic spread. For that reason, a local act which doesnt chart is likely to remain local. One other more controversial reason why there may be fewer crossover songs written or arranged might be a fear (justified or not) that the singers of the genre might not be able to handle the vocals.....water them down too much and you risk the open wrath of the purists (not to mention dismissal by the critics). Jon |
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Post by larryhauck on Jan 31, 2009 1:25:44 GMT
Hi Grant,
I agree with you. I think Hayley is as fragile as a rose pedal, but as tough as nails. I think Hayley is completely capable of determining what she wants.
Hayley was seventeen when Pure was released and now she's soon to be twenty two. Hayley has shown the ability to grow and mature and I'm sure she is much more assertive now then in her younger years.
She spoke volumes when she said she wanted to be called a singer and not pigeon holed into any singular genre.
Larry
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Jan 31, 2009 2:59:58 GMT
Hi Nicola, Jon and everyone, Il Divo, Paul Potts and Josh Groban do not qualify for the UK classical chart and as you say Jon, Il Divo are in the annual Billboard top 25 classical crossover albums, at no. 13 and no. 19. Sissel is at no. 20 but sadly, Hayley is outside the top 25. I have just posted the top 25 in the charts board hereNow here's an interesting chart I've just worked out - the unofficial UK classical crossover top 10 albums of 2008! UK Top Albums - Classical Crossover 2008 (unofficial chart) 1 Il Divo - The Promise 2 Priests - The Priests 3 Katherine Jenkins - Sacred Arias 4 Andrea Bocelli - Vivere: The Best Of 5 Fron Male Voice Choir - Voices of the Valley: Home 6 Salvation Army - Together 7 Cistercian Monks of Stift Heligenkreuz - Chant: Music for Paradise 8 Josh Groban - A Collection 9 Andrea Bocelli - Incanto 10 Russell Watson - The Voice: People Get Ready You can see that Il Divo would have been top... and that for the first time ever, Josh Groban would have been in there! Josh spent a lot of time promoting in the UK last year and he is finally making some progress! Cheers, Dave |
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Post by martindn on Feb 1, 2009 1:00:02 GMT
What Hayley needs I think most of all, is the confidence in her own ideas and ability. She finds it hard to believe that someone like her, from an unfashionable place like Christchurch, can become world famous. Hi Martin Not sure I totally agree with all you say here. Didn't she show a great amount of confidence in her fight to have Wuthering Heights included on the track list for Pure? For sure, Hayley is a very modest young lady who still sees herself as "Li'l old Hayley from Christchurch" which is, I believe why we can and do love her so much. Best wishes Grant Hi Grant, Yes, I'm sure Hayley can be very formidable when she digs her heels in! But the danger is her modesty will lead her to underestimate what she is capable of achieving. HSJS was another radical departure that worked brilliantly and that will encourage her. The fact that Odysey and Treasure sold less than Pure, despite being excellent albums suggests that she now needs to do something different for the UK. And I really think that she will do so. For me she could sing anything and I know I would love it, but to move into the mainstream she has to give the mass of people out there what they think they want, something that will catch their imaginations. There are several ways she could go 1. A true crossover album with a bit of everything, perhaps widening the definition of crossover. 2 A singer songwriter album, consisting mostly of her own compositions 3. More of the same. that list is not exhaustive, and it wouldn't surprise me if Hayley surprised us with something totally different. And "confidence" in the context in which I meant it referred to her willingness to innovate. She obviously is supremely confident on stage for example. All artists who succeed long term have to re-invent themselves from time to time. That takes courage, and a belief that what you are doing is going to appeal to people. I really believe that Hayley has a talent that can give her huge success, if she can only find the way to get to a larger audience. So far she hasn't put a foot wrong. Will what she does still be called crossover? Only time will tell. Martin |
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i think it's best to leave it, but I think I can say that there are a great number of artists that have the freedom to do exactly what they want - so free that one album can be industrial goth, the next classical violin, and the next darkwave electronica.
Sarah Brightman is probably fading here. Il Divo would probably show up if the chart were extended to the top 20 I suspect. Bond had a brief and shining moment in the sun - but that was a while back now.