Is crossover scary?

[stevemacdonald]

Lovely as it mostly is, crossover music is sometimes weird and creepy. Think phantoms and dark waltzes. Think uncertain, misty isles where you can easily get lost. Think boisterous and besotted housewives throwing themselves at Il Divo.

Tell us about your scariest crossover experiences. Get it off your chest and you'll feel a lot better.

[loveyou]

The name "crossover" is a little bit out of focus. If use the name "crossaboveall", then, the performer will behave better, the audience will behave better and the commenter will be better.

[stevemacdonald]

Well anyway, I feel that crossover is vaguely creepy in that it puts very young people with vulnerable vocal cords onto the fast track, gives them a good run and then spits them out when their voices are no longer innocent. Charlotte Church is a prime example. For crossover purposes she sounded great until she inevitably grew up. By then the damage was done. Oh what might have been had she gone the proper route. Let's hope the new kids are spared some of this (Connie, are you listening?).

[roger]

Hi Steve,

The risk of damage to a young voice is very real but that is equally true of any musical genre. I don't see why crossover should take the blame. Even if it is more likely with crossover artists (which I don't believe it is), it is still not the fault of the genre; it is the fault of poor quality training or the lack of any training.

Roger

[stevemacdonald]

Yes Roger, crossover isn't the only genre that exploits young people, but it is the only one with such an age disparity between the most successful young singers and the bulk of their fans. The expectations on a young crossover singer are mostly aimed to please people a generation or two older. The pressure to achieve perfection is huge. I don't see that kind of pressure in other genres even if their artistic demands are comparable.

[milewalker]

Hi Roger and Steve,

I think I have to side with Steve to some extent on this one.

As I recall, shortly after Hayley signed with Decca there was information released to the effect that she would be avoiding arias for a while. The example given at the time was "O My Dear Daddy" - and the reason given was concern for the care of her voice at the time. In other words, crossover in and of itself may not be vocally risky for a young teen, but certain types of it may very well be. Memory fades, but I think that this information may have come from a quote at the time from Dame Malvina. Hayley kept her repertoire pretty simple.

Even given this she is plagued by people like me who are concerned about where the old high notes went.....A well placed female adolescent voice is a wondrous thing to hear - but even in Hayley's case I suspect that many of her original fans liked her because of that "purity" and to some extent she is going to lose that over the course of time. I like Hayley's voice now possibly more than I did 5 years ago - but if the "Dark Waltz" sound was the reason you bought "Pure" there is a potential problem lurking. It is a sound rigidly locked into one unique place and time, and once the moment is past the sound will never be quite the same. It may be better or worse, but it will be different.

If you are Leann Rimes, Tanya Tucker, or Janet Jackson this isnt such a big deal because a pristine voice and technical excellence are not really job requirements in their line of music. A country or pop singer can be raspy - which means that any change or even "vocal damage" they may have suffered because they performed too much too soon isnt necessarily a problem. A classical or crossover singer doesnt have that cushion because some measure of vocal skill and technical expertise are built into the music.

Jon

[Tin]

Hi guys,

Aug 11, 2008 18:37:36 GMT @roger said:

Hi Steve,

The risk of damage to a young voice is very real but that is equally true of any musical genre. I don't see why crossover should take the blame.

Roger you spoke my mind. If crossover should be deemed a 'dangerous' genre, then the pure classical genre would be untouchable. Yet we see so many eminent opera singers; apparently it all has to do with enough training and probably some intrinsic talent.

And Jon, I as well realised that Hayley had become a bit more conservative about when to show off her high pitch. Anyway, the same as you I do prefer Hayley's present voice to her voice in Pure and the albums prior to it. I can't really say that her present voice sounds superior to her young voice; I prefer it just because I feel an individuality and find more strength in her present voice now.

Isn't the situation similar to choirs in boy schools? Younger students have the treble voice and thus sing in the treble choir (I did sing part of Carmen in my school's 150th Anniversary Concert in 2000 as a member of the treble choir! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif). As their voice matures they have to be inevitably tranferred to the Senior Choir. That doesn't necessarily mean their voice has become less attractive... You know, it's just different, and as Jon had said, their voice may become better or worse.

Oh by the way now that you guys talk of it, I do remember a so-called scary experience in crossover. I think I watched a video in YouTube which featured Bono singing 'Hail Mary' (I know I know, only English allowed). That was a bit, well, innovative, but as you can picture, this just wasn't his song to sing.

Best wishes,
Tin

[milewalker]

Aug 12, 2008 4:01:55 GMT Tin said:

If crossover should be deemed a 'dangerous' genre, then the pure classical genre would be untouchable. Yet we see so many eminent opera singers; apparently it all has to do with enough training and probably some intrinsic talent.

Hi Tin

I am not sure that the number of opera singers is relevant to the question. There is a rule of thumb (and granted also many exceptions) that they do not actually perform major roles in an opera until at least their mid 20's.

One notable exception is Maria Callas who performed "Tosca" in Greece at the age of 17 (she lied about her age). For what its worth, her voice was pretty much shot by her early 40's. There may be a general rule here - wait until you are 25ish to perform very challanging material and you may last until you are 60 or even older if you are lucky. Perform similar material at 13 or 14 - even somewhat watered down - and you may not make it to 20.

What I think happens is that singing too much too early causes the voice to prematurely age - at 16 CC had some characteristics of a heavy dramatic soprano. I may be excoriated for saying this, but I suspect that something similar is also happening to Hayley - albeit to a much lesser degree

Jon

[Tin]

Aug 12, 2008 14:36:06 GMT milewalker said:

What I think happens is that singing too much too early causes the voice to prematurely age - at 16 CC had some characteristics of a heavy dramatic soprano.

I always think that CC actually affected that soprano voice of hers when she did classical pieces. After she'd changed to pop style, her voice didn't sound like a soprano at all. Well, that's just my speculation.

Tin

[stevemacdonald]

Tin, the high-soprano voices are indeed "affected" in that they are basically falsetto -- and Hayley uses her falsetto range in many songs. Charlotte developed her falsetto notes early in the game but switched it off when she went pop.

Like Jon, I detect a change in Hayley's voice that may be attributable to her extensive performing. Part of it is her own self-preservation: She's conserving as much as possible to make it last as long as possible, and that means avoiding the tough stuff. And part of it is because of feedback: She knows what works best and devotes her vocal energy to the most pleasing sounds she can make, the majority of which are not high-soprano of "Dark Waltz" but in the easy-listening range. Perhaps if she really needed to hit the dog-whistle notes for a special project like a soundtrack under controlled conditions she could with relative ease, but there's no real need for her to go fully operatic.

Keeping to the scary theme of this thread, this falsetto voice that operatic sopranos use is an acquired taste. To me it sounds like they're screaming much of the time, albeit in tune and with great sophistication. And that screaming (or "EEK!-ing") can be freaky as all heck to the uninitiated.

[Dave]

Aug 12, 2008 16:02:35 GMT stevemacdonald said:

Tin, the high-soprano voices are indeed "affected" in that they are basically falsetto...

Hehe, I think you may have opened a can of worms there, Steve!

Dave

[Natasha]

Interesting discussion! I don't find crossover "creepy" in fact I love it! New age music is another thing...

I have to disagree with those who say that singing young hurts you. Singing, when your singing correctly, is merely pushing air through your diaphragm, which in turn makes your chords vibrate, which in turn creates sound. So long as you have the proper technique, and are not tampering with your natural sound, you can sing your entire life. The problem with singing young is mostly that the kids are singing without proper technique, so it is the way they sing not the genre - well except the screaming that's done in metal music, I don't think there's a healthy way of doing that if you want to sing for years, haha.

Most young singers (both boys and girls) start out as sopranos and so if you are singing young, you will actually experience the change to whatever range your voice will end up in. The voice change in girls is a topic rarely discussed. My voice teacher went through it, and I did myself. The famous mezzo Marilyn Horne who started at about 5, also experienced the change. It is a natural process, just like any other part of of growing up. Julie Andrews said she went through something similar. When she was little she had an incredibly high voice, and then when she got younger, it got lower and rich and became the voice we all recognize as Julie.

One of the hard aspects of the change is that sopranos, especially light sopranos, are used to producing sound with less air so in some ways they have to re-learn the way they breathe in order to support the bigger sound. I think Hayley's voice is doing much of the same thing. She may be becoming a mezzo, or just a heavier soprano. Either way she sounds fantastic and I think her voice will be with us for years to come.

[grant]

Hi Natasha

Thank you for explaining in a way that the technically uninitiated like me can understand.

I'm very glad to hear that Hayley's voice will be around for many years to come and hopefully Hayley will continue to share it with us.

Best wishes
Grant

[chantelle]

And if I may jump in with one more "technical" point...

Women do not sing in falsetto-- only men do. A woman singing at the top end of her range uses her "head voice," and in extreme cases, such as Mariah Carey or Linda Eder, can reach up into whistle tones.

[milewalker]

Hi Natasha,

I would question your information regarding Ms Horne - as several web sites suggest that she made her operatic debut at age 20, and performed her first full role at 22. I am sure this didnt occur overnight, and she probably had an early start - but I would still question how much of which repertoire and how vigorously she was singing before her late teens.

In any event, I am not saying that singing in and of itself is bad for a kid. I do question the wisdom of allowing them to sing a certain type of repertoire, or to perform too often, or for that matter featuring them as the star of a venue. While it is probably true that technique is the crux of the matter, I think this misses the point:

A 12 year old is capable of learning the safety techniques required to operate heavy industrial equipment - yet legally we still do not allow them to do this. The reason is quite simple - the 12 year old is subject to lapses in concentration, and all the technique in the world wont help if he simply isnt strong enough physically to run the machinery for an extended period of time. He might be able to run it safely for a few minutes - maybe even for an hour - but possibly not for an eight hour shift (the minimum professional level required to do the job). Similarly, a 12 year old can play baseball - sometimes even at a fairly high level - but teach one to throw a curve ball, and it is an arm injury waiting to happen. I dont have a problem with a kid singing - even professionally - if some restraint is involved. I do look a little askance when I see one singing La Pastorella or headlining a tour or doing more than two concerts a month

Also Natasha, I do not personally find the idea that Hayley may develop into a heavier soprano to be particularly reassuring. There are few types of singers with less mainstream commercial appeal than a dramatic soprano ....As a Hayley fan, I would just as soon not see her become Marilyn Horne because I simply dont care that much for the music/sound. I sure as heck dont want to see her become Jessye Norman - which getting back on topic is quite possibly the most frightening concept I have entertained today

Actually, if you read carefully, this is another part of the problem I mentioned above. A 30 year old will not normally change that much in 5 years - which means that a product bought by a fan will in general be pretty much the same 5 years later. During that time, an adolescent singer (male or female) will change into an rather different singer in the best of cases - which means that the same consistancy of product is simply not there.

I need to make it clear that I am not saying that Hayley has suffered "vocal damage" - I do think that her voice has possibly changed more rapidly, and possibly in a different direction than it might have if her work load were half as large. If Hayley were a country singer, or a mainstream pop singer I would not be nearly as concerned about it, simply because those genres are much more forgiving of these types of changes. In Hayley's case specifically however, the "purity" of her voice is her bread and butter.

Jon