Joe
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Supporting Hayley since 2003!
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Post by Joe on Dec 11, 2006 4:18:47 GMT
Hi all,
We are all familiar with music being categorised as "Celtic". What exactly defines music as being Celtic? Would you say that the choice of instruments such as tin whistle, bodhran and Uillean pipes OR where the musician was born would make their music "Celtic" ?
I had such a wonderful discussion on this on my forum that I would like to hear what my friends say on this forum!
Joe
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Post by Richard on Dec 11, 2006 9:32:51 GMT
Hello Joe!  I would say Celtic music is music that has its roots in Celtic countries, including but not necessarily confined to Ireland, Scotland or Wales, and features traditional instruments such as pipes, whistles and drums. Modern music written in a traditional style could also be Celtic, including compositions by Enya. There is an interesting article on the subject at Wikepedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_musicDon't miss the various links under 'See also'. Best Wishes, Richard  |
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Post by roger on Dec 11, 2006 10:17:53 GMT
Hi Joe,
Although I have never researched the subject, this is a question that has intrigued me for several years. There seems no doubt that it is a subdivision of folk music which, as it's name implies, means "music of the people" for which, I think we can assume, "traditional" or, if contemporary, then at least emulating the traditional style.
Despite having been a folk enthusiast for most of my life, I had never heard of the term "Celtic music" until comparatively recently. My understanding is that it originates in any of the regions where one of the Celtic languages was (or is) spoken. Those languages are Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Welsh, Cornish (from the county of Cornwall), Manx (Isle of Man) and Breton (north-western France). The Celtic lands also extend to those regions where there is a high proportion of emigrants (or their descendants), the most obvious example being Nova Scotia which, after all, means "new Scotland".
It may be worth mentioning that folk music in general is not particularly popular in much of England, especially in the south. It increases in popularity as you go further north and west and has a tremendous following in Scotland and Ireland. Is it possible, I wonder, that the term "Celtic" was coined for the benefit of those of us in England who *believe" we don't like folk music?
For me, Celtic music requires at least the occasional use of the pipes (be they highland, lowland, Northumbrian or Uillean), and the whistle but, especially in the case of Irish and Welsh, often includes a "Celtic" harp (smaller than an orchestral harp).
Next, we should consider the lyrics which, in order to be Celtic, should focus largely on stories of the people from the area from which the song originates. These tend to be about a particular way of life, about love, and about the local landscape (often naming specific locations), all of which could be said about pop songs!
That brings us back to instrumentation, musical arrangement, style, vocal technique and even rhythm. Of the latter, how often do you come across jigs, reels, and Strathspeys in anything other than Celtic music?
And, having seen Joe's Cottars Forum, I am aware that the question of pronunciation has been raised. It is definitely Keltic - not Seltic (they're a football team!).
Roger
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Post by comet on Dec 11, 2006 11:15:33 GMT
Hi Joe and folks in general.
How many books do you want to read on the subject.
All things celtic go back up to 3000 years maybe more,artifacts and structures are still being discovered all over Ireland due to road building and other construction projects.
Celtic Pronounced (Keltic).
would refer to almost all art forms.Music, painting, Jewelery design. garments, dwelling styles. boats etc, Including such famous items as
THE BOOK OF KELLS and the TARA Broach.
As far as I know some of it's forms are found as far south as west and north Africa.
If it's recent Irish music (Last 200 years) The BBC NORTHERN IRELAND kindly produced a set of TV Programs, CDs and at least one book, called:
"BRINGING IT ALL BACK HOME" by VARIOUS ARTISTS. 2CD set. 1991
The CD no. is HBCD0010
The book : ISBN 0-563-36195-6
I don't know if the TV series is available on DVD.
As a brief description of how the music traveled around the world and changed as it went this series is a good place to start.
Hummingbird Productions. and Philip King are a good place to start if you have Google or other such search systems.
Many have devoted their life to this research and Philip King is one of the best..
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Joe
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Supporting Hayley since 2003!
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Post by Joe on Dec 12, 2006 5:25:12 GMT
Hi all,
Wow! Many thanks for the contributions to this discussion. Certainly the term 'Celtic' can't apply to any one specific area of the world; at first Ireland and Scotland come to mind, but also Spain and Canada as well.
Here in the US, country music is largely based on Celtic music.
Cheers,
Joe
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Post by postscript on Dec 12, 2006 15:15:47 GMT
Hi all, We are all familiar with music being categorised as "Celtic". What exactly defines music as being Celtic? Would you say that the choice of instruments such as tin whistle, bodhran and Uillean pipes OR where the musician was born would make their music "Celtic" ? I had such a wonderful discussion on this on my forum that I would like to hear what my friends say on this forum! Joe Very interesting piont, Joe and one that has been exercising my mind since CW came into our a wareness for Hayley. My big question is, 'what is the difference between Celtic music and Irish music and is the difference more cultural perception than actual difference?' You mention different instruments. I would suggest the difference should be (if there is one) between tune/melody not the instruments that play. Richard will doubtless do an internet search so I won't encroach on his likely initiative. Groves should be the answer but i don t have that vast work while my 2-volume Oxford Companion to music gives me nothing of value. Peter S. |
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Post by postscript on Dec 12, 2006 15:24:53 GMT
A very interesting response Roger. Dare I push a comment one stage further which i had declined to state speifically in my post on this thread? Is it possible, I wonder, that the term "Celtic" was coined for the benefit of those of us in England who *believe" we don't like folk music? My thought that for us English, it might be a way of preventing people being 'turned off' by the otherwise Irish connection? Peter S. |
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Post by Richard on Dec 12, 2006 15:26:01 GMT
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Post by postscript on Dec 12, 2006 15:29:07 GMT
Most interesting, Comet.
Thank you.
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Dave
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HWI Admin
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Post by Dave on Dec 12, 2006 16:38:07 GMT
A very interesting response Roger. Dare I push a comment one stage further which i had declined to state speifically in my post on this thread? Is it possible, I wonder, that the term "Celtic" was coined for the benefit of those of us in England who *believe" we don't like folk music? My thought that for us English, it might be a way of preventing people being 'turned off' by the otherwise Irish connection? Peter S. I don't understand your final sentence Peter, are you suggesting that the English don't much like Irish music? I know I've personally never been a great fan of Irish folk music (though I love some Celtic music and the odd irish song too) but I wouldn't have thought that applied to English people generally! Let me ask a question: Is Irish music likely to be any more or less popular in say rural parts of Australia or Wales than in similar parts of England? I think the US is a special case because there's a huge "Irish" thing there (look at St. Patrick's Day!) and perhaps that explains the relative success of Celtic Woman - the Irish connection - and in Ireland, I assume that Celtic music is popular. Anyway, I'd say that Celtic music is not the same as Irish music - though there is obviously an overlap. The "Celtic Fringe" of Europe (including musically) spreads far beyond Ireland, as Joe mentioned. To me, Celtic music is derived from the folk music of parts of: Scotland and the Isles, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, NW France and parts of Spain and Portugal - so even parts of England are included in that! Cheers, Dave |
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Post by jons on Dec 12, 2006 17:26:22 GMT
Anybody here a fan of Kate Rusby or Triniti? Both belong to the Celtic genre, although Kate is more folk.
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Post by postscript on Dec 17, 2006 19:23:53 GMT
Hi Dave.
I was being deliberately obtuse so as not to offend anyone but I was apparently too obtuse!
It was a double barb. I was alluding to a possible politco/historical dislike of anything Irish by the English, as well as a musicological reason, a perception of Irish music being of a maudling, sentimental inclination.
However, your expanded paragraphs rather point up what I at least thought of as Irish music is not necessarily the same as Celtic music and Celtic music has a far wider compass than certainly I had thought. Thank you for that contribution.
Yours etc.
Peter S.
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Post by jons on Dec 23, 2006 16:23:36 GMT
Why is it that Emily Ovenden, Kate and Triniti don't seem to prove as popular has some artists. Anuna seem popular but the main draws to people are what I would call 'Boring Celtic musicians'.
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Post by roger on Dec 23, 2006 16:40:23 GMT
Hi Jon,
One reason springs to mind although there are sure to be others. They need to have good and prolonged promotion. Maybe that hasn't happened enough in the cases you mention.
Personally, I am not impressed by Triniti and I have never heard of the other two (which *may* prove my point). Kate who?
Roger
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Post by jons on Dec 23, 2006 17:22:19 GMT
Hi Roger,
Yes, you do prove a point regarding Kate Rusby. I had never heard of her before the duet with Ronan Keating. She is a folk singer with a very likable voice. Emily Ovenden sings with the The Mediaeval Baebes and Celtic legend. Regarding Celtic music, I don't like Celtic Woman. I would sooner see Hayley associated with Triniti or Celtic Legend, but thats my opinion. I find Celtic Woman too safe and uninspiring for my tastes. Having said that, what you like depends on your mindset, what you hear depends on your mindset. I want to hear subtleties in a voice, not just notes.
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