Harsh criticism of Hayley stops here!

[jons]

Steve MacDonald and Postscirpt brought up an interesting question for debate regarding criticism of Hayley. In that thread was a review Stephany found of Odyssey which was critical of Hayley’s music and herself because quite simply the reviewer just wanted to spread his hate. Steve mentioned Hayley is not everyone’s cup of tea (TEA!! Its good…. Sorry!) which is true, and also true of other artists. If Hayley read the ‘review’ if you can call it that, it would upset her - she’s only human. Nobody likes it when someone has hatred for them, especially if there is no reason for it. But this is advice that I give to myself as well as everyone else - these people, they are unimportant and yet we make them important by getting upset by them. The truth is though it can’t be helped and the natural thing is to show your support for the person who’s on the receiving end of this hate (Hayley in this case.) We all know that Hayley and anyone who is like her will always prosper because the values are strong. Good criticism would be targeted at Hayley’s choice of songs maybe, which we have seen in some ‘proper’ reviews. There is nothing else to criticise that I can think of. Certainly nothing about Hayley’s person.

I take my case to the court, to prove to everyone that these negative criticisms all prove unfounded:

True, some people can (and have) criticised Hayley for her choice of songs or that she doesn’t have a powerful voice like some singers. However complete criticism of Hayley’s voice is open to question. On a technical level there is proof of Hayley’s vocal qualities which have a good effect on a person’s mind whatever their disposition; the purity of her voice is true and proven, a result of which you cannot make the statement that Hayley’s voice is completely rubbish because the facts suggest otherwise. The offender in question, Mr ‘Gitdroid3000’ (The name has been changed because I feel that it suits him more!) sites Hayley as untalented….. Ok lets get straight to the point this ‘person’ and everybody like him is completely offended by Hayley probably because they either believe she is false or just feel that anything good and human is false.

‘Gitdroid3000’ argues that Hayley is not smart:

And she’s clearly not smart, just read her clumsy plug for Unicef in the liner notes:

Yeah that’s really clumsy! How do you expect her to put it? “Yo!, get down with the flow dudes! Check out the rad work that UNICEF are doing to help those kids who have got it bad, man, they’ve got it bad.”
Have you ever been to Africa ‘GitDroid3000’? Well neither have I. But do you think you are better than the people there? Do you think your better than these people, who despite suffering, don’t really complain, and show endurance, strength and even happiness way beyond what you can manage? How you been there like Hayley has and given them hope and joy? She’s not doing it for her health you know. She’s doing it because she cares!

‘Gitdroid3000’ seems to be under the impression that Hayley loves herself too much:

“The lyrics are basically the song’s title and “I’m Falling For You”. Somehow I imagine Hayley singing this to a mirror.”

(It could be jealousy because at least Hayley can look into a mirror and not have it crack!)

What evidence is there to support that? None as far as I know. Well if you dig deep there could be signs of Hayley showing vanity, maybe, sort of, I don’t know, if there is, you have the celebrity culture to thank for that, because it forces people into being conscious about the way they look. There is however plenty of evidence against her being selfish: Many anecdotes exist from fans describing her empathic nature. The anecdotes suggest she can read how people are feeling and puts them before herself. You don’t even have to take their word for it. During one interview Hayley coughed and said “excuse me” but it was the sincere way she said it that stands out. Hayley’s reaction to loosing at the Classical Brit Awards: tvnz.co.nz/view/video_popup_windows_skin/427915. (Thanks to Stephany for finding that.) Basically Hayley doesn’t go for determined winning.

Tell me. What type of person is Hayley who had a stalker try to get to her on stage, threatening the safety of the one place she considered the most safe and yet felt sorry for this guy because he didn’t make it to one of her shows earlier on. What type of person thinks that the demand to carry a water-bottle around with them is diva behaviour? This lady doesn’t have a bad bone in here body does she?

Hayley is one of things that keeps my heart pumping and it must be the same for a lot of fans on this forum and off. Her voice and personality are smashing. She doesn’t have to worry about what the trolls say because I don’t think its personal to Hayley but targeted to anything that’s good.

We have good reason to put Hayley on a pedestal. Even if she did fall we would be there for her. But there’s no reason for that to happen and even if it did there would be an explanation.


That is my case for the defence. It up to you the members of this forum to make up your own minds.

[milewalker]

The only problem I have with this Jon S is that it may be too black and white, when the world is in reality more of variagated shades of grey.

Her career occurs in that real world, and I think will eventually result in "compromises" to which different people are going to have different reactions to. In fact, on a low level, this is already beginning to happen. For example, in another thread, the possibility has been raised that Hayley might be touring Europe with Celtic Woman in the fall, and this might conflict with one or more appearances that she already has scheduled. She may be able to work that out, but I suspect that it is an issue that simply wouldnt have come up at all a few years ago. If Hayley is viewed as a solo artist, the entire collaboration with CW constitues a compromise with reality that isnt the case with Il Divo (where she was opening as a soloist).

The world of a 20 year old artist with past success is simply different than the world of the 15 year old just entering the world stage. One very clear difference is that the standards are higher, and for a long time expectations and demands are going to continue to increase, even assuming she wishes to simply maintain her current status. It may not be fair, but a 15 year old is judged by the public at large with a set of much simpler criteria - in reality she had no peer at 15. At 20, people will begin to compare her to Brightman and Jenkins and Enya. All of this may result in the older Hayley making a set of different decisions than the younger might have.

Different doesnt mean worse - but it can easily be perceived to be if you start from the assumption that something was perfect to begin with.

To one degree or another, all commercial artists are packaged. They all have an "image" which at best only approximates reality. They are all subject to some degree of PR hype. Can Hayley really sing supersonically? Does she really have perfect pitch (which is extremely rare) or was the actual phrase used by her teacher "pitch perfect"?

Will her voice "change". I thought it already has - and it will continue to do so whether she wills it to or not. She may become something that some people like less by the time she is 25 simply because her vocal growth occurs in a manner that they dont expect.

Is her voice open to technical criticism now? Of course it is. She cant sing an operatic aria the way the music was written to be sung. That is a technical criticism - and is entirely valid. There are many types of music she could possibly try to sing that she doesnt quite have the voice for - one heard this with the gospel inflection in I Say Grace. If she took Summer Fly to Nashville I suspect the same thing would happen.

Referring to a comment you made in another thread - Will her lyrics become "controversial"? This depends on the listener as much as the singer, because different people find controversy in different things. An athiest might find a hymn controversial. Someone with a very conservative sense of cultural values may already find cause for concern with Summer Fly. Once again, a 20 year old can stray into "controversial" territory that is more unlikely than it would be for a 15 year old simply because she is 20.

The bottom line is that Hayley is not perfect - no human being is. Neither are the people who buy her records - and neither are we - her "core" fans.
We are not the same, and therefore there is nothing she can do which will satisfy us all individually at the same level - nor do I really think it is wise for her to try. The ultimate problem with putting someone on a pedestal is that we are just as flawed as the subject.

Jon

[stevemacdonald]

milewalker said:

... Someone with a very conservative sense of cultural values may find cause for concern with Summer Fly. ...

Or with "In Trutina" even more -- good thing it's in Latin!

[milewalker]

Steve and all,

Here is a literal translation of the Latin

In my own wavering balance
Desire fluctuates with modesty
But I choose what I see
I bow my neck to the yoke
For the burden is sweeter after all
And so I take it upon me

The thing is that the true meaning can only be derived in context. Carmina Burana began as a set of quite racy songs written by Benedictine Monks - which Orff went on to adapt. The next song in the cycle involves the offering of ones virtue in pursuit of purely hedonistic pleasure/

If I were to put this together into more colloquial English and write a poem it might come out something like this.

I am in balance - in doubt in my mind
About a love that is chaste or lasivious kind
Two paths lie before me one of which I must chase
But my burden is lighter if I dont remain chaste

To be fair there is some dubia in my mentis as to just how "controversial" this song really is when sung out of context as it usually is - but it certainly caught more than one eye when CC recorded it at age 12.....

Getting this this back on topic, I found it interesting that Hayley deviated from the recorded words when she performed the song live at Faenol (sp)
Which of course, might be seen as an example that she did have an "image" and had to make a compromise to follow it at the time.

Jon

[jons]

"The true nature of man is decided in the battle between the conscious mind and the desires of the subconscious, the evil of our subconscious is too strong to resist. The only way to win is to deny it battle."

- Popular long running TV shows based on films have a lot answer for! In fact this particular one is a good teacher; must have good writers.

[jons]

I was going to explain that quote but no, check out the particular episode if you wish.

The criticism of Hayley stops here, because this is Hayley’s forum, everybody loves Hayley here don’t they? One of the reasons I posted this was to show up this ‘droid fella and any other haters of Hayley; they may not like her and can say what they want due to freedom of speech but demeaning someone who helps so many and is good in their values is a bad thing to do in my option, because that suggests they don’t like anything good and positive.

When I say Hayley won’t sing controversial lyrics I mean explicit lyrics. Want to criticise Hayley’s voice? Well go ahead, knock yourself out! I love her voice, I love the way Hayley has secretly made some of our wishes come true, like for instance the form of her voice from Pure is present on some songs from Treasure. Some of us wished that. I believe that Hayley’s voice will change again, subtly. If you can read Hayley she keeps going for the beautiful gentle approach to singing which is what the majority of fans want, its certainly what I want, I wouldn’t want to hear Hayley singing in a big booming voice for an opera. Of course its up to Hayley in the end as to which direction she goes down, but I believe that Hayley will always want to keep her voice on the level she currently has it and that’s not a criticism to me, and hopefully not to a lot of her fans.

But its not about criticism of Hayley’s voice that I’m getting, as I mentioned above, if your someone who wants to criticise Hayley for being a good person, then you are obviously not a good person yourself. Maybe nobody is perfect and their flawed. But if you are someone who likes to help others and never wants to hurt anyone in anyway that’s good enough for me.

The only flaw I could see may of been Hayley's vanity. On a food programme once, they showed the video to ‘Who Painted The Moon Black’ and Hayley said she was embarrassed, ’Do I really look like that?’ But you know how amazing Hayley looks in that video with that cute little hat and everything. I think Hayley was being modest. She one of the most beautiful women in the world and she’s worried about how she looks? Its like God having an inferiority complex!

I stand by what I think of Hayley. And I have no criticism of Hayley’s person.

This thread was to show technical and logical evidence to prove that Hayley is as special as we think she is, and we are not all hypnotised.

[postscript]

A very good resposne Milewalker with which I in the most part entirely agree.
Peter S.

[jons]

I just want to apologise for starting this thread and being a wally.