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Post by milewalker on Apr 6, 2007 18:10:04 GMT
Hello all,
I thought that it would be better to place this musing into a different thread - it is in a sense approaching the "sure-fire" theme from the other direction.
In my opinion if there is a single thing hurting Hayley here now it is that the expectattions are so dramatically lower. Pure performed so poorly here I think that a lot of mainstream music vendors got burnt - and it is going to present quite a challange to get her subsequent work to be stocked in any numbers for that reason.
There are times when I think the world would be a much better place if God hadnt made record companies....
One point which keeps arising is the ridiculous amount of money which Decca spent in the introduction of Pure into the UK - which far exceeded any reasonable expectation for the sales there - and also probably has resulted in less promotion that her subsequent releases might have warrented. In fact, I can only think of one explanation for it - that the idea may have been to make Hayley such a big UK star that the buzz would transfer over to America after the fashion of Charlotte Church and Voice of an Angel. I think we can even get a hint into just who the intended target audience of America was.
VOA sold about two million copies here. I wont go into many specifics here, (if anyone is actually interested in any of this we can deal with that below). However, the single biggest demographic which bought that album were a group of very culturally conservative people centered in middle America. Charlotte had to get to them first, but once she did, they lined up in droves to buy it - about 1 million sales can be attributed to this group alone. There are some problems marketing to this group. They tend to be rather insular, they are not known for cultural sophistication, and they really dont even like classical music to any measurable extent. They were smitten by Charlotte because of her age, and the contrast of her music against what the official Amazon reviewer called "the harsher foil of sexualized pop culture". In other words, Charlotte was Pure.
In the other thread, Dave said that he didnt think that this title was intended to make any personal implications about Hayley in the UK, and maybe he was right - insofar as the UK was concerned. I believe that this is exactly what they had in mind regarding Hayley, Pure, and America. At least the simplest and most obvious explanation of the massive initial budget leads me to believe that this group of people were what Decca had in mind to go along with the audience in the UK. To her credit, I dont think Hayley was ever really on board with this - and she limited herself to several vague comments about her "wholesome upbringing". It is in fact a tactic that only a record company could love. But it does explain why she sang Amazing Grace in her only real shot to a nationwide audience.
It didnt work for reasons that are also beyond the ken of this post - but I dont think it is that hard to determine why.
The ultimate problem is that it left her without a functioning plan B, and no plan (read no money) to develop one. Not only isnt there a strong market for classical music here sung by women but she also now must overcome the understandable reluctance of Walmart and Target and even Best Buy to stock her records. If Hayley were just starting out, I would probably be much more excited about Celtic Woman - it isnt a bad way to introduce her, but that is all that it is. There were many good ideas expressed in the thread above - but none of them really excite me because none of them in my opinion reach enough critical mass to overcome the legacies of the "Pure debacle"
Jon - who once had a college professor write on his paper "He could go on - and he did"
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Post by chungchungxavier on Apr 6, 2007 21:54:12 GMT
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Post by kimmie on Apr 6, 2007 22:15:22 GMT
Hayley will succeed in the US, I'm sure of that. I mean, how in the world can she not? Her voice is so gorgeous and she's so good-hearted. She's just an all around amazing person. I know she's not so well known in the US right now, but she will be. I know that her time will come. I live in the US and I tell ya, it didn't take me long to love her music. i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif If someone asks what music I listen to, Hayley is always on my list. Trust me, word will get around and one day people everywhere will know who Hayley is.  |
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Post by stevemacdonald on Apr 6, 2007 22:32:14 GMT
It should be said that Hayley has met with some measure of success in the States. She's worked with entertainment giants Disney, New Line Cinema and NBC. She's appeared on most of the networks at one time or another and has piloted a float in the Macy's parade.
I have a feeling she's known and appreciated by some of the elite gatekeepers who may have her under consideration for this film project or that. Getting to sing end-titles in big-budget movies is no mean feat and she's a proven talent in that department.
Hayley has not hit homeruns here yet, but she's shown convincingly that she's got a world-class serve.
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Post by milewalker on Apr 7, 2007 0:45:07 GMT
Hi Steve, I will say this - she has had a singular run of bad luck in the movies she has chosen to do music for.... Actually I agree with you to a large extent - I dont think that Disney did much for her, the other things didnt either apparantly, but they should have.... Look, IMHO the vocals on Celtic Treasure are among the finest in that genre I have ever heard. They are in fact among the finest in any genre I have ever heard. They are better overall than anything CC ever did - and this is coming from a person who still respects CC greatly - enough in fact that I am a moderator on her UK mail list. (Hi Simon!). They are as good as or better than anything I have heard coming from Sarah Brightman, and far better than Enya. Now - maybe I am misleading myself somehow, but I have to ask a simple question. Given precisely the exposure you outlined, how is it even possible that such a release can barely crack the Billboard 200 for one week? Doesnt that one fact suggest there may be a real problem here? Jon PS - I hear on the grapevine that the board of directors at Decca have wished Hayley a happy birthday. My understanding is that the vote was 5 to 4  PPS - I hope the rest of you are right. I have heard that, served medium rare with a bit of hot sauce, crow isnt half bad |
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Post by petertong on Apr 7, 2007 4:14:36 GMT
I have to agree with this. The problem is that most folks that potentially would enjoy her music simply have not heard of her. CW should help her immensely. Hayley's music is also "clean", which is something I immensely appreciate - given the "lowest common denominator" culture we live in. Judging from the reactions of my friends when listening to her (and they also love her voice) Hayley has a ton of people out there that will make her a success... her time will come. Until then its work work work... best regards, Peter Tong PS: It is possible also that to truly appreciate Hayley's voice that you may have to have better than average ears (ie pitch descrimination). So perhaps a larger proportion of Hayley's fans would be on outlying portion of the population. |
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Post by amarantine on Apr 7, 2007 6:59:43 GMT
I hope Hayley will get succes in US soon!!
I know she can do it!!
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Post by JOHN MCNEIL on Apr 7, 2007 17:46:00 GMT
I think that all of you are correct in why Hayley is not well known in the USA. First, she is not marketed right. Her tour with CW will help but she really needs to appear on shows where they spotlight new singers (like some of the morning shows). The other problem, as I see it, is that there are so many young singers in America who are into drugs and alcohol that that parents might be leary of a new singer.
Finally, I think she needs to tour the entire country on her own and not just the big cities. I live on a small Island with a winter population of about 400 and I have counted about 100 people who have heard Hayley though me, and gone and bought her CDs. I would love to see her in person but the closst ig city is 400 miles away and that makes it a huge expense.
I am just an old man,, who loves Hayley's talent, so maybe I am way off base, but I wanted to put my two cents in
John McNeil
Beaver Island, USA
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Post by fusilier23 on Apr 7, 2007 19:12:51 GMT
"He could go on and he did." Hmmm, sounds about right. I'm sure the powers that be at Decca knew exactly what they were doing when they decided where to put their money and where to concentrate their efforts to promote Hayley.
The fact is that the UK is a much easier place to cover doing multiple concerts multiple places, and, as a Kiwi, Hayley fits in somewhat more comfortably with the people of the UK.
I think the CC comparisons are to some degree a red herring. By the time Hayley released Pure and made her first public appearance in the US (I ought to know, for I was there) she was already 17 and physcially mature, and there were no attempts to market her as a wonder child. It was all about the voice, not about cuteness. They had to know that, or they would have rushed her into release here sooner.
Her first appearances here were not in what coastal elites derisively refer to as "flyover country"in the Midwest, but in New York and New Jersey, smack in the blue zone (though she did go out west during that time as well), and she ended 2004 not by going out west into this supposed culturally conservative area that Jon refers to, but by touring mostly the East Coast with the Boston Pops Orchestra (though I think that tour made some stops out west as well). The material on Pure and Odyssey is mostly of the "Easy Listening" variety, only with Cetlic Treasure has she started to get into the heart-tugging Celtic ballads that the gray brigade supposedly swoons over, and only in Europe have they released the heavier classical tracks like O Mio Babbion Caro and Laudate Dominum.
It should be added that when she did finally get her PBS special shot and released the local stations up here in NY/NJ had her in the studio during the pledge breaks together with some management type (not Steve Abbott) and they would barely let her speak! That tells me that they defintitely didn't want to go the CC route where you encourage cute-sounding lines and giggles. Let it also be added that they did include some shots of Christchurch and some interviews with Jill and Gerald on the DVD, but, praise God, they did not film the Westenra residence or show Hayley doing the dishes or making her bed or reading herself to sleep.
They started way too late with Hayley to go the same route as CC, and if they did in fact try to pursue that, or didn't change course sufficiently, of course it failed, you can't market a young woman of 17 the same way you can a girl of 12.
As someone, who, unlike Jon, really has no respect for CC, I wish Bedlam Managment would take a leaf from Andrea Bocelli's managment, who hands reporters leaflets before interviews saying that the artist's disability is off-limits, and start handing reporters leaflets that say "Miss Westenra is not like Charlotte Church, has not followed the same career path as Charlotte Church, lives a different lifestyle from Charlotte Church, barely knows Charlotte Church and does not like comparisons to Charlotte Church, and any mention of that other singer will be cause for immediate termination of this interview, revocation of all publication rights, and the interviewer never being granted access again." That might get the message across. Printing the message on a mace or a morning star and applying it with vigorous force to the posterior part of the reporter's cranium would be the next step.
I think the Celtic Woman thing may help Hayley here ultimately in terms of becoming known, but the fact is that none of the other girls have done solo concerts here, so there's a question in my mind.
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Post by petertong on Apr 7, 2007 19:26:45 GMT
I live in "flyover country", and am glad and thankful to not be counted among the so called "coastal elites" LOL... Frankly I think there are alot more folks in "flyover country" that will buy Hayley's CDs. Its exactly the fact that Hayley is not arrogant that will give her success here... Peter "Her first appearances here were not in what coastal elites derisively refer to as "flyover country"in the Midwest, but in New York and New Jersey, smack in the blue zone (though she did go out west during that time as well), and she ended 2004 not by going out west into this supposed culturally conservative area that Jon refers to, but by touring mostly the East Coast with the Boston Pops Orchestra (though I think that tour made some stops out west as well). |
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Post by fusilier23 on Apr 7, 2007 19:45:05 GMT
Agreed. It's precisely that arrogant attitude, typified by guys like Ted Rall (a so-called journalist), that makes me hate a lot of the people out here, and that makes Hayley so popular with ordinary folks.
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Post by milewalker on Apr 7, 2007 21:06:14 GMT
Fusilier
I specifically left some details regarding CC's success unstated above for the purpose of brevity. If I am right, CC's success in middle America was contingent on both her age and the perception of her "purity". You are absolutely correct that Hayley was already much older by the time she reached here. However, this does little more than explain one of the reasons the strategy failed. (I do think that it did have a couple of minor effect which can be measured - but that they actually complicate things more than help as it played out)
I think it was a failed strategy which was long ago abandoned. It wouldnt even be important now except to the extent to which it may shed light on the present.
However, your rebuttal leaves several key things unanswered. For example, if the US market wasnt in mind all along, why would they spend three times as much on Hayley's initial marketing as was spent on someone like say Katherine Jenkins? If it wasnt middle America they were trying to draw, what single demo anywhere in the world is big enough to fill that void? Finally, if America success isnt still considered critical why is she spending so much time here that her overal sales are actually suffering because of it?. Celtic Woman for example might - if everything works out right - bring in 25000 sales. I would venture a guess that Treasure will underperform by several times that in the UK alone simply because she is not there promoting it.
What I stated above is merely my working model. If there is another explanation for this, I am all ears.....In the meantime, I do not share your faith that Decca knows what they are doing - except of course for the preservation of Decca's own bottom line.
Jon
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Post by fusilier23 on Apr 7, 2007 21:25:55 GMT
(shrugs) Not sure it matters. Is there a further point to this discussion other than to second-guess Hayley and Decca's choices?
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Post by milewalker on Apr 7, 2007 22:40:07 GMT
Fusilier,
If I am correct that the performance of Celtic Treasure is suffering greatly because of an understandable reluctance of mainstream retailers to carry it, then it may matter a great deal.
If as I suspect it left Hayley with a significant shortfall, that is very much a present day issue, and may therefore matter a great deal.
It might also matter because it may have a direct effect on what she decides to do in the relatively near future (possibly for the balance of her Decca contract and more likely the period immediately thereafter) I must repeat that I am not second guessing Hayley here.
Having said this I will leave the question of current relevance to others......and to the future.
Jon
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Post by stevemacdonald on Apr 8, 2007 1:20:33 GMT
Wanna know the real reasons Hayley has not succeeded in the US? Here they are:
1. Her voice is too beautiful. America prefers rougher, grittier and more strident voices.
2. She's too caring and wonderful a human being. Our successful singers are typically out-of-control, self-absorbed, unconcerned and vain.
Problem #1 would be taken care of if she made a decent foray into country music where the purity of her voice would be offset by the required twanginess. Problem 2, however, will never go away.
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