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Post by postscript on Aug 30, 2008 12:15:00 GMT
Hi Libby.
Your post 369 on this where you quoted Bedlam's new web site.
1. I think the web site is well designed.
2. It proves the problem with web sites of this nature, something at which WHI is very good, keeping up-to-date.
Okay, it is new and still developing and the 'out-of-datedness' is minimal (so far) BUT it does add spice (or tarnishes) the whole if it isn't 'on the ball'. How does one do that? How does HWI's stalwart team do it? Surely a webmaster maintains a 'bring forward' diary so that a date flashes up with a reference, 'change [cite place when one originally writes] In early 2008 Hayley will to At the beginning of this year Hayley did'?
Thoughts, suggestions anyone?
Peter S.
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Post by postscript on Aug 30, 2008 12:48:49 GMT
Connections are connections, Larry. It is a matter of putting yourself about after which your product sells or doesn't. I don't think size or spend has anything to do with it.
Classic (now) publicity stunt. When they started filming 'Gone with the Wind' the movie moguls were horrified there wasn't any advance publicity for they were starting by burning down Atlanta, facades hastily fronting the 'everyday' working buildings, one of the centre pieces of the book and one of the most traumatic episodes in southern history. They needed to clear the set to start building. 'Publicity's all arranged', came the reply. 'I've not done a thing!'
The blaze was so great it could be seen fifty miles away, causing false alarms to the fire brigade. Next day the front pages were filled with the news they had started fiming 'Gone with the Wind'.
On the other hand you can spend thousands on a massive launch when the next day news of the Titanic breaks. Three weeks later they are still talking about the Titanic but no one has heard a dime's worth of your promotion!
Publicity/promotion is a complex world as much to chance as well-laid plans and funding always difficult to justify to any board.
Peter S.
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Post by postscript on Aug 30, 2008 12:56:09 GMT
I think you are right Libby in your determing 'popularity'. I think where things went pear-shaped is in the loss of 'Pocahuntas' through the antics of one they let fly out of the cuckoo's nest!
Had that gone as it should have done she'd be known across the States by now.
Peter S.
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Post by postscript on Aug 30, 2008 13:16:24 GMT
Hi Jon, I think it was Grant who once said that Hayley could sing the telephone directory, and it would be beautiful! I think that is what I am trying to say. Martin Unless it is a similar circumstance I missed I think it is I who can claim that quote. It was in a context of defining songs I could hear from anyone (almost) and people (Hayley I think was the only one in my mind) whom I would buy regardless of what they sang. Peter S. |
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Post by milewalker on Aug 30, 2008 21:20:28 GMT
Hi Peter,
I am not sure I would want to make too many assumptions about what would have happened regarding Listen to the Wind. It might have gotten an acadamy award nod. It might have been performed at the ceremony. But is is also possible that none of these things would have happened. One problem is that it was another artsy flick - which wasnt going to be a big draw at the box office, and that would tend to diminish the effect the song would have had for Hayley even had it been given a better shot.
I dont think that in most cases a film song like that would give an artist more than some boost in the industry's perception of her "artistic chops" unless it actually won best song -though there are always exceptions. Steve's mention of a song from a "Blockbuster" is more apt to propel an artist into major fame, though it does beg the question of how one knows that ahead of time. One doesnt - but what you can identify pretty easily are movies with large production budgets - perhaps one of three of which will become a "blockbuster". The side benefit of this is that sometimes a song from a "failed blockbuster" will still perform well on its own. Ideally of course, you want to see both art and profile in the film featuring your song. But if I had to pick one or the other - and assuming of course that raising my own profile was the goal - I would pick profile every time.
Jon
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Post by milewalker on Aug 31, 2008 3:54:00 GMT
! Publicity/promotion is a complex world as much to chance as well-laid plans and funding always difficult to justify to any board. . Hello again Peter, This is a very important point in its own right. I have often been tempted to criticize her management because they have done so little with so much talent, but I have always held my tongue (or rather, my fingers  ) This is simply because luck plays such a big role. In the end, they had a plan - in fact more than one - and in reality if I might have tried something a bit differently at one point or another, they werent bad plans. They just didnt work. Which brings me to something Larry said above. Hayley has received almost no help from her record company to do promotion in the US - probably as a reaction to the disappointing performance of Pure in this country. Lacking the backing, there is really not a lot Bedlam can do for her here except knock on doors - which I am sure they are doing. Someone got her a gig to perform for the 4th of July in Washington - and it is a pretty good bet that Decca had nothing to do with it. Someone got her involved with Celtic Woman, and I am pretty sure Decca didnt have much to do with that either. I am also trying to not be over critical of Decca at this point - they have different divisions, and the people who run them are responsible for different bottom lines. It is therefore entirely possible that the record company in the UK has very different perspective on things than they do in the US. I may be reading more into a couple of quotes from Hayley in recent interviews than is merited - but when she was in (I think) Italy before the release of Celtic Treasure, she did hint that the US was going on the back burner, and that Japan had moved up. In another interview shortly before she left for Japan, she also suggested that the US was trying to push her towards pop - "that just isnt me" she said. If I am interpreting this correctly, Hayley and the US division of her record company are (or were at the time) on different pages. If I have time this weekend I will try to find the videos where this came up. The bottom line is that Bedlam can only aggressively promote her where the cash is still flowing. It would be ideal if Hayley, her management company, and all of the divisions of her record company were all on the same page - I suspect this actually isnt the case with most performers most of the time. Jon |
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Post by stuartj on Aug 31, 2008 12:35:51 GMT
I still think that people are expecting too much too soon and that Hayley's management/record company are doing well. I just do not believe that one event -- Oprah, a blockbuster sound track even -- will suddenly propel Hayley to star status in the US. I think it will happen gradually and slowly as a result of many smaller events. How come it was Hayley at the PBS thing at the Capitol? It is Hayley on that game thing, it is Hayley on the soundtrack of The Merchant of Venice -- sure that's no blockbuster, but it won't be forgotten next month either. That film will keep playing and word-of-mouth, which can start very slowly, will eventually start to accelerate. It is Hayley on several other sound tracks too, and I think her management is doing fine. Waiting until she matures a bit and a definite path has been mapped out is not a bad idea either. I see that her now ageing albums are higher on the Amazon best sellers list than the newer albums from Kathy Jenkins and Russell Watson. I'm not sure what this means, except that it is based on recent sales and is presumably US oriented. It seems that her managment/record company want to squeeze everything out of those older songs, and if they are still selling and she is still getting the concerts through singing them, why not? She seems to be getting more positive press reports in the UK too, and the likes of her duet with Jonathan is increasing her profile in the UK. Let her build a bit more in the UK before making an all-out assault on the US. A musician friend thinks that her tour with Dave Dobbyn and the Japanese album are aimed, to some extent, at attempting to get some more younger people into her fan base. Maybe, but all these things need to be done carefully and slowly. As someone said earlier, the greater the effort and promotion put in, the greater the damage if the attempt fails. |
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Post by stevemacdonald on Aug 31, 2008 17:16:06 GMT
... I just do not believe that one event -- Oprah, a blockbuster sound track even -- will suddenly propel Hayley to star status in the US. I think it will happen gradually and slowly as a result of many smaller events. How come it was Hayley at the PBS thing at the Capitol? It is Hayley on that game thing, it is Hayley on the soundtrack of The Merchant of Venice -- sure that's no blockbuster, but it won't be forgotten next month either. That film will keep playing and word-of-mouth, which can start very slowly, will eventually start to accelerate. It is Hayley on several other sound tracks too, and I think her management is doing fine.... . Stuart, she needs a well-placed song in a hit movie. Too bad "Bridal Ballad" was heard over the closing credits of MOV (while people were probably scrambling to leave) instead of during the movie itself where its impact would have been phenomenal. Get Hayley a theme song like Celine had in Titanic and it's a whole 'nother story. Hayley's prior work in soundtracks is a very nice start, but when she lands a film by Spielberg (or one of his peers) she will have fully arrived. |
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Post by martindn on Aug 31, 2008 22:20:52 GMT
Hi Jon, I think it was Grant who once said that Hayley could sing the telephone directory, and it would be beautiful! I think that is what I am trying to say. Martin Unless it is a similar circumstance I missed I think it is I who can claim that quote. It was in a context of defining songs I could hear from anyone (almost) and people (Hayley I think was the only one in my mind) whom I would buy regardless of what they sang. Peter S. Hi Peter, Well, I was relying on my notoriously unreliable memory, so if it is you I was quoting, and it probably was, I apologise for misattributing it. Best Wishes, Martin |
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Post by stuartj on Sept 1, 2008 0:49:14 GMT
Stuart, she needs a well-placed song in a hit movie. Too bad "Bridal Ballad" was heard over the closing credits of MOV (while people were probably scrambling to leave) instead of during the movie itself where its impact would have been phenomenal. Get Hayley a theme song like Celine had in Titanic and it's a whole 'nother story. Hayley's prior work in soundtracks is a very nice start, but when she lands a film by Spielberg (or one of his peers) she will have fully arrived. Steve, What you say is correct, although I'm not sure even a better placed song in MOV would have had phenomenal impact. My point is that although a single event -- being on Oprah, or the theme on a blockbuster -- may have great effect, it may be unrealistic to expect such an event in the meantime. I believe that Hayley can become, and may be on the way to becoming a big star in the US, but this may take time. I'm suggesting that she can do it by gradually increasing her "name recognition" and slowly but surely becoming better known. Does getting on Oprah really make people big stars, or do you have to already be a household name before you get on Oprah? And similarly with the Speilburg movie. I wasn't even thinking of people watching the movie hearing Hayley on MOV, but of those who check out soundtracks coming across her name in the IMdB or in an Amazon listing and thinking something like, "where have I seen that name before", and then remembering that she was on the PBS thing, or with Celtic woman, etc. I'm thinking of her gradually building "name recognition" and from there perhaps having a reasonably successful album in the US, and so on. I don't really see Hayley as an "Oprah" type personality, or even a blockbuster type movie singer. Singing at the olympic games like Sarah Brightman, seems more realistic. She needs to be marketed as "up-market" pop, if that makes any sense. It is difficult for me to see Hayley as ever being as commercial as Celine Dion. Brightman, Groban, perhaps Striesand are the type of examples I think Hayley should look at. An amusing aside is that on one of the YouTube videos of Hayley and Jonathan's duet of Amigos Para Siempre where the names of the singers haven't been posted at the top, someone has commented, "Love Sarah's performance!" The video is amateur and the singers features aren't visible in it, and it seems the person has mistaken Hayley for Sarah Brightman. |
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Post by milewalker on Sept 1, 2008 1:34:42 GMT
Hi Stuart,
The numbers on Amazon dont mean much of anything at that level - I suspect you are talking about a few sales a day. It is probably true that Hayley is doing slightly better there than KJ - who has no American presense at all that I can sense. I am surprised Watson isnt a little higher. However, no one is arguing that Hayley doesnt have "some" presence in the US marketplace.
Word of mouth might work better in other places, but I am unaware of anyone who ever became a national star in the US on that basis. The reason it doesnt work very well here is once again the size of the country, and as Chantelle very astutely noted above, the sub cultural differences between regions. Hayley might do a local television show and concert in Chicago. Illinois - and locally a few people there might well talk about how good she is. But there is almost no chance that the word would ever spread to Los Angeles, California. In fact, there is almost no chance it would spread to Peoria, Illinois.
National fame in the US means successful exposure on national media of some kind - which creates the perception of overnight success even if sometimes the artist was around years before hand. If word of mouth has an effect here is is because some kind of major event got people talking about you in all of these different regions at the same time.
Charlotte Church was hit in the US within a few months of her introduction to the UK. Sarah Brightman was around for years in the UK, but hit it big as a crossover performer at almost the same time in the UK and the US by way of POTO. Enya was around for years, via Clannad and as a strugling singer songwriter - but went 4 times platinum in the US with Watermark - her first international release.
I picked those three names because they are the top three woman in this US history of "Crossover" (I know I am broadening the definition to include Enya). Word of mouth may indeed have played a secondary role in all of these cases, but had nothing to do with their becoming famous in the first place.
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One other item offerred as food for thought:. A few years ago Simon Cowell made a widely reported observation that "12 is the new 20". While I dont care for his personality, I think he may be on to something - particularly with regard to women. If you check out recent general US trends in music, I believe you will find that Hayley at 21 is already "middle-aged" when viewed as a potential female breakout artist.
Following is a short list of female US recording stars of the past 10 years or so, along with the age in which their "media buzz" began.
Britney 16, Christina Aguilera 17, Mandy Moore 15, Miley Cyrus 14, Charlotte 13, Joss Stone 16, Alanis Morisette 20, Avril Lavigne 17, Beyonce Knowles 16, Jessica Simpson 19, Norah Jones 22, Carrie Underwood 22, Kelly Clarkson 23.
This isnt intended to be scientific - and I am not sure if the effect would hold at the "second level" of stardom - but there is enough to it that a major write up noted Kelly Clarkson because she was older than is normally the case. In most of life, being 21 would still be considered very young. But in much the same way that a 21 year old golfer is much "younger" than a 21 year old gymnast, I simply dont see Hayley's age as an asset at this point.
Jon
Jon
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Post by milewalker on Sept 1, 2008 3:11:22 GMT
I believe that Hayley can become, and may be on the way to becoming a big star in the US, but this may take time. I'm suggesting that she can do it by gradually increasing her "name recognition" and slowly but surely becoming better known. Stuart, you posted this while my previous post was in editing I am not saying your theory wont work, but..... I dont know of any singer (actors are a different beast entirely) who ever achieved major stardom in the US in this fashion. The closest person I can think of is Sissell, who finally reached 100,000 sales of an album here after 20 years. To be fair, she wasnt really trying..... A more typical path to fame works on connections. You start out by playing local gigs, where you meet people who give you the chance to do better gigs where you make bigger and better connections. At some point, maybe you become the opening act for a bigger name - like Hayley and Il Divo. Hopefully this in turn might get you some concerts of your own, and maybe a record contract. If you are lucky, you will have impressed someone at each level who has connections of their own to get you to the next. Someone like Oprah might be the highest connection in that chain. (A side note: Hayley began her career here with a series of national appearances. When she opened for Il Divo it was already clearly a significant step down - perhaps her low point here. Celtic Woman, because she was co-equal or maybe of higher rank than the others was a step up. Somewhere in this, you can see her actual level here in the "chain of connections" at least as of a year ago). It is true that overnight successes usually have a few years of work behind them - even Britney cut her chops on the Mickey Mouse club before she hit it big. But in virtually all cases, while major stardom doesnt rest with the influence of any one person, it does result as the collective influence of many people. When it does happen it usually happens very quickly - normally in a matter of months you go from very limited name exposure to becoming a household name. Word of mouth doesnt hurt of course - but which words in the right mouths are what makes the difference. It isnt the buzz on the street - it is the buzz in the media which must reach critical mass. Jon PS - Hayley's credential are more than adequate for landing a song in a "blockbuster". The most unfortunate thing about what happened to Listen to the Wind may not be the direct effect that song would have had on her career. I suspect if the song had gotten more exposure, she might already have done one. Success at one level normally means a chance at the next, but in this case, the connections broke down. |
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Post by Richard on Sept 1, 2008 7:53:06 GMT
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Dave
Administrator
HWI Admin
Posts: 7,700
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Post by Dave on Sept 1, 2008 14:38:46 GMT
Following is a short list of female US recording stars of the past 10 years or so, along with the age in which their "media buzz" began. Britney 16, Christina Aguilera 17, Mandy Moore 15, Miley Cyrus 14, Charlotte 13, Joss Stone 16, Alanis Morisette 20, Avril Lavigne 17, Beyonce Knowles 16, Jessica Simpson 19, Norah Jones 22, Carrie Underwood 22, Kelly Clarkson 23. ...I simply dont see Hayley's age as an asset at this point. Hi Jon, I'm not disagreeing you but it's fair to mention Leona Lewis I think, especially as she is the UK's 'Kelly Clarkson' and made the big US breakthrough this year. She is 23, has sold over a million albums in under 5 months in the US and is still top 20. ...The closest person I can think of is Sissell, who finally reached 100,000 sales of an album here after 20 years. To be fair, she wasnt really trying..... Again I'm not disagreeing but it's fair to point out that Pure certainly sold over 100,000 copies in the US, I estimate that it could be anywhere between 100,000 and 200,000, probably closer to the latter. Of course, 250,000 were initially shipped to stores and many of these were never sold. In the absence of that blockbuster movie theme or Oprah, I've thought for a few years that Hayley is likely to tick away in the background in the US market for many years to come, as a niche performer (if that's the right word). She's certainly been one of the top half dozen classical crossover artists and the no. 2 female crossover singer after Sarah Brightman, over the last few years. Celtic Treasure is still in the Crossover Chart (at #19) after 74 weeks and it's been selling more than in the UK for most of this year, mostly in the range 300 to 600 a week. Hayley is likely to carry on doing this for many years I think, as long as Sissel I suspect. Meanwhile, we can hope for Oprah, that blockbuster movie or the opening ceremony for the 2012 Olympics in London. But the bottom line is, as I think you have been saying, there is no sure-fire way for Hayley (or any other foreigner) to "make it big" in the US (though winning a big TV reality show in a major Country certainly helps). Whether or not Hayley can "succeed" in the US is a different question, as what constitutes success depends on what the the aims are (after Pure). Dave |
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Post by milewalker on Sept 1, 2008 18:04:36 GMT
Hi Dave, Thanks for the response! If I may clarify a few things..... The above was primarily in response to Stuarts assertion that Hayley will likely succeed here simply by a process of slow growth. Word of mouth will indeed get her some fans here - but in my opinion will not allow her to as you say "make it big", on the basis of its strength alone. The reason I mentioned Sissell above is that her sales really were almost entirely word of mouth which means that she provides some insight into the maximum potential that force has to offer. Word of mouth is responsible for a much smaller percentage of the sales of Pure - which was after all marketed fairly heavily here at first. You are correct that this depends in part on how we define "success". While I know it is unsettling to people, when I am in "analytic mode" I view things which are sold at a market as I would any other product. The general rule of success which applies is that the product function as it is advertised. Hayley was advertised here as a star in the making - which means that in her case I would expect at least one platinum release and achieving gold more often than not. Whether or not this is "making it big" depends on the company you are keeping - an artist like Celine is far above that, and so is Enya, and Sarah is (was) at or slightly above that level. The odds are now much less that Hayley will attain that level. This also means as an aside that she really isnt all that "successful" in the UK either As I stated elsewhere, she is a "second tier" star there. I think that the size of your peak fanbase is one of the biggest factors in how long you are able to "carry on" - and to this point, Hayley is doing OK, but not thriving. I dont think she is quite as strong as Sissell was at a comparable point in their career, though the point is arguable. The problem of her failing to meet the expectations game isnt limited to America. It is just that the shortfall is more obvious here. Her next contract would almost certainly not be as big as this one is under the best of circumstances, but how much not meeting expectations affects it, (if it does) will determine how many resources she has to "tick away" at America in the future. I know that in a sense it isnt entirely fair to Hayley to expect her to meet someone else's goal - but that is unfortunately a part of how the game is played, and she signed on to play that game the moment she signed that rather extrordinary contract. She probably didnt know that at the time. As I stated above, the list of singers was not intended to be scientific. I thought about Leona as I was laying in bed (that sounds bad dont tell my wife) but was too lazy to get up at 4 AM and edit the post. I am sure there are a number of people I didnt include on both sides - for example, had I moved the date back two years, a young woman by the name of LeAnn Rimes would have appeared, who was 13. Actually, since you brought up Leona, I dont think that merely being a foreigner is a major obstacle in and of itself. - though it may be an additional hurdle among many. There is no "sure fire" way if you are American either. Just ask Kelly Sweet. Jon PS Richard - that is actually one of the best ideas which has occurred on this thread. Who would be willing to join me? PPS Stuart - at some point she needs to bring in younger fans regardless of "risk". I agree that it is better done gradually. She is growing in the US - at the rate she is growing I will be about 77 when she gets her first platinum certificate |
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) This is simply because luck plays such a big role. In the end, they had a plan - in fact more than one - and in reality if I might have tried something a bit differently at one point or another, they werent bad plans. They just didnt work.
