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Post by roger on Dec 25, 2006 22:37:03 GMT
In the past, a number of people have said that Hayley's voice lacks emotion, either in a particular song or on a particular album. The most recent example being on the Was Odyssey disappointing? thread. I have avoided the topic up to now but I will say that, for me, no it doesn't lack emotion. For me, Hayley's voice always conveys more emotion than any other singer. Yes, I admit I am biased but it is partly because of the emotion that I came to admire her so much in the first place. My reason for starting this thread is to put a simple question which I hope will lead to further general discussion: It is possible that, whether or not emotion is discernible in the human voice is not only down to the ability of the performer, but equally to the ability of the listener to detect it? I am sure we all hear things differently. I believe the ability to "feel" the emotion varies from one listener to another and we will not always agree on which singer produces that emotion in the first place. Roger |
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Post by mariannek on Dec 25, 2006 22:53:45 GMT
In the past, a number of people have said that Hayley's voice lacks emotion, either in a particular song or on a particular album. The most recent example being on the Was Odyssey disappointing? thread. I have avoided the topic up to now but I will say that, for me, no it doesn't lack emotion. For me, Hayley's voice always conveys more emotion than any other singer. Yes, I admit I am biased but it is partly because of the emotion that I came to admire her so much in the first place. My reason for starting this thread is to put a simple question which I hope will lead to further general discussion: It is possible that, whether or not emotion is discernible in the human voice is not only down to the ability of the performer, but equally to the ability of the listener to detect it? I am sure we all hear things differently. I believe the ability to "feel" the emotion varies from one listener to another and we will not always agree on which singer produces that emotion in the first place. Roger Hi, Roger absolutely my sentiments... there is nothing I can think of to add !!!  I am always in wonder of her voice, and I am sure it has to do with her ability to sing with all the emotions she puts into the lyrics as well as the music !!! Of course some songs are more emotive than others, and when watching Hayley live she comes alive emotionally even more so...particularly so for me !!! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifNow I have added !!!  Love, Marianne  |
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Post by roger on Dec 25, 2006 23:02:53 GMT
Hi Marianne, Certainly those of us who have been fortunate enough to see Hayley live are at an advantage. Feeling the emotion during a concert makes it easier to perceive it when we come home and listen to her CDs. I accept that some of the emotion is conveyed by her facial expression but, at lest for me, it is definitely present in her voice. I hope to become emotional again very soon!  Roger |
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Post by Oksana on Dec 25, 2006 23:32:22 GMT
Hi Roger,
Yes, I'm one of those people who have complained about lack of emotion, but I guess it kind of comes down to how you best feel emotion. Just like some people are auditory learners, while others are visual; there's some people who have to see a video to feel the emotion in a singer's voice. I've found this to be true for myself.
I'll just give you some examples from the Christmas Presence concert of how visuals can help you feel the songs better:
1. The way she looks around while singing the first verse of O Holy Night. It looks as if she is surveying the night landscape.
2. The delighted smile with which she sings "goodies" in the Christmas Song. Just like a little kid waiting for their Christmas presents.
3. The little thing she does with her hand when she sings "treetops glisten," to illustrate sparkly winter snow.
Obviously, there were also little changes in her voice to complement the actions, but I wouldn't have caught these nuances if I hadn't been watching the video.
Oksy
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Post by gerrit on Dec 25, 2006 23:40:16 GMT
Hi Roger, Thank you for starting this thread! I can see the point that you make that emotion is not just down to the ability of the performer, but also in the ability of the listener to detect it. As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. With a variation on this theme, one could also say that emotion is in the ear of the listener .... Yet, I wonder if that's all that there is to this. One song that currently holds a very high level of personal emotional sentiments to me is Katherine Jenkins' rendition of "Do Not Stand At My Grave And Weep". It is on Living A Dream, which was released at a time my Dad was critically ill in hospital in 2005. He survived at that time, but just recently died after a year of many physical problems, and so I stood at his grave just recently. Therefore this song has gained an added emotional depth for me, in this specific performance by Katherine. There is therefore a very subjective element in me being emotionally touched by this song. And of course, emotion is a subjective experience - whereas technical perfection can be measured much more objectively. But, without being able to pinpoint it, I think there is also an objective side to being able to ascribe emotion to a voice. When Hayley first came on the scene, the overriding experience was the extraordinary purity of her voice - that in itself moved a lot of people. When Yulia first came on the scene, many reports highlighted the fact that many people were moved to tears by her voice - that was a point that was mentioned quite consistently. It would appear that Yulia's voice affected people in that way much more than Hayley did. So it would appear that Yulia's voice had some intrinsic emotional character that was not present in Hayley's voice. And to be honest, I did also experience that - on Yulia's first album (Into The West) there were more songs that had an emotional impact on me than there were on any of Hayley's albums. My thinking on this hasn't crystallised quite yet - so I hope that more people will put in a few thoughts. There remains the debatable point though that many of the fully trained (mezzo) sopranos have very seldomly managed to generate any emotion in me, apart from the odd song or so. I do like Renée Fleming's version of Song to the Moon from Dvorak - then again, I like that song as it is. It's a thought that has come to my mind more and more in recent times - could i be that such professionals are trained to such a degree of perfection, that their voice become devoid of (or are stripped of) emotion - or is this once again just a personal matter  . Sorry for rambling on for so long - but some of these thoughts have been in my mind for quite a while. Gerrit |
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Post by roger on Dec 25, 2006 23:51:39 GMT
...could i be that such professionals are trained to such a degree of perfection, that their voice become devoid of (or are stripped of) emotion - or is this once again just a personal matter . Gerrit Hi Gerrit, While I accept that could be a personal matter, I think it is a very valid point. It partly explains why I generally prefer a fairly natural voice to a fully trained one. Of course, your other point concerns songs being associated (by the listener) to personal situations or memories in their own lives. This undoubtedly affects the way we hear a particular song and can create its own emotion. If time permits over the next few days, I will listen to Yulia's 'Into the West', and 'Do Not Stand At My Grave and Weep' by Katherine, and a selection of Hayley's. I will comment further when I have done so. Until then, you have certainly given me food for thought! Roger |
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Post by roger on Dec 25, 2006 23:55:46 GMT
Hi Oksy,
You have certainly given some fine examples of how seeing a performance can increase the emotion we detect in Hayley's voice. It suggests that watching a video can be just as effective in that way as seeing her live.
I also suspect that getting to know the singer as a person can help, even if you haven't met her in person. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?
Roger
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Post by mariannek on Dec 26, 2006 7:49:02 GMT
Hi Oksy, You have certainly given some fine examples of how seeing a performance can increase the emotion we detect in Hayley's voice. It suggests that watching a video can be just as effective in that way as seeing her live. I also suspect that getting to know the singer as a person can help, even if you haven't met her in person. Does anyone have any thoughts on that? Roger Hi Roger, I am in danger here of repeating myself, but I do want to post another thought on the subject. If you don't mind !! When I listen to Hayley sing I am absolutely attentive to her voice !!! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifMy soul and my heart and body are thoroughly involved, such is the effect her voice has on me !!!  My soul is in awe of her God-given voice...so outstandingly pure !!! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifMy heart is uplifted by her putting all of her soul into her singing !!! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif My body responds with goosebumps and teary eyes !!!  When I first heard and watched her perform I was so impacted emotionally my legs wouldn't stop trembling for quite some time !!!  When coming face to face with her afterwards I could hardly find any words to speak, but she was just so appreciative of my comments that I still remember a year later how wonderful it felt to have met her in person !!! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifWell, she surely affects all of my being and I am absolutely delighted and thankful to be so emotionally affected by such a wonderful and innocent person who shares her gift so admirably with us !!! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifLove, Marianne |
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Post by stevemacdonald on Dec 26, 2006 10:30:23 GMT
Maybe I'm the odd man out, but I don't particularly enjoy singing in which the emotions all hang out. There's something to be said for the dignity of the singer in maintaining a collected bearing.
Some vocalists are adept at acting the emotional points of a song. The emotions are falsified even though they may sound sincere to the listener. I can always tell when this is the case, especially with a workhorse like 'O Mio Babbino Caro'.
I prefer Hayley's honesty in not putting false emotion into her songs. She lets the lyrics speak for themselves, which in turn allows me-the-listener to be sincerely moved by the unparalled beauty of her voice and not feel that my emotional buttons were pushed.
There is plenty of raw emotion embedded in some of Hayley's song lyrics. All credit to her for not playing it to the hilt. That's confidence!
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Dave
Administrator
HWI Admin
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Post by Dave on Dec 26, 2006 11:20:22 GMT
Hi Steve and everyone, Thank you for what I find is a refreshing perspective on this and I agree with you; I've expressed that point of view many times in the past but in different ways. I've also said that it's the emotion induced in the listener that really matters at the end of the day - and we all perceive music differently. We also perceive music differently at different times, not only according to our mood but for many other reasons some of which have been mentioned by others in this thread. Perhaps emotion is the wrong word here; interpretation might be a better word to use because that does not necessarily imply overt emotion - which is in itself an emotive word! I can think of plenty of occasions and songs when a singer should not be trying to sound 'emotional' and in some cases it might even be wrong for the song, time or place. Unfortunately for me, many (yes, many) well known singers go for the "emotion" thing all the time and some of them overdo it. Always "belting out" the climaxes of songs is but one example of this. Some singers should perhaps look up the meaning of the word "subtlety" and occasionally use a bit of it in their performances! If I have any suspicion that a singer is overcooking it, I mentally and emotionally switch off immediately. In some cases, I suspect that 'over acting' is a cover for technical deficiencies and that is one charge that is unlikely to be levelled at Hayley. Yes, interpretation is a better word, I think. And Hayley is getting better and better at it, as evidenced, I think, by Christmas Presence. As for Odyssey (in the thread mentioned by Roger), well I listen to the original UK edition when I am in the mood for it (as with most other music) and when I do, it can induce as much emotion in me as any other album I have ever listened to... bar none (including Pure). Cheers, Dave |
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Post by Richard on Dec 26, 2006 11:23:23 GMT
Hello everybody!  This is a very interesting discussion. Like Roger, I was immediately attracted to Hayley by the purity and clarity of her voice when I first heard her on a listening post in Borders. I saw her in concert for the first time only twelve days later, and found myself captivated by the visual aspect of her presentation, as well as her stunning voice. For me, Hayley expresses her emotions naturally and very effectively through the combination of sound and vision, and she doesn't overact, as Steve said. I've seen and met Hayley fifteen times so I'm familiar with her style of presentation, and I know her quite well as a person, both on and off stage. This probably gives me an advantage over those who may only have heard her on CD, because I can always picture her in my mind when I listen to her albums. Hayley gets the emotion just right for me, but that's only my opinion, of course! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifBest Wishes for 2007, Richard  |
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Post by grant on Dec 26, 2006 12:53:33 GMT
Having just returned from Christmas away with friends and discovered I had some 60 posts to view, I've read this whole thread in one go.
Most of what I feel has already been said, I guess because most of us, in one way or another feel the same about Hayley; what she sings and how she sings it.
I fell in love with Hayley's voice some time before I ever saw her sing, but even then, particularly with Hine and Pokarekare Ana, her singing would send shivers down my spine.
Hayley's emotion appears very natural to me, almost as though we are actually feeling the same emotion that Hayley feels as she sings a particular song.
Even off stage Hayley's emotion seems natural whether she is talking to someone about a UNICEF project (as she did with me at our third meeting), or listening to a tale told by someone having a CD signed.
Other than that I agree we all 'hear' things in a particular way, especially if the words have a special meaning or make us think of a special person in our lives. For me, Hayley is one of those people, so listening to/watching her sing is doubly special!
Grant
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Post by nicola on Dec 26, 2006 19:33:06 GMT
I am one of the people that says Hayley's voice lacks emotion on all of her albums so far. Although, whenever I see her live, she performs more emotively for me, but that may be because of the extra sense of visual rather than just audio.
Hayley's voice never changes between songs (on the same album, obviously, her voice is very different between albums!) One minute she could be singing O Mio Babbino Caro, then she could sing the shopping list and it would sound the same.
That's not to say, of course, that she cannot draw emotion from the listener. It all depends on the kind of listener she has.
I'm the kind of listener that wants to hear the emotion behind the lyrics, not over act, sob, laugh etc, just undertone enough so you know it's there. Because of my empathetic nature if I hear the singer become sad, or remorseful, it moves me more than it would have if just plain delivery.
I have often said Odyssey is background music. It's because she can't draw me into the song. Hayley sings slow pieces with light classical music. The arrangements aren't particularly moving (exception being 'She Moved Through The Fair') and it just becomes bland to listen to. I simply do not believe what she is singing. 'Both Sides Now' and 'Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again' are prime examples of this.
Emotional songs will always affect me more than any other types. It's the emotional performances I remember. Christina Aguilera is particularly fantastic at emotive performances. Listen to her songs 'I'm Ok' and 'Hurt' and you will see what I mean.
But to make a more general argument about this and going back to where I originally branched off, it depends what the listener is looking for in the song. I've told you what I look for, but I imagine for others they find emotion by transcending themselves into the lyrics, rather than the singer doing it for them. If the song is performed in a unfeeling way, the song becomes open for anyone who wants to interpret themselves. Fair enough. I am in this way inclined with Literature and Poetry. But not when it comes to vocals in music. 'Hurt' by Christina Aguilera always makes my eyes stream - and I haven't even lost anyone close to me, it's just the pure emotion that she is able to convey.
Sarah Brightman's 'Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again' will always be higher in my esteem because it's performed with the emotion that the lyrics convey, rather than Hayley's rendition, which is sedated.
It might be that Hayley sings these songs with deep meaning, without having experienced them in her life yet, but I don't think it makes a difference. She simply doesn't perform in that way. That's fair enough. In Hayley's case, and I have said this before, she doesn't need to sing this way, as her purity and clarity is open enough to draw listeners. I would love to hear her sing this way though, instead of the same sound time and time again. Her albums become monotonous as a result of Hayley robotically singing the notes with perfect tecnhnicality.
For me, I'm not asking for a west end performer, I just want to hear that the performer means what they are singing, otherwise the song loses something.
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Post by nicola on Dec 26, 2006 19:37:25 GMT
I just read my post through and it comes across very critical of Hayley. I'm only talking about her emotive performance. It's only one aspect of everything that is Hayley Westenra where most things tend to be top notch. |
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Steve H
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HWI Management Team / Official Site Photographer & Videographer
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Post by Steve H on Dec 26, 2006 20:59:49 GMT
I am one of the people that says Hayley's voice lacks emotion on all of her albums so far. Hi Nicola, One of the wonderful things about human beings is that we are all different, we all have our own views about most things and there will always be differences in opinions. I fear that on a forum dedicated to the support and furtherance of Hayley's career there will not be many that agree with you on this one, including me. But I do respect your right to your own opinion, I have just listened to Sarah's version of 'Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again' and I do like it, but I must admit to finding no more or less emotion in it than Hayley's version, and Hayley sang hers when she was 13. Best Wishes for 2007 Nicola, Steve H |
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