Live 8 - hypocrisy?

[gareth]

Hmmmm,

It's with some reluctance I am raising this topic - but, I have been having some uneasy feelings about the whole Live 8 concert concept.

Sure - all artists in the Live 8 concerts donate their performance - but what purpose is furthered if a performer like Paul McCartney (career earnings some 800 million dollars) donates his time to perform in one of the Live 8 concerts. Who needs 800 million dollars in a life time? I earn about 30 thousand dollars a year - and can easily survive of that (even after the tax man has taken nearly half of it).

I am afraid a little that this live 8 concept, which is designed to put pressure on the politicians participating in the G8 top, is ignoring some of the real issues of life. Namely, the Western lifestyle, which is prepared to fork out millions for its stars (be they musical stars, or sports stars), and then enthusiastically embrace a lIve 8 concertc concept which needn't cost them a penny.

I would tend to say, nobody needs to earn more than their basic living requirements, and a Western world that is prepared to fork out millions to support its stars should be prepared fork out more than that to support its neighbours in Africa.

I think that admissions to pop and rock concerts and sports events like Wimbledon, the world's major Golf tournaments, Formula 1 car racing, major soccer tournaments and numerous fighting sports tournaments, should be surcharged with a poverty tax of at least 100% - the proceeds going to relieve famine an poverty. I think sport stars in the western world (especially tennis, golf, soccer, car racing and fighting) are disgustingly overpaid - and as long as that continues, the Western world's efforts to show how much they care about the poor Africans does have more than a semblance of hypocrisy about it. I also read that the musical stars appearing in the London concert, have earned between them 5 billion dollars. And I ask myself, why should mortal human beings lay claim on such large sums.

I am posting this message, because I am confused. What are we going to do next week, when the concerts are past - and we all turn to our daily chores? Is anyting really going to change?

Somehow, I doubt it - but I would like to have other people's opinions about this.

Gerrit

[roger]

From time to time, there is a tidal wave of emotion around the world which leads to many people doing what they believe is right for the benefit of those less fortunate than themselves. Regretably, such emotion is usually only stimulated by acts of terrorism or natural disasters. Occasionally though, they can be stimulated by one man's deliberate, perhaps desperate, attempt to make the world sit up and take notice.

Such is the occasion tomorrow and, with approximately six billion people alive today, most of whom must surely be aware of the Live 8 concerts, even a small proportion of them actually doing something constructive as a result could make a significant difference to the quality of people's lives.

Sir Bob Geldof is that man and, with the support of so many artists who are giving their time, their effort and their talent freely, this really could prove extremely beneficial. At least he has the foresite, the determination and the enormous skill needed to organise an event such as this.

The very best of luck to him, I say, and to everyone taking part. It was never meant to be a money-making venture but, those who are in a position to make donations to an appropriate charity will surely do so. And those who wish to write to their MP to demand that their government make some significant and positive headway towards writing off the Third World National Debt will hopefully be inspired to do so. Meanwhile, may the world enjoy the day.

To take up your question, Gerrit, as to whether or not there is an element of hypocricy about all this, the answer is surely, "YES". However, the sums earned by singers, sports stars and so on, is not the issue. Many goverments around the world have been making promises concerning the poverty in Africa for as long as I can remember but which of them has done enough to make any REAL difference? Thereby lies the hypocricy.

Below is one verse from a song called 'Living Free' which I wrote in 1986. The last half of the verse suddenly becomes meaningfull all over again:

Primeval forests once so tall,
Where every minute , trees do fall,
And just a handful try to "Save the Whale".
But how do we fight on anew?
For mankind is endangered too,
While pop stars feed the starving where the politicians fail.

Roger

[gareth]

Hi Roger,

Frankly, I completely disagree with your statement "However, the sums earned by singers, sports stars and so on, is not the issue".

Those sums are very much part of the issue - because we people in the Western world are so much star struck by sports and singing stars that we don't know anymore when things are getting out of hand.

Here in Holland, we have two leagues of professional soccer clubs - and there's no end to news items about local governments coming to the rescue of soccer clubs, trying to ensure their survival.

Tax money is used to ensure the survival of those clubs indeed - and I utterly disagree with taxpayer's money wasted on that.

The survival of some obscure local footbal club appears to be worth more money than actively being committed to do away with poverty elsewhere. That's what I call hypocrisy ...

[roger]

Hi Gerrit,

I am not saying the figures earned by singers and sports stars is not an issue, I am saying it is not the issue tomorrow.

As for tax payers money being used to ensure the survival of football clubs, I entirely agree with you. It should not happen.

Just as govenments should not have the right to squander tax payers' money to financially support a failing football team, I also do not believe that they should have the right to put a ceiling on what individuals should be allowed to earn (other than by applying the standard tax rules which obviously apply to everyone). If a football team or an individual player is good enough, they will be immensely popular. They will therefore be in constant demand and will earn significant amounts of money. (Let's not get embroiled into whether or not it is actually *earned" but you know what I mean.) The same applies to a singer and, indeed to everyone else in any line of business.

What we usually don't know is what those highly rewarded people do with their money. Okay, we see their posh houses and evidence of their luxury lifestyles but wouldn't we do the same given the chance? Surely that is what commercial enterprise is all about and why most of us spend half our lives trying to climb the career ladder. However, I am sure that a significant number of celebrities make sizeable donations to various good causes. You and I know of one has done so, don't we?

So my motto here is, "strive to be successful, reap the rewards, and spend it wisely". I believe many of the artists we shall see tomorrow are doing not just two, but all three of those things..... but are we all? Who knows? At least these artists are making the necessary effort to encourage others to take more notice of the situation in parts of Africa. That is the issue.

Roger

[portia]

I think a good part of the commercial world is a scam. So, just don't donate money or buy into it, whatever. And if you can get people to stop pouring money into this, good.

[Richard]

Hello everybody!

I'm going to make a few comments. Looking at the positive side first, I would like to say well done to all the artists for getting together to try and help Africa, which does seem to be in a bad way at the moment. Of course we must not forget Hayley's wonderful work for UNICEF in helping the children there to get a better education.

On the negative side, I see that a fence has been erected which completely surrounds Hyde Park, so the administration costs must run to millions of pounds of tax-payers' money. I also read that ticket touts are trying to sell tickets for Live 8 at £200 each, so the greedy swines are trying to take the public for a ride as usual.

I heard on the radio last night that Madonna wanted SIX hours for her sound check!!! Hayley only needs a few minutes and she always sounds great. i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

Anyway, I won't be watching Live 8, but I will certainly be supporting Hayley in her "Bikes for Ghana" campaign.

Bye for now,

Richard

[gareth]

Hi people,

Thanks for the replies - in a way I am still trying to get my own thinking clear on the issues I raised.

As I said, I had uneasy feelings about the Live 8 concerts concept from the start - and reading a news item which stated the artists appearing in the London concert alone have earned over 5 billion dollars between them started putting it in focus.

Isn't the aim of this series of concerts to put pressure on the politicians getting together at the G8 summit next week to do something concrete about a more honest distribution of the world's wealth and resources? But I feel there something missing in this campaign ....

So what do those politicians have to do? Decide that all participating countries should immediately increase foreign aid from 0.5% of the National Product to 5%? That would mean they have to increase tax on their citizens by a considerable margin, or reduce spending elsewhere (on sport? - education? - social security?) - and will those citizens (the same ones that will be attending these concerts or watching them on TV) allow that to happen? I have my doubts here.

It's all well to say that the politicians have promised a lot and delivered little - but isn't it there a case to be built that those same masses that put pressure on the politicians today to do something are also preventing those same politicians from carrying out these promises?

And when it comes to a more even distribution of the world's resources - does that mean that we should strive towards those countries in Africa reaching the same level of affluency as we have? But we already gobble up the world's resources at an unsustainable pace ... In other words, if we are genuine about such an even distribution, we have to be prepared to take considerable steps backwards in our consumption of the world's resources .... Can you see that happen?

The missing factor in the Live 8 campaign therefore is, that pressure should not only be put on the politicians of the G8 summit to take decisions - but also on us, the citizens to accept those decisions. I hope therefore that at least some of the artists will also address the audience on their responsibilities ...

Yet another factor I have left completely out: the level of corruption in the governments of those poor African countries. Suppose we manage to inrease foreign aid by a factor 10 - how much of that well reach those who need it most? And how much of it will end up increasing the gap between the rich elite in those countries and those living in poverty?

Gerrit

[HWI]

Africa has far too many problems for any outside help, no matter how much of it there is, to sort out. If I remember rightly, they said the other day that 14 of the world's 20 poorest nations are in Africa. So, that is why I refer specifically to that continent.

Now, I am not saying that I hold this opinion myself but, I think that a very good question has been asked. If Africa was the cradle of humanity, they have had longer to develop than any other country in the world - so why haven't they?

The answer is simple. They didn't need to. They only did enough to survive. Basically, they stood still. Not advancing themselves at all. This shows parallels to Neanderthal man (as now agreed by archaeologists the world over), and we all know what happened to them. They became extinct. This is the ultimate result with all things which fail to develop. And nothing on this earth will change that. But, that question ducks the real issues, of which there are many, that prevail in Africa today. None of us can change the past.

So, what other problems are faced by the poor of these under developed countries?

1) Tribal mentality. There is still a very strong tribal base in many countries in Africa. This brings with it both conflicts and loyalties. No tribe wants to live under the rule of another, and this aspect will be covered later.

2) Criminality. We see reports on the news almost every day of the utterly ruthless, warlike criminality prevalent in so many of these countries. Huge amounts of aid is being poured into the continent every year - and has been for decades. War lords, criminal gangs and, yes, even governments are attacking convoys and depots, murdering people and stealing the aid. So, it never reaches the people who need it most.

3) Corruption. Very much allied to the one above. Some governments are covertly profiting from the efforts of these criminal gangs and, there are cases of the governments, if not actively sponsoring these gangs, supporting them in a number of ways, including military support.

4) Tribalism returns to the discussion. And this is down to colonial "interference". Historically, the tribes had their own lands where they were predominantly the resident people. When colonising powers moved in, they carved up the continent, totally disregarding the boundaries of tribal lands. They established borders and named countries. The huge error here was that the result was to have a "country" which was divided into areas of partial tribal lands. They were now expected to accept their new "country" status and come together under the new administrations.

This worked to some extent when those colonial powers still governed those countries. But, no one likes to live under the rule of another, alien, power. look at the UK. We have fought for more than a thousand years in an effort to maintain our independence. Sometimes succesfully, sometimes not. These people are no different. They want to govern themselves. Determine their own future. So, from the very beginning, colonial rule was ultimately doomed to fail. However, one thing that was destined to survive was the newly established country borders, with it's resultant carving up of tribal lands.

This gives us countries where it is inevitable that one tribe will be the majority and others the minority. The result of that is a battle for dominance. A fully understandable battle for dominance. They are aspiring to nothing more than we fought so long to protect.

Add to this the vastness of the land, the lack of infrastructure (roads etc.) and the difficulty of terrain in many areas. The problems are multiplied by these factors and become so much harder to alleviate.

The result is that these underdeveloped countries are now a bottomless pit as far as aid and money are concerned. Without a much more comprehensive plan to tackle all of the problems, individually and collectively, we will not solve the problem of poverty in these countries, we will merely spread it out more evenly around the world.

As Bob Geldof said, the Live8 concerts are not about money. They are about focussing the world's attention on the problems and, hopefully, will result in people around the world bringing an irresistible tide of pressure on their governments to get off their backsides and start enacting some real measures to bring relief to the most desperately needy.

So, whilst I can understand exactly what Gerrit is saying (because we have seen this very attitude from so many for so long), I don't think that, in the case of Live8, it is necessarily pertinent.

[gareth]

Hi all,

You can now download video coverage of Katherine performing "Amazing Grace" in Berlin.

The presenter states that they are awaiting a young woman with a fantastic voice, whose management company has stated that this is the first time she is in Germany, and that she is very much impressed. There is initially a problem with the microphone, and then Katherine is announced.

Here is the direct link:

www.katherine-jenkins-international.com/clips/O05a/live8berlinkj020705.wmv

Gerrit

[Richard]

Hello Gerrit!

Thank you for another very speedy video clip, and how's this for a speedy reply? i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

I'm very impressed with Katherine's performance, but her voice is definitely much lower in pitch now than it was when I first heard her with Hayley at the London Palladium last year. I would say Katherine is now a contralto, not a mezzo-soprano, but she still sounds great! i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif

It's murder in London today because we've got Live 8 going on in Hyde Park at this very moment, plus a very strange event which isn't for people of a nervous disposition, but you can read all about it in this week's Time Out. I can tell you Trafalgar Square is full of blokes dressed in pink, so for once I wish I was colour-blind!

Bye for now,

Richard

[nick0208uk]

If you aske me, Geldof and his cronies are a bunch of two faced ego tripping fools, andwhether they actually care for Africa is not as certain as you might think.

Let's be honest here, the majority of the people at the concerts, particularly the one at Hyde Park, are going there for the music and not the "cause", arent they?

And how is any of this going to help millions of people who are suggering through the genocidal conflict in Darfur; the famine in Niger; the unrest, oprresion and msiery in Zimbabwe and to a lesser extnent Ethiopia which also has food problems as well???

Those are just four examples of things happening..right now, people are dying and having their quality of life reuced to unacceptable levels every hour.

These concerts and the "march for justice" are not going to help a damn for any of those crises. They're not even targeting them for starters, where was Geldof and his supporters when people were reacting to the ITV News special report ffrom Harare, non existent.

As others ahve said, there is no point in a full cancelltation of debt and a doubling of aid if the quality of governacne isn't improved. And besides, IMO, trade jsutice is the more important issue and not throwing more money at the problem in a scatter gun approach.


I was just listening to Live 8 myself but not one of the high profiel concerts, actually it was the one being held at The Eden Project called "Africa Calling", the venue where Sir Bob thought it would be ok to have the African based artists perform, tucked away a nice distance from London and Edinburgh.

Just some of my opinions on the matter

thanks

Nick,

[Dave]

I'm steering clear of the Live 8 debate except for one broader aspect that's appeared in several posts by different people: Live 8 is about raising awareness. Awareness among politicians *and* among the general public. Increased awareness improves the chance both of politicians making bolder aid proposals and of the voters accepting them. As for the best *type* of aid, that is the sort of detail that politicians must - initially - decide.

If no more than increased awareness is expected, Live 8 has already succeeded. The further benefits may or may not occur and in any case will take some time to happen. But one thing is reasonably certain: Live 8 will do the African people (for example) no harm and *may* be a catalyst for the start of better things - albeit in a slow and unspectacular way.

The actual benefits may never happen - but for me, it is worth the try. Very little was going to happen without Live 8; somebody needed to try *something* different and that's just what they've done. I say good for Geldof and his fellow organisers for trying: it's more than the rest of us put together have done or indeed can do.

[roger]

Well said Dave. I agree absolutely. If it wasn't for the Live 8 concerts, this discussion would obviously not be taking place. I'm sure we were already aware of the situation in Africa but it has still made us think more deeply and make our feelings known. If we are representative of everyone around the world, and we all continue to make our voices heard, then sooner or later, those in a position to do something constructive will be forced to listen a little more closely than they have up to now. In that case, the concert organisers will have done a magnificent job.

And may I say here, Katherine was wonderful as ever.

Roger

[gareth]

OK, here's another clip....


From Berlin, Katherine flew straight back to London. She was interviewed backstage at Hyde Park about her appearance in Berlin just an hour ago ....

www.katherine-jenkins-international.com/clips/O05a/live8londonkj020705.wmv

I knew Katherine would be on. Enjoy!

Gerrit

[nick0208uk]

This is part of a post i made on a differnt forum but resonds to the points and sentiment here also >>

These concerts and this campaign aren't even targeting the reasons for such things taking palce in Sudan, Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Niger, DRC, Uganda and so on

They won't be helped and that is millions of people and their problems simply being ignored and cast aside. They talk about a "march for justice" but, their proposed "justice" won't reach these people. For us to do that, we have to get our hands dirty and get stuck in, take risks and do the difficult things. And i'm afraid that a treaty signing and debt cancellation and increased aid doesn't fall into the "difficult" category.

thanks

Nick,