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Post by grant on Jan 2, 2008 0:18:12 GMT
I actually purchased my first ever download album recently, and that was the original Odyssey which is not available on CD any more because I wanted to add some more tracks to the list after Roger posted his A-Z guide. Hi James Try looking on Ebay - most versions of "Odyssey" appear from time to time and you should be able to get an actual CD without too much trouble. Best wishes Grant
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Post by Paddy on Jan 2, 2008 0:27:35 GMT
I wonder to what extent are ipods to blame for falling CD sales? 'Cool' people nowadays seem to prefer to download tracks rather than buy CDs. Well I'm definitely not cool Paddy. I prefer the old fashioned method of getting a CD, with cover art/photos. How can you ask someone to sign a download?! I actually purchased my first ever download album recently, and that was the original Odyssey which is not available on CD any more because I wanted to add some more tracks to the list after Roger posted his A-Z guide. It's great to have a copy of Dido's Lament (haunting) and Never Saw Blue at last. I wonder if the modern trend to download individual songs rather than albums has had an impact? I would perceive Hayley, and indeed the whole crossover genre, as more album orientated than singles. If someone downloaded one track from Treasure, I presume it would count towards the singles chart rather than album, and the quantities sold would not be enough of singles to impact the top 40 singles? Maybe when Pure was released, downloads were not so prevalent and to get a particular song, people had to buy the whole album? James Hi James! I wonder what's the opposite to 'cool'! *** ? I seem to remember someone using the phrase, ' horribly old-fashioned', not so long ago? I'm lucky enough to have found 'Odyssey' (with 'Dido's Lament' and 'Never Saw Blue' - grrreat!), so that's why I'm not 'cool' either! Not so many ipods as now around for 'Pure' in 2003, I'd say. Anyway, I wonder do 'ipodders' think in genres (or CDs) at all? More like, "De track rocks! Gotta download it!" Happy guitar-teaching 2008! Paddy
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Post by milewalker on Jan 2, 2008 3:23:49 GMT
.How can you ask someone to sign a download?! With an electronic signature, of course!
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Post by milewalker on Jan 2, 2008 3:34:45 GMT
[ Hi Jon! What you say makes perfect sense to me. But I hope (choose to believe) that the curse of Pure's success can be lifted, through Hayley's evolving performing (and song-writing) talents and her broadening range of material. Wishful thinking? Not with the 'magic wands' of extensive promotion and publicity ... Paddy This leads us sadly back to the same old Catch-22 discussed on other threads. She hasnt had a large promotion budget since Pure (promotion = money) The most likely reason for this in my opinion is that she no longer has a lot of money to work with. When you call for more promotion, you are in effect asking Hayley to "borrow" more money - and also assuming that Decca feels that this "loan" is a good investment. I hope she gets more promotion too. I just dont see it happening under the present circumstances. Jon - contributing to topic drift since 1999
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Post by Paddy on Jan 2, 2008 5:26:04 GMT
What you say makes perfect sense to me. But I hope (choose to believe) that the curse of Pure's success can be lifted, through Hayley's evolving performing (and song-writing) talents and her broadening range of material. Wishful thinking? Not with the 'magic wands' of extensive promotion and publicity ... This leads us sadly back to the same old Catch-22 discussed on other threads. She hasnt had a large promotion budget since Pure (promotion = money) The most likely reason for this in my opinion is that she no longer has a lot of money to work with. When you call for more promotion, you are in effect asking Hayley to "borrow" more money - and also assuming that Decca feels that this "loan" is a good investment. I hope she gets more promotion too. I just dont see it happening under the present circumstances. Jon - contributing to topic drift since 1999 Yes! That's the 'real' reality! It takes money to make money - but whose money? Since Decca is already committed to two more Hayley albums and, obviously, wishes to make substantial gains from them, surely Decca must realise that a success such as 'Pure' (or 'Odyssey' or 'Treasure') is unlikely to happen - without further significant (Decca) investment in promotion and publicity etc.? Of course, with so many other singers on the books, Hayley's further successes are not essential for Decca's profitability. Hence, Decca might well decide to let Hayley's 'dynamic' take its own course and 'sink or swim'! Decca may well be content with three out of five successes - so why bother with the 'Jackpot'? But, hopefully, some (Simon-Cowell-like) patron (if any) in Decca will have enough faith in Hayley's evolving talent and enough 'clout' to push the entrepreneurs in Decca to recognise her financial potential and take the necessary financial risks. Hayley's forthcoming album may well be just as wonderful as 'Pure' or 'Odyssey' or 'Treasure' But it's hardly likely to sell itself purely on its own merits. Money shouts much louder than talent or quality! Paddy
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Post by Paddy on Jan 2, 2008 5:37:22 GMT
.How can you ask someone to sign a download?! With an electronic signature, of course! Good one, Jon! Never thought of that! But (maybe, just maybe?) ... James wanted more than just the signature? Why else would he go to so many concerts ... and in such a short time too! Paddy
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Post by martindn on Jan 2, 2008 20:54:45 GMT
She also needs to remember to include a couple of classical tracks on the next album if she wants it listed by Classic FM. If all the songs are her own, which would be nice, they might not be seen a belonging to the "Classical" genre at CFM. I can't imagine they would regard Hayley as a classical composer. That might mean no radio exposure at all!
Martin
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Post by roger on Jan 3, 2008 0:15:17 GMT
Hi Martin, For the album to qualify for the classical charts (in the UK), she would need more than a couple. She would need about eight. Roger
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Post by milewalker on Jan 3, 2008 1:34:50 GMT
Paddy. the problem is that in a sense it is Hayley's money either way. It is possible, as you state, that the issue lies with Decca and their willingness to invest more money. But it is just as possible in my opinon that it is Hayley (and her financial position at the present time) who would prefer to not do this. As a general rule, it is the artist who is responsible for any shortfall in revenue at the end of a contract. Of course, we can only infer these things from what we read, and the way her career has been conducted to this point - and for that reason, I could be completely off base here. What I do know is that even if you discount the sales of "Pure", the performance of the next two albums has not gone in the right direction. There also seems to be a major issue with nearly everything she could conceivably try to change this. Thanks Roger and Martin - I think - for the introduction of yet another issue that I hadnt thought of. She has spread herself very thinly now, and my fear is that she really isnt getting much of a bang for the buck in any of her markets. She could always prop up her standing in the UK by spending more time there - at the risk of her standing elsewhere. I hope I am wrong, but I see a zero sum game playing out. Jon
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Post by Paddy on Jan 3, 2008 3:23:22 GMT
Hi Jon!
Some very interesting angles there!
What does Hayley herself have in mind for her future?
- Another major hit or a steady building up her profile, concert by concert?
- A modest-scale concert artist or a chart-topping star?
'Time enough a little later for the big hit - I'm just twenty years old.' ??
'Gosh, I just want to keep on singing? That's what I enjoy most.' ??
If 'Pure' had not happened (or had not been the major success it was),
what would we now be saying about 'Odyssey' and 'Treasure'?
205,000 sales since 2005 ('Odyssey') plus 71,000 in 2007 ('Treasure')! Not bad!
So, it might be a little too soon to be talking about 'wrong directions'?
In 2007, Hayley has spent significant time in the UK especially.
Perhaps it's a bit too early yet to expect her (very successful) concerts (and increased standing in the UK)
to translate significantly into increased CD sales?
Or does that suggest that Hayley needs larger-scale concerts for a more dramatic boost to sales?
But, as you say, Who knows?
But what I do know is that those who have met her and heard her sing
wish her the success she herself desires, whatever that may be ...
Paddy
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Dave
Administrator
HWI Admin
Posts: 7,688
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Post by Dave on Jan 3, 2008 3:49:06 GMT
Hi everyone, I've kept out of this thread since James re-started it because i wanted to update my end of year sales estimates for Hayley, which I've now done, so I could look at the "sales problem" from another angle. That of total annual sales of all Hayley's albums combined. Some of the lower volume figures were tricky to estimate and they are subject to further refinement but i am now fairly confident that the following annual totals of UK sales are near the mark: 2003 - 580,000 (Pure) 2004 - 155,000 (Pure + Pure Special Edition) 2005 - 115,000 (Pure + Pure SE + Odyssey original) 2006 - 95,000 (Pure SE + Odyssey + Odyssey SE) 2007 - 95,000 (Pure SE + Odyssey SE + Treasure) Total 1,040,000 (which matches well a Music Week figure of "just shy of one million" the week Treasure entered the chart). So on the face of it and without delving into the details, the situation may have stabilised in the UK. It is also showing signs of stabilising in NZ - though I cannot get detailed information from there and the platinum numbers are currently 3 for Odyssey and 2 for Treasure but the latter could still reach 3 x platinum if it is repromoted during Hayley's forthcoming concerts and tour. I'd guess at 35,000 to 40,000 NZ sales for Treasure at the moment and of course the earlier albums together will add useful numbers to that. I think Japan is fairly stable and from memory she was selling perhaps 25 to 30,000 albums there a year with something similar in the US but the US figures are hard to estimate. Add in the other markets in the Far East, Australia and Canada and Hayley must be selling well over 200,000 albums a year Worldwide. It all adds up and I am sure the promotion budgets these days are commensurate with the likely sales - no more overspend! Back to the UK, we know thet because of the Celtic Woman clash of dates, Treasure was underpromoted (Hayley left the Country in release week) and we also know there was and is unlikely to be a Special Edition in the UK. That means plenty of lost 2007 sales - perhaps over 30,000 but anyway, certainly enough to have taken her 2007 UK sales well past those for 2006. So the tide could have been turned in 2007 if the priorities had been different. It seems logical to me for Hayley now to spend more time in the UK in the run-up to and beyond her next album, which we think will be released in the late summer (my guess is that she will start recording it in March). Promotion of both her last two UK releases (Odyssey SE + Treasure) was truncated because of Il Divo and even more for Celtic Woman so it seems reasonable to assume that with sustained and effective promotion (TV & radio appearances) together with a bit of TV advertising as well, it will do better than Treasure - hopefully much better. Incidentally, Pure seems to have sold more copies in 2007 than the year before and that trend may continue (20,000 for Pure + Odyssey). Hayley will I am sure return to NZ to promote it there too and hopefully, it can be for at least a couple of weeks so less of a rush than for Treasure. I'm not sure what will happen in the US but I'm sure something will be arranged - though I can't guess what at the moment - same with Japan. Well that's my hope anyway - and I think there is at least some some logic behind it. What is completely unpredictable is what other committments might crop up to interfere with such a strategy... Cheers, Dave
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Post by Paddy on Jan 3, 2008 18:34:27 GMT
Thank you, Dave!Great to read your re-assuring statistics: 2003 - 580,000 (Pure) 2004 - 155,000 (Pure + Pure Special Edition) 2005 - 115,000 (Pure + Pure SE + Odyssey original) 2006 - 95,000 (Pure SE + Odyssey + Odyssey SE) 2007 - 95,000 (Pure SE + Odyssey SE + Treasure) Total 1,040,000 (which matches well a Music Week figure of "just shy of one million" the week Treasure entered the chart). - and enlightening analysis: So on the face of it and without delving into the details, the situation may have stabilised ... .... Hayley must be selling well over 200,000 albums a year Worldwide. It all adds up and I am sure the promotion budgets these days are commensurate with the likely sales - no more overspend! Back to the UK ... ... So the tide could have been turned in 2007 if the priorities had been different. - and realistic plan of action: It seems logical to me for Hayley now to spend more time in the UK in the run-up to and beyond her next album, which we think will be released in the late summer (my guess is that she will start recording it in March). Promotion of both her last two UK releases (Odyssey SE + Treasure) was truncated because of Il Divo and even more for Celtic Woman so it seems reasonable to assume that with sustained and effective promotion (TV & radio appearances) together with a bit of TV advertising as well, it will do better than Treasure - hopefully much better. Incidentally, Pure seems to have sold more copies in 2007 than the year before and that trend may continue (20,000 for Pure + Odyssey). - and (unassuming) optimism, which all wish to share: Well that's my hope anyway - and I think there is at least some some logic behind it. What is completely unpredictable is what other committments might crop up to interfere with such a strategy...
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Post by comet on Jan 3, 2008 19:20:42 GMT
so find your local radio stations and
email requests for real people in your area
A track from Treasure for Johnny and Mary or for the owners of a local well known shop or hotel or restaurant, Just get something played even for your own birthday.
Every radio airplay counts
The more often they see Hayley's name mentioned the more likely they are to remember it or at least look up their cd collections to see what they do have,
you could also make your requests by phone or post card
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Post by thomas on Jan 3, 2008 19:40:07 GMT
.How can you ask someone to sign a download?! With an electronic signature, of course! But there's no way to add an electronic kiwi next to the signature. i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gif i.postimg.cc/9fYxy370/smilie-big-grin.gifI also prefer to buy the CD if I want to have the complete one. Downloads can be interesting when one's interested in only a few specific songs. I downloaded a few Hayley songs on iTunes but only for the reason that those songs weren't officially released on CD in Europe, excepted on soundtracks or on oversea releases. But in the meanwhile I've got all the downloads also on an official CD now. The latest one was "Prayer". Thomas
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Post by martindn on Jan 3, 2008 20:03:34 GMT
It appears that Aled Jones is presenting the morning show on radio 2 this week. Any chance of persuading him to play something by his friend Hayley (if he hasn't already)? If Hayley could get one of the R2 jocks on side, she might not need to worry about Classic FM. Wogan I think has a liking for good girl singers like Eva Cassidy and for Irish girl bands like the Corrs, so why not Hayley and CW?
Roger,
Are there really 8 classical songs on Pure? I think there are only 2 or 3 (In Trutina and Benedictus), and even counting the Maori songs and Amazing Grace, only 6.
Martin
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