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Post by petertong on Jul 9, 2008 21:59:11 GMT
Hi Jon, I'm not sure how one would know that is has not done much for her in the past... album sales? A tough call knowing what would work since she has very little exposure to begin with. Any exposure is better than zero though! I just introduced Hayley to a voice teacher friend of mine this week and she loved Hayley... so many folks out there here in the US that haven't even heard of her All I am saying is that here in America we tend to be a bit more religious than Europe and that just about all of my friends that I've introduced Hayley to (and most of them happen to be Christians) just love Hayley once they've been exposed to her. In fact the lady that blogged over in the Washington thread happens to be a Christian as well... it might be a way for her to get at least some exposure here to a rather large demographic here in the US and that cannot hurt esp if that is who Hayley is (we want her to be genuine to herself of course). Personally I think Hayley should try a bunch of different music to see what folks like here I personally would love it if she would sing a worship song (as I do believe Hayley is a Christian) at a large church here as I really think her voice is perfect for that as well as the classical stuff. She has kind of taken a step closer to that with songs like Abide in Me and so she might as well step over to see what the results are on some sunday Especially if that is who she is... is it risky... yes but if it is her then why not... my impression is that she has always been her own person Then again this might not be Hayley in which case she should stay away. I thought the last time she did that the results were pretty good here at least though Peter Hayley has already done 2 appearances on the Hour of Power as well as a CBS Sunday morning show. Every album she has released in the US has contained at least 2 piece of religious music. There is no problem with religious songs per se - but I fail to see how this would help her much since it hasnt seemed to have done much for her in the past Jon
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Post by larryhauck on Jul 9, 2008 22:33:36 GMT
Richard,
I had a friend who was an excellent jazz guitarist some forty years ago. One night I ran into him in a club playinging country western music. I was shocked and I asked him what he was doing there. His answer was that was where the opportunity to get noticed. Later he suceeded in the jazz genre. He has since passed away so I never got a chance to ask him how he made the transition. However, many artist such as K D Lang have been very successful crossing over from country. I'm not saying that Hayley should go country; but it woulddn' hurt to try it since other methods have failed.
Larry
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Post by milewalker on Jul 10, 2008 0:20:05 GMT
Hi Jon, I'm not sure how one would know that is has not done much for her in the past... album sales? A tough call knowing what would work since she has very little exposure to begin with. Any exposure is better than zero though! In my opinion, one of the biggest misconceptions that many people seem to have is that Hayley's problems in the US have anything at all to do with exposure. In another thread, Roger worked out the time she has spent in various countries, and it turns out that Hayley has spent virtually the same amount of time in the US has she has in the UK. I believe the actual numbers were 32% to 31% as of the time of his post - I am sure Roger will correct me if this is wrong. The bottom line is that if exposure was the issue, I just dont see it Jon
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Dave
Administrator
HWI Admin
Posts: 7,688
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Post by Dave on Jul 10, 2008 0:49:19 GMT
I agree Jon, Hayley has had plenty of (no doubt expensive) exposure in the US and it didn't work as was hoped. Part of the problem was and remains essentially zero airplay and that's down to the type of music she sings. But that's a problem to some extent in every Country, not just the US. As you've said, something exceptional and "big" needs to happen for Hayley to start charting again in the Billboard 200 (i.e. to be considered 'popular'). Although it should be remembered that she has a continuous presence in the Classical Crossover chart and is still among the top ten crossover artists in the US - and with very little promotional budget or expenses these days. One thing is for sure, if that "something big" doesn't happen (and those kind of things aren't predictable) the record company aren't going to spend big money again - Hayley's money at the end of the day - promoting her in the US. It's all been tried before, big money was lost, and record companies don't repeat what they consider to be mistakes. Their mistake - but of course, Hayley's bill. Hayley has a small but I think loyal fanbase in the US and that's how i see it continuing for the foreseeable future. And it makes the fans she does have in the US that much more important! Cheers, Dave
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Post by petertong on Jul 10, 2008 1:43:17 GMT
Hi Jon, Did Roger's accounting include time spent with other groups? Ie il divo or Celtic Woman? Peter Hi Jon, I'm not sure how one would know that is has not done much for her in the past... album sales? A tough call knowing what would work since she has very little exposure to begin with. Any exposure is better than zero though! In my opinion, one of the biggest misconceptions that many people seem to have is that Hayley's problems in the US have anything at all to do with exposure. In another thread, Roger worked out the time she has spent in various countries, and it turns out that Hayley has spent virtually the same amount of time in the US has she has in the UK. I believe the actual numbers were 32% to 31% as of the time of his post - I am sure Roger will correct me if this is wrong. The bottom line is that if exposure was the issue, I just dont see it Jon
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Post by milewalker on Jul 10, 2008 3:39:22 GMT
Hi Peter.
Yes it did. That accounts for a fair amount of the time she spent. Most of the money however, was spent on earlier promotion. In effect, by the time she joined up with Il Divo, I think the present situation was already pretty much set in place.
You are correct that hardly anyone in America has heard of her - but that is because the promotion didnt stick, not that there was none.
Dave - one minor quibble. Didnt Hayley actually chart (unspectacularly) on the Billboard 200 with both Pure and Celtic Treasure?
Jon
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Post by stevemacdonald on Jul 10, 2008 4:29:06 GMT
Jon and others,
What many of you seem to overlook is the big mistake that was made when Hayley made her US television debut on GMA: instead of singing her brilliant and exotic signature "Pokarekare Ana" -- which would have wowed American audiences -- her handlers had her do the warhorse of warhorses, "Amazing Grace" (which Charlotte Church famously sang at the White House just a few years before). I saw this as tragic, because no matter how great Hayley sang it, it was still the same old song. If only.
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Post by roger on Jul 10, 2008 8:59:11 GMT
Hi Steve, I have to say I agree with you 100 per cent. However, many US members are frequently saying that Hayley should perform more gospel/Christian type songs yet, when she did in her US TV debut, you are suggesting that it was not the right choice. That suggests that she is in a 'no win' situation in that she will never please everyone. The point being, if US members cannot agree between themselves, what chance does she have? Roger
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Post by stevemacdonald on Jul 10, 2008 13:29:14 GMT
...The point being, if US members cannot agree between themselves, what chance does she have? US members of HWI's forum are one thing, but the American public are another. Hayley's appeal to the wider audience here would have been better supported had she been perceived as different. How different can you be with a song everyone's heard a gazillion times? Singing Amazing Grace was, in my book, playing it safe and it backfired. For Hayley to succeed in the states outside of our little group of fans, it will take daring -- much more daring that was on display previously. An incredibly beautiful Maori tune that few Americans had ever heard before fits that definition of daring. It was a no-brainer, but they didn't see that at the time. Instead they've squandered the best opportunity they had for her to make her mark here.
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Post by roger on Jul 10, 2008 13:40:42 GMT
I totally agree with you Steve. I was merely recognising the fact that other US members favour her singing more gospel and Christian-type songs in order to achieve recognition. Roger
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Post by milewalker on Jul 10, 2008 15:52:31 GMT
Hi Roger, In the UK, Hayley is successful - and her success in and of itself produces several effects among her fans there - for example some resistance to making any changes in a formula which works. Also, if its working, there is less incentive for fans to express individual opinions about what might make it work better. They may actually have them - there is merely less motivation to express them. She overlaps different tastes well enough to keep everybody happy. Her success favors fan conformity. In the US, Hayley has enjoyed less success, and that has effects among her fans here as well. Among those effects is a greater willingness to express opinions about what she should do - as well as an obviously greater willingness to allow more change than would probably be the case elsewhere. Her relative lack of success fosters diversity. I have been devoutly avoiding the specific issue of Hayley singing more Christian songs in America. For the record, it might actually work to a small degree - but I would not give her that advice were I a handler. The reasons for that delve into areas best not addressed on this forum I will say this - I dont know that a change of that sort would help as much as the general evolution in her music might over the course of time anyway. Steve- my intent above was to merely point out that Hayley had a fair share of exposure here. I wasnt speaking to the quality of that exposure at all. You can make a good argument that a number of things should have been done differently. But they werent, and the damage has already been done. Personallly, I think that the single biggest problem she had here was simply bad luck. Jon
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Post by milewalker on Jul 10, 2008 19:11:37 GMT
This is in response to a brief exchange between Dave and Socialboy on the "Official Charts" thread.
From Dave: From Socialboy :
I dont know that there is that much mystery here.
1. Sarah was married to the most famous composer of our era for several years. This provided her with all the industry connections anyone could ask for. 2. As a direct outcome of her marraige, she became associated with the most famous musical written in our era - Phantom of the Opera. This provided her with a huge amount of international exposure at the launch of her crossover career. 3. Not only did Webber write Phantom - but he also wrote several other things specifically with Sarah in mind. This provided - and still provides - the repertoire she bases her concerts around. 4. Her initial link to crossover was by way of musical theater. She learned to be "theatrical" in this way - and this has allowed her to maintain a high touring profile in the US despite declining sales.
I am you see not really sure what is relevant about the first three points to Hayley, except that these things happened to Sarah and not to her. Fate simply handed Sarah a hand she could hardly fail to win with. To a lesser extent, the same thing is true of Charlotte Church.
There probably is something she can do about becoming a better overal act - if she chooses that option.
I think a good argument can be made that Hayley misplayed her hand to some extent - but it was never as strong as Sarah's to begin with.
Jon
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Post by socalboy on Jul 10, 2008 19:57:53 GMT
Hi Jon:
I don't disagree with anything you've said, but that's not the mystery I'm talking about. Sarah's connection to ALW and CC's adventures and misadventures simply underscore the larger point that successful female crossover artists in the U.S come around only slightly more often than Haley’s comet.
What is perplexing is the number Dave offered up: 2 female soloists in the top 25 – I find that staggering. I’d love to know the comparable numbers (Dave?) in the UK.
I believe a number of factors are at play, not the least of which is America’s macho culture, but I’m sure it’s more complicated. As I say, the real answer could provide some guidance in marketing Hayley's future.
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Post by petertong on Jul 10, 2008 20:44:33 GMT
Okay i did something about this and fired off an email to my local DJ here on the biggest Christian station here in Grand Rapids area Hopefully some sort of small experiment can be arranged
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Post by larryhauck on Jul 10, 2008 21:12:59 GMT
Hey Socalboy,Interesting statistics. I'm surprised. Do they cover all types of music? I much prefer the female voice. Larry
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