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Post by nicola on Apr 22, 2011 14:05:35 GMT
I don't want to comment so soon as to how I feel about the album, but is anyone else finding the music and Hayley's vocals disjointed? They don't blend. The instruments sound louder and crisper than Hayley and sound as if they were copy and pasted together. I know that IS what they do in the studio - hardly ever record it all together, but it actually sounds like they recorded it separately. This is supposed to be disguised. The production doesn't sound right to me at all. I know Morricone has more experience with instruments than with voices, and sadly, I think 'Paradiso' highlights this. As to how I feel about the actual album (aside from production), I haven't yet decided.  |
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Post by romancoronado on Apr 22, 2011 14:32:21 GMT
Simba - I'm not putting down Hayley's vocal performance - that can't be any less than brilliant. My issue is with the production. xx I've only heard the 30 second bits on the NZ itunes but from what I've heard I know exactly what you're talking about. There's something off about the audio mixing on the vocal track. It has nothing to do with Hayley's tone or intonation. It's almost as if they just took the raw recording and didn't edit it with any reverb or effects (which is normally what happens with most recordings be it vocal or instrumental within any genre). That's why it doesn't sound "crisp" or have that concert hall effect that her other albums have. I don't want to say too much on this because I haven't heard the full cd in my headphones, only heard what's coming out of my computer speakers which isn't enough to give a full critique on the audio. But I do know what you're talking about. Nothing to do with the quality of the song or the quality of her singing. It's the mixing and editing of each vocal track. |
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Post by romancoronado on Apr 22, 2011 21:55:24 GMT
Simba - I'm not putting down Hayley's vocal performance - that can't be any less than brilliant. My issue is with the production. xx I've only heard the 30 second bits on the NZ itunes but from what I've heard I know exactly what you're talking about. There's something off about the audio mixing on the vocal track. It has nothing to do with Hayley's tone or intonation. It's almost as if they just took the raw recording and didn't edit it with any reverb or effects (which is normally what happens with most recordings be it vocal or instrumental within any genre). That's why it doesn't sound "crisp" or have that concert hall effect that her other albums have. I don't want to say too much on this because I haven't heard the full cd in my headphones, only heard what's coming out of my computer speakers which isn't enough to give a full critique on the audio. But I do know what you're talking about. Nothing to do with the quality of the song or the quality of her singing. It's the mixing and editing of each vocal track. Just got my copy today. So far I've listened to 12 of the 14 tracks (currently listening to track 12 as I type). I'm glad I didn't comment to much on the audio mixing because I was basing my original statements off of my computer speakers. After listening to the tracks with headphones on I can say that there is something a bit off on the audio mixing but not on every track. The ones that really stood out to me were tracks 2, 3 and 12 (especially this one). The rest, so far, seem to blend well with the accompaniment...however it's still just a hair off. BUT....it's not enough to destroy the quality of the album. The album is very very good. I'm a sucker for string ensemble and this album has plenty of strings. |
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Post by Dennis S. on Apr 23, 2011 2:06:39 GMT
Well, my ears aren't well trained enough to notice subtle things like that.
But if those mixing issues are true, they should have plenty of time to fix them on later versions.
Especially the U.S. version, 180 days is a lot of time.
This Album is really good.
It'll be such a waste if Universal allowed production issues to ruin it for those with very discerning ears.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Apr 23, 2011 2:55:52 GMT
Hi Dennis, I don't think you (or Decca) need be concerned about that because 99% of the record buying public either won't even notice any mixing issues, or won't care. Any that exist are of minor significance to me but I am mildly concerned about one or two other technical aspects, such as the dynamic range being slightly lower than most Hayley albums and much lower than Pure. However, it's still got a much bigger dynamic range (loud parts compared to quiet parts) than almost any pop album you could name, with only some Hayley albums and classical orchestral recordings beating it (in my CD collection). Hayley fans who like classical music will attach greater importance to this than those who prefer more 'pop' types of music. Digging deeper, the overall production standard is indeed lower than Pure (I can see and/or hear a few of the editing joins when I expand the on-screen waveform and play it loud) but I can happily live with it. There is also excessive limiting of audio peaks (which I detest) on a couple of tracks, Here's To You near the end is worst, but fortunately that hasn't introduced any noticeable distortion and again, 99% of the record buying public won't even be aware of either of these issues, so it's OK! Cheers, Dave |
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Post by nicola on Apr 23, 2011 9:23:00 GMT
The end of 'Here's To You' is the audio equivalent of Where's Wally. :/
Anyway, I didn't mean to bring up a discussion about mixing and whatnot. I didn't actually think my technical ear was that great so I thought it would have been an obvious thing to people - if not, then that's fine by me.
Early favourites so far are Lezione Di Musica (so different!) and Here's To You (strangely enough!).
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Post by Roger-G on Apr 23, 2011 9:43:04 GMT
Hi Dennis, I don't think you (or Decca) need be concerned about that because 99% of the record buying public either won't even notice any mixing issues, or won't care. Any that exist are of minor significance to me but I am mildly concerned about one or two other technical aspects, such as the dynamic range being slightly lower than most Hayley albums and much lower than Pure. However, it's still got a much bigger dynamic range (loud parts compared to quiet parts) than almost any pop album you could name, with only some Hayley albums and classical orchestral recordings beating it (in my CD collection). Hayley fans who like classical music will attach greater importance to this than those who prefer more 'pop' types of music. Digging deeper, the overall production standard is indeed lower than Pure (I can see and/or hear a few of the editing joins when I expand the on-screen waveform and play it loud) but I can happily live with it. There is also excessive limiting of audio peaks (which I detest) on a couple of tracks, Here's To You near the end is worst, but fortunately that hasn't introduced any noticeable distortion and again, 99% of the record buying public won't even be aware of either of these issues, so it's OK! I agree with all your comments. On a first listen, it's just a pleasure to hear Hayley singing all those new songs. But after a while the rather uneven editing begins to show through and it's easy to spot the joins on the waveform. I have even begun to re-edit them with some judicious cut-and-paste of a few milliseconds, but of course it is impossible to do a proper job without the original tracks. We also have to get used to the fact that Morricone's orchestra are centre-stage and so rather more prominent than one might wish. That's to be expected I suppose since it is his music. It's not as heavy-handed as the Winter album where the voice is almost buried in places, but I would love to hear the same songs mixed so that Hayley's voice is forefront - as it always was in the first three albums. |
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Post by martindn on Apr 23, 2011 10:51:39 GMT
Hi Nicola,
Has it occurred to you that there is a difference between the usual way that classical music is recorded, with the soloists and orchestra together following the conductor, and pop music where the vocals are usually recorded sepatately?
"Interpretation" of a piece requires subtle changes of phrasing, timing and emphasis. Both conductors and vocalists do this. If the vocalist can take the lead from the conductor, it should all fit together. If the vocalist can't see the conductor, they will do their own thing, and it might not fit quite so well.
Hayley's interpretation skills have improved a lot recently, perhaps due to your highlighting that as a weakness of hers. Morricone even called her a "great interpreter of songs". If she does her own thing independently of the conductor also doing his own thing, could it produce the effect you have noticed?
Hayley is much more used to performing with a small band that takes its lead from her.
Oh, and BTW, although I agree Malena has some affinity with La Califfa, I still think Malena is beautiful, and is emerging as one of my favourite tracks.
And yes, we are not used to hearing Hayley hiding behind the backing - unlike some other well known singers I could name. That's why I prefer her live recording of "For the Fallen" to the studio recording - Hayley's voice is more prominent.
But I didn't actually really notice that until you mentioned it Nicola. This is probably the finest classical crossover album ever made. It is one of the most beautiful things I have ever heard. It is certain to be a huge seller, and is a great advert for the genre.
Lots of people might be attracted to this kingd of music when they hear this, and realise it isn't just constant rehashes of Amazing Grace and Ave Maria. Let's get behind Hayley and Ennio and support them. I think what they have achieved here is wonderful.
Martin D
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Post by martindn on Apr 23, 2011 18:04:17 GMT
On second thoughts, and listening to the album a couple of times more today specifically for the issues that have been raised, I honestly don't think they are issues.
Hayley's voice doesn't get lost in the backing, once or twice she merges with it whilst using her voice an an instrument in the orchestra. That must be a difficult thing to get the mixing right for, and as far as I am concerned they succeeded.
Also, I don't really think Malena is that much like La Califfa - they both have the same soert of backing to start with, but the melodies are quite different.
In view of the technical issues with some of her earlier albums, I don 't think that's bad at all.
It is a testament to how good this album is that the only criticisms that can be made are technical, and you need to examine the waveform to find even those. I think we all expect a different standard from Hayley than from anyone else, and as far as I am concerned she delivers it.
Martin D
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Post by nicola on Apr 23, 2011 21:35:31 GMT
I've had my opinion validated by a a very highly esteemed and experienced producer (he's sold over 45 million albums world wide - and that's only of the artists I know he's worked with). I won't say who he was. He saw my opinion on Facebook and messaged me about it. That doesn't make it true or correct, but it certainly cements my feelings to do with the recordings.
Martin - Hayley's performance is irrelevent - it's the mixing, nothing to do with Hayley or her interpretation. And almost all CC albums are recorded with the singer performing separately from the orchestra - this is nothing new or specific to this album. The producer said it was out of sync and the vocals were recorded badly. He said that the orchestra was recorded superbly, however. He also hoped this will be fixed before international release. It was probably instantly obvious to him because he's a producer himself; for most people it probably won't even by noticeable.
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Post by martindn on Apr 23, 2011 22:14:12 GMT
The question is Nicola will they even bother? And if they do will it make any significant difference to sales? And if they do do something about it, does that make the original NZ ones collectors items?
Back in 1970, well before you were born I'm sure, a relatively unknown (then) "cult" rock band called Pink Floyd made an album called The Atom Heart Mother. I gather thay made a demo. The title track, which was one side of the LP, needed as well as the band, an orchestra and choir - it would almost qualify as classical crossover. I suspect that the record company decided that re-recording it for a relatively unknown "cult" band was too expensive - they released the demo. It was Pink Floyd's first number 1 album, despite all sorts of problems with the drums being out of sync, and generally poor sound quality.
The fact is that the quality of the music shines through, and most people don't notice these sorts of issues. Is it worth remixing the album to satify a few purists? Well, if there was a remix of Paradiso, they would sell another copy to me, and perhaps a few others here. Is it worth it to them?
Anyway, I'm sure Hayley's live performances of the Paradiso songs will be spot on. Especially if her own sound engineer is involved.
Martin D
BTW Atom Heart Mother, which Pink Floyd always claimed could never be performed live, was performed live a few years ago by the students of the Paris Conservatoire. This is on the internet as a video, (dailymotion) twice as long as the original and far better quality.
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Post by mihizawi on Apr 23, 2011 22:22:38 GMT
I will reserve my opinion to when I get to hear the album itself (although I am not sure that I will notice the issues that are discussed here). However, one one of the points raised in this discussion, I think that, maybe in thie case of this particular album, it could have been recorded and produced more in the way of classical music albums, meaning the orchestra and the voice being recorded together and with the full dynamic range. That would have probably avoi ded most of the issues discussed here, and on a personal level, I am quite sure I would enjoy it even more!
Michal
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Post by amptique on Apr 23, 2011 22:40:34 GMT
I tend to agree with you, Martin. They may not think it worth the cost to reproduce the album to fix the technical issues, but don't you think they should. If something as gorgeous as this album could be made even better, why wouldn't they do it. There is so much in this world that is produced to the standard of "good enough" that we become accustomed to accepting less than we deserve. That's why we have oil rigs blowing up in the gulf and air traffic controllers falling asleep on the job . . . repeatedly.
I have never known Hayley to ever give less than her absolute best and I can't imagine that she would be pleased with those around her that didn't do the same.
The tricky part here is how do you put pressure on Decca to do what is right without adversely affecting Hayley. That's the last thing I want to do.
BillR
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Post by Dave on Apr 24, 2011 1:17:12 GMT
The producer said it was out of sync and the vocals were recorded badly. He said that the orchestra was recorded superbly, however. He also hoped this will be fixed before international release. It was probably instantly obvious to him because he's a producer himself; Hello Nicola! Well you weren't specific about synchronization in your initial comments, but yes, there are a few odd moments where Hayley and the orchestra don't come in exactly together. A bit like in live recordings or live duets - and it doesn't even take the edge off this excellent album, when I listen to it. There are several possible reasons for it, only some of which have been touched on in this thread, mostly speculative of course. Perhaps it is simply due to different recording and mixing techniques being used where it was mixed in Italy, either generally, by Morricone's people, or preferred by Morricone himself. A lighter touch, perhaps? I can't comment on "vocals recorded badly" unless you want to be more specific, but there's nothing obvious that's struck me so far. However, I find the overall balance between Hayley's voice and the orchestra to be very pleasing, I hear them both with the kind of clarity that I love. From the outset, I fully expected the Morricone orchestra to be given the same prominence as Hayley - which in this kind of collaboration is how it should be, I am sure. for most people it probably won't even by noticeable. Exactly! I don't even see it as a problem, it might even add an endearing quality of the kind often found in "live" recordings - an album refreshingly free from the all too common over-production of many albums these days. Cheers, Dave |
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Post by Simba on Apr 24, 2011 6:23:33 GMT
No offense to the technical geniuses here, but I think it's kinda pointless to state all this, when possibly there are much more professional people there who would've reviewed the album so many times, to see even the slightest thing off. If the album passed up without them noticing it, I don't think there're problems with it at all. I don't get where you get the idea of what's the 'right' way, this is music, I don't think you can restrict it under certain rules, you can never say it should fall under certain ways of production, ofcourse you can say you 'prefer' her previous album production, but that doesn't make this any lesser, quality wise. I don't see 'that' as an excuse for your 'proposed' low production quality. As a master composer and musician I'm pretty sure he'd know how to produce vocals properly as well. Not to mention the fact that there are vocals in some of his great works, and also a full vocal album with Dulce Pontes. 'Better' is just a point of view, that's based on everyone's opinions. If the album can get better, that wouldn't be 'fixing' these 'issues' as such. Ultimately I completely feel that, if anything we here is kinda different than usual, that's not an issue, but HOW they 'exactly' want it to be. Feel voice is kinda disjointed? well then, that would have been the exact effect they wanted to give. Feel the voice is merging with the orchestration? That's also how they wanted it to be. I wouldn't see that as an 'issue'. As Martin said well, I completely agree with what you said there, They've indeed succeeded to get the 'result' they aimed to get. I'd also like to point out, just because some other producer does these things in a different manner, doesn't mean if the methods are not the same, it's "wrong" as Dave said Exactly, if anything you find that's 'different' (not wrong) from what you hear usually, that's because, that's the technique preferred by Morricone, or the team themselves. And finally, Well, lol, as I said, it isn't something 'wrong' for people to actually notice, it maybe 'different' for some though. Sorry if I had come off rude, I was just expressing my thoughts on this, didn't mean to offend anyone ~Chris |
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